Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 03:31

Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

KoboldLord wrote:
tasonir wrote:I think it's useful for newbies to have relevant general info included in the guide. For example, suggested spell lists/light vs heavy armor suggestions. These could be found on other pages (all spell pages, the various armor tables) but it's good for newbies to have it discussed in the guide.


I'm afraid I have to disagree. For a beginner who is reading a character guide, clarity is vitally important. A beginner cannot be presumed to understand what parts of your guide are always going to be important, and what parts are only going to be important in certain circumstances or based on previous choices or lucky drops. If you don't yet have any criteria to judge what's important, everything looks important, so you start memorizing that big old wall o' text and start gearing up your naga for Statue Form when you're actually still on D3 looking for the Temple. Because there's a whole lot of text on Statue Form, and poison spit only got a single mention as a way to 'waste turns' while things approach to melee range instead of extensive emphasis as one of your essential early-game survival abilities.


I'll make a point of emphasizing early poison spit more - it is useful early on but by the mid-late game the damage is really fairly negligible against anything dangerous. A lot of the other claims here are already clearly explained in the guide - I have an explicit skill order which focuses first on unarmed, invocations, and shields. They'd have to completely ignore the "skill training order" section in order to make the mistake you mentioned.
KoboldLord wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think that would do much good, on account of confirmation bias. If you throw enough splats at the wall, eventually you're going to pull off a win or two just by dumb luck. A sufficiently persistent player will eventually rack up a couple wins with their Felid Chaos Knight that remains loyal to Xom no matter what, but that doesn't change the fact that felids are terrible and Xom is terrible and they aren't any better when you put them together.


I'm not making the claim that because it's been won once or twice that it's powerful, certainly any combination could be won...but attached morgue files provide a lot of detail about how the game was played and are great ways to learn about the character. Also, I have actually spent a fair amount of time talking to the people who have read and liked my guide. I haven't heard any newbies dislike it, of course you could claim they simply weren't good enough to know better, but they have said they have gotten farther with it than before. For direct evidence, check this YAVP:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4431

The first character he ever got a rune on, and he won? So he's never gotten past swamp/snake, and then cleared the rest of the mid/late game without dying. I'd say that's a very strong testament to chei nagas getting strong past midgame. I'll admit they can be a bit tricky at the start, of course ;)

KoboldLord wrote: She seems to actually be pretty popular, too, for some reason or other. I do think it's probably a good idea to make the theme of the guide clear in the title, though, as you mentioned. Certainly there's no drawback to making clear from the start that you only talk about Chei and never talk about anybody else.


for the incredible durability and extreme power, of course ;) I suppose I'll mention the guide is for chei only, though, as you say, no real harm in that. Won't be able to update it just now as I don't have the time but if someone else wants to they can, or I will tomorrow. I have no problem with people helping update and edit the guide, unless they do something silly like insult chei!
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 04:12

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

FWIW, I've played a few melee-focused Nagas of Chei. I think they're really quite fun. And I do them very differently than suggested in the guide.

I prefer the Wizard background. Use the spells in the starting book. Chei's str and int boosts help you cast, for example, silence and controlled blink while wearing dragon armour in the midgame or GDA in extended (without bothering with wizardy). For my part, I only use statue form in extended because I use bows and so rarely get hit by stuff.

I don't train shields. Instead I focus on bows. With Chei bows are a min delay at skill 14.

I also prefer weapons to unarmed, specifically polearms. Since moving is bad, polearms' reaching is great. In addition, Chei's +15 str gives you about +15% damage. (FYI, I don't think unarmed gets a str bonus.) People scoff at halberds but I think they're great in the midgame - 16 for min delay lets you train other skills, like bows or support magic.

I also prioritize stealth. I think doing so leads me to rarely use Chei's invocations. With stealth, it's easier to be picky about what battles fight. With the occasional exception of training a weapon skill to min delay or invocations to 10, stealth is usually the highest skill.

KoboldLord wrote:Chei is indeed kind of terrible.


Chei is amazing with Naga wizard hybrids. I swear. Good early game. Good midgame because they hit hard in melee and hit quickly in ranged combat. Once at XL13 they get a truly OP ability. In general, stealth works very well with Chei (because if the OOD wakes up you die or use resources, so don't let it wake up) and nagas do stealth really well. Chei is a good late game god because of fatness + heavy armour + big spells without putting big XP into spells. I've played many different builds in extended and hybrid Nagas of Chei are honestly easier for me than most others, DDs being the obvious exception.

I can't vouch for chei with any other species. I even can't get Tasonir's heavy melee build off the ground at all. But Chei Naga wizard hybrids is amazing.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 08:04

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

smock wrote:
KoboldLord wrote:Chei is indeed kind of terrible.


Chei is amazing with Naga wizard hybrids.

Is Chei good or bad? It depends good at what we're talking about. When you don't know which fights to avoid and when to flee, the raw power increases the survivability. So it can be a big help for a new player to get his first rune or win. However, he's pretty bad for streaking all runers.

That's why opinions vary when judging how Chei is good.
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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 19:09

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

galehar wrote:Is Chei good or bad? It depends good at what we're talking about. When you don't know which fights to avoid and when to flee, the raw power increases the survivability. So it can be a big help for a new player to get his first rune or win. However, he's pretty bad for streaking all runers.

That's why opinions vary when judging how Chei is good.


That's a good point. For the record, I can only get Chei to work on nagas. Nagas have already given up the option of fleeing from awake opponents to gain constriction, HP and superb stealth, all of which would seem to me as helpful in streaking all runers. (Hypothetically, of course: I've never gotten runes two games in a row. I have gotten runes on a Chei NaWi and then also the next Chei NaWi, tho.) Perhaps I only hold this opinion because I still need to learn to run!
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 21:05

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

I think the aversion to haste is the minigame balancing glow/contamination to avoid gaining mutations.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 21:25

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

Haste never mutates you by itself.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 21:55

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

I think a lot of people underestimate the +15 stats. 15 str is 15% damage, 15 int is a huge spellcasting boost, and 15 dex is a bit weaker but adds a fair amount of ev. I'd call it around a 30-40% character boost. Haste is 50%. But the 30-40% boost is passive, doesn't cost any mana or turns, and can't be forgotten by newbies. I just read a YASD in a mummy zig where the main advice was "you didn't haste early enough". Newbies won't forget to apply the +15 to all stats.

Playing nagas as wizards is certainly a powerful build, I just wouldn't consider them melee nagas, even if you raise melee later on (which you probably would). You may end up in a similiar state by the extended game, but you've played much more of a caster. I understand you abandon the wizard style fairly early on, but I think the early on is probably the more important part. I'm not mocking naga casters at all - I do intend to try some soon, but I'm not a good caster player (yet) and I have seen several of them which were very powerful. On the other hand someone who went physical skills but used a polearm throughout the whole game I would consider the same build, and I do mention you don't have to use unarmed, just that I find it easier for terrible players like myself. Crystal spear does a lot less damage to a character with 50 SH than one with 0 SH, and most of the game you're going to have <20 EV, and probably <10 EV.

The main reason I consider chei one of the best choices for nagas is because the main downside to nagas is you can't flee/kite mobs, and the main downside to chei is you can't flee or kite. I realize chei adds not using haste, but that only matters in the late game. You don't have haste pre/during lair, which is when most characters die. By the end you're powerful enough to not need it. It's like in magic the gathering, the concept of a "win-more" card. Yes, it's incredibly powerful. But you already are, and it doesn't really prevent deaths. The standard death avoidance is to flee with haste, but haste won't overpower chei's slowness. Cblink is a better choice to avoid battles.

For the record I am training up a mintoaur now, so I can (hopefully) post a YAVP of the default, standard build for comparison. Getting haste castable on a minotaur is rough, but I'll probably do it if I don't find a hasting wand. Or do minotaurs more typically use non-spell haste only? I guess either way would work.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
Streaks: 4 wins twice, 3 wins twice, 2 wins three times. Officially ruining greatplayer statistics since Jan 18th, 2015.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 22:13

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

I think chei is better for Tr or Og than for Na, for what that's worth.

edit: also Gh of chei is maybe actually good
Last edited by crate on Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 3rd May 2012, 23:58

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

I suppose I was thinking of frequent haste, but you are right, you probably won't need more than 1-2 potions that early on.

So you'd support making chei +20 to all stats? ;) If haste is a no brainer, then it should be further nerfed!
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
Streaks: 4 wins twice, 3 wins twice, 2 wins three times. Officially ruining greatplayer statistics since Jan 18th, 2015.
I wrote the Melee Naga Guide.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 04:09

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

Some questions people should maybe consider:
Why are all of these nagas of chei wearing heavy armour? Are nagas somehow good at wearing armour? Is dodging bad with chei?
Why are all of these nagas of chei using large shields? Is it worth the extra xp for them to do this? Won't someone punching want to use transmutations anyway, and most of those meld shields?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 08:09

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

mikee wrote:Some questions people should maybe consider:
Why are all of these nagas of chei wearing heavy armour? Are nagas somehow good at wearing armour? Is dodging bad with chei?
Why are all of these nagas of chei using large shields? Is it worth the extra xp for them to do this? Won't someone punching want to use transmutations anyway, and most of those meld shields?


I'll take a stab at these questions - let me know if you agree or disagree. :)

Melee characters who are not good at dodging (nagas are a large race) should wear heavy armor. Endgame, switch to medium armor since dragon armors are overall better and enable casting. It is entirely possible to use robes if you have statue form available and are willing to manage your mana a bit more carefully so that you can always stay in statue form. But nagas cannot be turned into a very high EV build, although they can get some EV for a secondary (or tertiary) defense. Using statue form will lower your EV, making it hard to have both, although it doesn't lower it greatly. I should probably run some wizmode nagas to get some hard data on this, but not tonight.

Nagas are great at wearing armor, if you consider -2 armor great. All their defenses are though, so you're stuck with it. It's mostly just "melee needs GDR".

Large shields are mainly just because I recommend unarmed, so using a shield is optimal. You could stop at a medium shield if you wanted, but nagas being large means you only have to take shields to 15 for a large shield, so I consider that to be a good investment. 50 SH makes up for your low EV and makes you both dodgy and armored.

Of the 3 end game transmutations, only blade hands melds shields. If you want to go blade hands, then yes, you should skip shields. I think that statue form is better overall, however, and should you want to use necromutation, it doesn't meld anything. Necromutation isn't really that suited for this build, but back when I was hyper-afraid of torment, I did 15 rune a necro melee naga, so it certainly can be done. I generally don't start as a transmuter, so I don't rely on spider/ice form/blade hands early on. If you start as a transmuter, using those in the early game is a great idea, although I would switch entirely to statue form once it's reliable. Since you're slowed, spider isn't useful, and ice form doesn't have any benefits aside from floating in water by that point, unless you have zero sources of rC+.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
Streaks: 4 wins twice, 3 wins twice, 2 wins three times. Officially ruining greatplayer statistics since Jan 18th, 2015.
I wrote the Melee Naga Guide.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 08:28

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I used to build melee nagas for dodging more than I do now, so I have at least one example of a high EV naga:

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 013421.txt

dodging is only at 20 and he has 26 EV, in crystal plate mail. I suppose lightening up the armor to a dragon armor, and if I didn't have -2dex, you might be able to see mid to high 30's EV at the highest, before phase shift. So it's somewhat feasible, but I do think you're not getting all that much for it. Training int would be better, or str if you never cast. After 34dex you need 4 dex to get the effect of one dex for most characters.

Would anyone consider dodging to be a better build than armor, not counting statue form? I can certainly see abandoning -EV armor once statue form is online, I mean wanting to go pure dodging all game long. Heavy armor does apply a speed penalty to unarmed attacks, but this is largely mitigated by having some armor skill, and is usually not much of a problem. On very bad rolls it can add a ridiculously large delay though - plate with armor skill 0 could add up to 1.2 turns, 12 aut, for example, but that requires 3 rolls to all hit their max at once. With favorable rolls it could add 0 delay.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
Streaks: 4 wins twice, 3 wins twice, 2 wins three times. Officially ruining greatplayer statistics since Jan 18th, 2015.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 20:33

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

tasonir wrote:I'll take a stab at these questions - let me know if you agree or disagree. :)

Well, they were rhetorical questions. I am not asking because I don't know how to play a naga of chei. Honestly, and this is not to hurt your feelings or anything, almost everything you wrote was either wrong or based on some weird assumptions.

Even at just first glance, nagas are no better with armour than they are at dodging. They have the same apt, and they have deformed body. So even a newbie probably would think that these are an even choice. A more experienced player might realize that armour hinders casting, which nagas have no problem with, and that with scales you can get good ac and good ev without heavy armour. And then there is the dex bonus of chei which is being partially ignored.

So I'm really not sure why you're so convinced about this suboptimal build. Probably you decided for yourself that this was good and when you won some games with it you concluded that it was the best for everyone, without seeking or even listening to the input of others. It may be true that this is the best way for you to play, for some reason. Objectively, though? I think you are giving bad advice and people are believing you.

It is entirely possible to use robes if you have statue form available and are willing to manage your mana a bit more carefully so that you can always stay in statue form.

Statue form is actually bad with chei because you can't haste to make up for the slowness. Staying in statue form all the time also sounds bad.
But nagas cannot be turned into a very high EV build, although they can get some EV for a secondary (or tertiary) defense.

I'm not sure what this means.. because nagas are large they cannot get 50 EV and therefore must rely on something else for defense? I just checked my last naga game. I have great defenses and all the skill levels I could possibly need, from just a 3 rune game. This is also without chei's dex boost.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/mikee ... 055551.txt

It's mostly just "melee needs GDR".

Please don't say this to people.

Of the 3 end game transmutations, only blade hands melds shields.

I don't know what this means or why it's important. The three most commonly used transmutations are spider form, ice form, and blade hands. What does 'end game' have to do with anything?

Since you're slowed, spider isn't useful, and ice form doesn't have any benefits aside from floating in water by that point, unless you have zero sources of rC+.

Do you know what these transmutations do? Honestly?
mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 4th May 2012, 21:09

Re: I'm annoyed by everyone calling the wiki outdated!

mikee wrote:So I'm really not sure why you're so convinced about this suboptimal build. Probably you decided for yourself that this was good and when you won some games with it you concluded that it was the best for everyone, without seeking or even listening to the input of others.


I'm betting that it's an artifact of constriction being comically overpowered at the moment. My last naga character was a conjuror with 0 short blades skill and 10 strength, and that character was still comfortably able to tab Norris, Rupert, Wiglaf, and Saint Roka to death with a dagger of venom, simply because constriction is just that crazy. It doesn't strike me as at all odd that the species with the crazy-go-nuts-overpowered half-implemented ability is currently the one best able to compensate for Chei's drawbacks, and it isn't like the writer has engaged in extensive comparison with alternative builds, either alternate species following Chei or alternate melee naga following anybody but Chei.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 02:02

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

there's a large amount of troubling rhetoric in mikee/KL's posts that I'd like to address without getting too bogged down in who's right/wrong [edit: I only stayed half true to this goal and did argue some mechanical points - oops!]. I won't use the forum quote feature to save space; mikee first:

"Well, they were rhetorical questions." Rhetorical questions are meant to provoke thought, and from thought conversation follows. They are generally used when the answer is obvious, but I think there is plenty of room for debate here, and presuming that you are correct before listening to my answers is a poor way to debate.

"without seeking or even listening to the input of others." You must have missed this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4138. You know, the thread where I extensively asked for input and feedback on my guide and incorporated it into the guide. Perhaps you're just upset I didn't ask you directly? The line right at the top said "If I'm totally wrong about something please clue me in!" So, you know, feel free. I'm *still* open to feedback, which is why I took the time to answer your "rhetorical" questions in depth.

"Statue form is actually bad... Staying in statue form all the time also sounds bad." I agree that statue form at all times isn't best, which is why I use dragon armor instead of robes, to keep armor high while not in statue form. However, statue form itself is anything but bad, it is incredibly potent. You are already not walking as a naga of chei, so movement speed in combat doesn't matter. How slow will you attack? Well, fists are .5 speed weapons, so slowed...it's 7.5. You know, basically equal to bardiches, axes, all those weapons everyone recommends all the time. The occasional spell/wand use will be slower, and something to keep in mind, but that's no crippling weakness.

" I just checked my last naga game. I have great defenses" You are an excellent player. I am not denying that or trying to ever claim I'm better than you are. I'm not. But your defenses are 26, 32, and 15. Those are not great. They're great for you, because you're great, and you can survive on much weaker characters. I am a terrible player. I tab nearly everything, early game, late game, mid game. So do a lot of other newbie players who need help learning the game. My naga was a 5 rune game, so I have a bit of an exp advantage, but my defenses are 50, 26, 52 (with 48% GDR instead of zero). (this morgue: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 013421.txt) That's simply a lot more survival for bad players like myself who rely on that to make up for being bad. You might not need GDR. Newbies often do. I recommend it to newbies.

As for transmutations, yes, I know what all the transmutations do. By 3 end game, I mean the higher level transmutations, blade hands, statue form, necromutation. I am not starting as a transmuter, so when I start learning transmutations, I'm already at the midgame, around level 15 or higher, and spider form and ice form are not longer useful. Spider form would be useful at all points for running, but chei blocks that. Spider form's evasion is great, but the base damage is 5 at all points in the game and I don't believe it benefits from UC skill. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would you consider using spider form to fight in extended? Not to escape, but actually fight monsters? When did you clear the tomb in ice form? These are early game spells, and I generally start as a warrior background. Transmuters can certainly use the guide, and learn spider/ice for the early game, they will just no longer need them once they get to the late game.

KL quotes: "I'm betting that it's an artifact of constriction being comically overpowered at the moment" I can certainly agree that yes, it is overpowered in .10, and it's great for getting through the lair. But after that it isn't really that much damage compared to your unarmed, especially if you have statue form online. There are a great many powerful melee creatures which are immune to constriction: giants, dragons, tentacled monstrosities (who constrict you back and can't be constricted)...this build has no trouble with them. So yes, it makes clearing lair much easier, but in the end game, not that much of a difference. I'll be glad to all rune this build in .11 if you like :)

I have been playing other builds, I just won last night with MiGl of okawaru, but perhaps something different yet closer, naga of someone else, or something else of chei, would be more relevant.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html
Streaks: 4 wins twice, 3 wins twice, 2 wins three times. Officially ruining greatplayer statistics since Jan 18th, 2015.
I wrote the Melee Naga Guide.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 02:20

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

[quote="tasonir"" I just checked my last naga game. I have great defenses" You are an excellent player. I am not denying that or trying to ever claim I'm better than you are. I'm not. But your defenses are 26, 32, and 15. Those are not great. They're great for you, because you're great, and you can survive on much weaker characters. I am a terrible player. I tab nearly everything, early game, late game, mid game. So do a lot of other newbie players who need help learning the game. My naga was a 5 rune game, so I have a bit of an exp advantage, but my defenses are 50, 26, 52 (with 48% GDR instead of zero). (this morgue: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 013421.txt) That's simply a lot more survival for bad players like myself who rely on that to make up for being bad. You might not need GDR. Newbies often do. I recommend it to newbies.[/quote]
I don't feel like talking about the rest, but take a look at this:

Your defensive skills:
  Code:
 - Level 22.2 Armour
 + Level 20.6 Dodging
 - Level 18.5 Shields


Mikee's defensive skills:
  Code:
 + Level 18.1 Dodging
 - Level 3.0 Shields

In other words, you have 37 more levels of defensive skills than he does. Meanwhile, while you were training those heavy defenses, mikee maxed fighting, got cBlink to 6% fail, got haste to 3% fail, and picked up almost every other useful utility spell. With 2 fewer runes and presumably less xp, he built a character that was much stronger than yours in every way but defensive stats. Big numbers look pretty, but there are better uses for xp.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 04:35

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I give you advice all the time, and I don't think you've ever followed any of it... even when you've asked for it in advice threads. This is ok for personal games, as it's your own decision to make. The advice you are giving seems to be influencing a lot of people, particularly people who rely only on the wiki for information, and this is a different matter. From what I've seen (and I browsed the thread you linked just now), you only accept input that's similar to what you already believe. Otherwise you probably would have been asking why so many players are saying chei is awful and does not actually have synergy with nagas. Also, statue form without haste isn't necessarily bad (it's certainly worse than with haste) but it surely has no synergy with chei. Why is it so highly recommend for all nagas of chei? I have no idea.

I may be a good player now - I have been playing too many games over many years - but if that is so, then why would I be good at tactics and not at knowing how to build a character? Surely good and bad players alike want to build their character as well as possible, and surely good and bad players can win with 26/32/15 defenses.

One other thing I would like to point out is that I think a lot of people misunderstand ice form. It actually does more damage than blade hands as your unarmed/fighting skills increase. In other words, ice form is actually 'better' later in the game, while blade hands is better early in the game. However, it is simpler to deal with only one slot melding and not having rF-, etc.
mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 09:01

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

tasonir wrote:As for transmutations, yes, I know what all the transmutations do. By 3 end game, I mean the higher level transmutations, blade hands, statue form, necromutation. I am not starting as a transmuter, so when I start learning transmutations, I'm already at the midgame, around level 15 or higher, and spider form and ice form are not longer useful. Spider form would be useful at all points for running, but chei blocks that. Spider form's evasion is great, but the base damage is 5 at all points in the game and I don't believe it benefits from UC skill. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would you consider using spider form to fight in extended? Not to escape, but actually fight monsters? When did you clear the tomb in ice form? These are early game spells, and I generally start as a warrior background. Transmuters can certainly use the guide, and learn spider/ice for the early game, they will just no longer need them once they get to the late game.


My favorite endgame transmutation is Dragon Form.

As for spider form damage, you are wrong. Unarmed combat skill is added to the base damage of every primary unarmed attack you make except bat form and maybe pigform. Spider form sets your base base (pre-UC) to 5, which is 2 higher than the base base that Nagas have (without claws mutation or whatever).

Spider form has synergy with Nagas
-It is fairly easy to get castable (+2 poison aptitude)
-It is a strong spell that gives you EV in exchange for AC you probably won't have much of early on anyway
-(most important) It gives you an escape option that is stronger than most characters, even non-nagas get

If you are planning on playing a Naga who uses transmutations and unarmed combat I really can't see any reason to choose a melee background over NaTm (of course I also don't see any reason to chooses chei over okawaru or whatever)
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 11:30

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

mikee wrote: Also, statue form without haste isn't necessarily bad (it's certainly worse than with haste) but it surely has no synergy with chei. Why is it so highly recommend for all nagas of chei? I have no idea.

+15 STR means more damage from the stone fists. But I kind of doubt you don't understand that already, so... I'm betting by "no synergy with Chei" you meant something else.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 12:21

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

pratamawirya wrote:+15 STR means more damage from the stone fists. But I kind of doubt you don't understand that already, so... I'm betting by "no synergy with Chei" you meant something else.


When you're talking about synergy with one of the gods, you also have to weigh any opportunity costs you're giving up. Yredelemnul is a bit weaker in the post-endgame, for instance, because you're not getting that fat +75% damage from a holy wrath weapon, so even if Yred provided a smaller damage bonus it still wouldn't compare to the same character converting to TSO.

With Chei, you have to compare EVERY asset against Haste, which is a ridiculous +50% bonus to everything. +15 strength might raise the damage of unarmed attacks in Statue Form a little bit, but not +50%. The synergy here is worse than the non-Chei comparison point, where you just have Statue Form and Haste. Synergy that is worse than the original starting point is not synergy at all.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 12:43

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Like tasonir pointed out, it doesn't really matter if you're slowed down while in Statue Form. You're already pretty slow with Chei anyway, and your stone fists are still quite fast with high UC. Yeah, all other actions will be slowed down badly, but most of the time, you only need your stone fists to solve your problems.

Statue Form + 15 additional STR means you can just tab whatever dudes blocking your way. As long as you're not so reckless and cocky as to put yourself in an open space with Cerebov and a bunch of Fiends or something, it's a somewhat safe way to kill dudes.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 13:28

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

pratamawirya wrote:Like tasonir pointed out, it doesn't really matter if you're slowed down while in Statue Form. You're already pretty slow with Chei anyway, and your stone fists are still quite fast with high UC. Yeah, all other actions will be slowed down badly, but most of the time, you only need your stone fists to solve your problems.

Statue Form + 15 additional STR means you can just tab whatever dudes blocking your way. As long as you're not so reckless and cocky as to put yourself in an open space with Cerebov and a bunch of Fiends or something, it's a somewhat safe way to kill dudes.


This isn't open to personal opinion. Haste being ridiculously good is a simple application of math. Statue Form + 15 strength may let you tab dudes all day long, but Statue Form + Haste lets you tab bigger dudes longer.

In every single case you should be comparing Chei bonuses to an alternative deity + Haste. Not Chei bonuses to Haste, or Chei bonuses to alt-deity bonuses. Haste stacks multiplicatively with Okawaru's Finesse, or Makhleb's summons, or Yred's bone dragons and profane servitors. Chei's bonuses are a nice little parcel, but they don't stack with anything that does not also stack with Haste, and they lock you out of the biggest and most cost-effective multiplicative boost in the game.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 13:40

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I was just responding to mikee's question of why some people recommend Statue Form for Nagas of Chei. A Naga of Chei using Statue Form is newbie-friendly. It is a good strategy (maybe not the best), and it is not hard for new players to understand and follow. What's bad about tabbing dudes without thinking because they barely scratch your skin? (That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point.)
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 14:10

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

KoboldLord wrote:Haste stacks multiplicatively with Okawaru's Finesse

Wait, what? Do you mean you can get your attack speed down to 1/4 of the normal?
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 15:32

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Unfortunately, no. You can have haste and finesse active simultaneously, but in that case, only finesse affects your attack speed.

(of course, that's something of a moot point, since both give you more power than anything chei has)
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 16:43

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Ah stupid me. Yes, KoboldLord was referring to the other benefits of haste stacking with finesse.

About haste; I've won 5 times so far, never as a Chei worshipper, but all were without haste or even Swiftness/Boots of Speed, so I can cope with slow movement speeds. I'm by no means a player like mikee and KoboldLord and I'm sure I play extremely sub optimally in contrast to them, still the game can be all-rune won without haste and that goes to show that it's pretty moot discussing whether a god disallowing you its use is bad or not. Yes, haste will make your character roughly 50% stronger. We all know that.

What I mean to say is, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not really important to everyone to end up streaking awesome chains of combos. It isn't to me. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know. I like what some people do and how driven they are about this game but please remember us casuals. :P
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 18:51

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I think the point was more that he isn't concerned with playing amazingly awesome games, but that he still wants to win. Getting first wins, first 15 rune wins are usually pretty important to new players, but other feats (streaks, speed runs, low turncounts) are only for the more die hard crawl players.

So it seems my build is much more heavily focused on defenses. That's how I, a relatively new player, ensure I don't die. Mikee, other more highly skilled players, go for more offensive/utility/speed options. I could put in a disclaimer about being a defense oriented build or some such.

I think the problem with Chei is that the underlying stat system is kind of poor. I submit the knowledge bot entry "Which stat" as evidence:

Henzell wrote:int


Maybe if str/dex gave slightly more useful benefits, chei would become worthwhile? Raise the levels at which dexterity's effects are halved (currently at 24, and then again at 34) and increase strength's damage bonus somewhat? In other words, I don't think chei herself needs much, if any, changes. Changing the stat system in such a way would make the game overall slightly easier, though. If you prefer reducing int somewhat that would bring them more into balance, but make the game harder, and somewhat unfairly only to casters.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 19:02

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

What I mean to say is, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not really important to everyone to end up streaking awesome chains of combos. It isn't to me. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know. I like what some people do and how driven they are about this game but please remember us casuals.

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It's more fun to ignore 'good' advice and play terribly and still win. Win ratios and streaks don't mean anything to me, much like achievements in other games. I just want to dick around and create a thematic character. If they win, all the better.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 19:05

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Actually, I find myself raising dex about as often as I raise int, and I occasionally raise str a bit also. EV is really nice, and dex gives it. If you aren't casting many spells, dex is often far more important than int.

I find it amusing, however, that you continually discard everything mikee says as "not applicable to you because you're not as good a player as he is." Good players are good, because, well, they play well. If they are telling you that what you are doing is not playing well, or what they are doing is better than what you are doing...chances are, they are right. Saying "I am bad" is a really sucky excuse, since it indicates that you are using suboptimal strategies as crutches to avoid learning how to play well.

the game can be all-rune won without haste and that goes to show that it's pretty moot discussing whether a god disallowing you its use is bad or not

"the game can be all-rune won without spells and that goes to show that it's pretty moot discussing whether a good disallowing you its use is bad or not"
"the game can be all-rune won without a god and that goes to show that it's pretty moot discussing whether gods are good or not"
"the game can be all-rune won by felids and that goes to show that it's pretty moot discussing whether felids are bad or not"
Get the point? Just because you -can- play suboptimally doesn't mean that discussions about playing optimally are moot. All-runing without haste is possible, of course, but it's much better to all-rune with haste. And when people are asking for or giving advice, the assumption should not be that they are aiming for some weird suboptimal build unless it is explicitly stated. Play how you want, but don't expect people to tell you that you're playing well or giving good advice.

It's more fun to ignore 'good' advice and play terribly and still win. Win ratios and streaks don't mean anything to me, much like achievements in other games. I just want to dick around and create a thematic character. If they win, all the better.

That's great. My above statement applies here very strongly indeed.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 19:10

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Blade wrote:I don't feel like talking about the rest, but take a look at this:

Your defensive skills:
  Code:
 - Level 22.2 Armour
 + Level 20.6 Dodging
 - Level 18.5 Shields


Mikee's defensive skills:
  Code:
 + Level 18.1 Dodging
 - Level 3.0 Shields

In other words, you have 37 more levels of defensive skills than he does. Meanwhile, while you were training those heavy defenses, mikee maxed fighting, got cBlink to 6% fail, got haste to 3% fail, and picked up almost every other useful utility spell. With 2 fewer runes and presumably less xp, he built a character that was much stronger than yours in every way but defensive stats. Big numbers look pretty, but there are better uses for xp.


I would say that a simpler, defensive/stat heavy build is useful for newbies. That 50% increase in strength from haste comes at the cost of getting stats which are passive instead of active, which is better for weaker players. I certainly agree that a 3 vs 5 rune comparison is unfair but I haven't ever played a 3 rune naga, I consider slime/abyssal runes to be "normal" runes, ie, not part of extended, and easy to get, so I usually grab them. The only 3 rune wins I had were my very first DDBe, and my recent MiGl, who was so painfully standard that I was too bored to keep playing him :P Also I kind of intentionally messed him up to see how bad casting on a minotaur actually is :)
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 20:22

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Well, Blade, I find it pointless discussing whether Chei's veto on Haste is good or bad, because believe it or not, I do understand that it's optimal to have Haste + other god benefits/not being slow moving. What I meant is people should play the game how they like it, not just the way it's optimal, eharper and me being a fine example of case #1. And yes, you say that people that read a guide want to win and I'll respect this opinion because I believe this too.

And whoa, whoa, whoa. Playing without haste comes in no way close to playing a Felid. This is pretty much on a very different level so it feels like apples and oranges, don't you think? But still, no matter how horrible they might be, people will win with them, even all rune them. Yes, it will be very very sub-optimal in contrast to that HEFE hybrid or MuSu or whathaveyou but it will happen occasionally.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 20:51

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I have no problem with people playing Chei, or writing guides about playing with Chei. Chei is a valid part of the game, much like Xom, or felids, or felids of Xom. Sometimes you want to do something wacky, and it's good that Crawl can support that.

If you start arguing that Chei or felids or Xom are strong options, though, you are going to run afoul of the fact that other people are going to notice that there is somebody wrong on the internet! And when somebody notices people being wrong on the internet, that somebody must never rest until every such person is thoroughly disabused of their incorrect notions. Being wrong on the internet is absolutely unacceptable, after all.

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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 20:58

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Felids probably aren't bad (I haven't played them enough to really form an opinion but I suspect that if you are patient enough they are actually quite strong).

Anyway I don't think Chei is as bad as ##crawl makes him out to be, though I do think on most characters he's worse than no god for certain stretches of the game. I do think Tasonir might be in a better position to talk about Chei's benefits and drawbacks if he would be more experienced with things other than na of chei, such as na of not-chei.
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Post Saturday, 5th May 2012, 21:45

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

tasonir wrote:I am a terrible player. I tab nearly everything, early game, late game, mid game. So do a lot of other newbie players who need help learning the game.

Suit yourself, but this isn't how you're going to improve. A guide is not just a recipe to win the game easily, it's also about learning it and becoming a better player. If you want to write a guide about how to build a character with strong defenses and passive powers so that you don't have to think about when to use them, you should state that explicitly in your guide.
Also, you might want to consider Ashenzari. It has been designed specifically to have a "passive" playstyle.

eharper256 wrote:
What I mean to say is, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not really important to everyone to end up streaking awesome chains of combos. It isn't to me. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know. I like what some people do and how driven they are about this game but please remember us casuals.

High Five!

It's more fun to ignore 'good' advice and play terribly and still win. Win ratios and streaks don't mean anything to me, much like achievements in other games. I just want to dick around and create a thematic character. If they win, all the better.

Guys, we are not trying to prevent you to play the game how you want to. If you want to play it badly, have fun doing it. If you want to write a guide about how to play the game badly, do it, but don't claim that it's anything else.
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Post Sunday, 6th May 2012, 08:50

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

Don't think I've ever claimed to be good or even offer good advice. Nor have I ever said streaking discussion is m00t. So its all good, right?
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Post Monday, 7th May 2012, 01:47

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I think this thread was been constructive when posts are about how worship Chei are somewhat less so when posts are about how great haste is relative to Chei's features. I guess by constructive I mean "less vitriolic". In any case, thanks to the vast majority commenters who are not being not vitriolic.

I hope that the guide with it's new warning about Chei's disadvantages is now sufficiently about how to play a Chei naga that hits things. Tasonir: I might recommend changing the guide's title to "melee Naga of Chei" or whatnot, as much of the guide is focused on Chei. Also, some earlier comments by Galehar (and others?) might be reasonable to include at the end of the "advantages of Chei section". The comments were to the effect that Chei may be powerful relative to other gods for players that don't know too well how to haste or how to run away. Just as Nemelex is not generally recommended to newbies, Chei might not satisfy players who have already learned to leverage haste. The theme that player experience matters does seem to run through many posts, so this might be a lesson for the guide.

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Post Monday, 7th May 2012, 04:50

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

I did in fact include such a sentence or two already (in the benefits of chei, end of first paragraph): "This leads to a very simple playstyle which is based on raw power, and does not use buffs that are generally considered no-brainers. This can be helpful for those who are new, but this build is still no where near as simple as the very straightforward Berserker."

Basically it's easier then buffing when it's dangerous, but I have to admit, berserkers are pretty easy ;) Although I did die many times due to the slow effect after berserk, but in any case, it can stay for now. I don't blame you at all for not finding it, the guide is 20k. That's the main reason I cut the guide down 2k today from the previous 22k, and I think I will try to shorten some more of it by linking to pre-existing wiki pages like I did with the link to chei, and not re-explaining chei's abilities. I did explain them a bit more in depth, but I think I'll just go extend the descriptions on chei's own page at some point. In any case, getting it down to around 15k is a goal, but I have no real timeframe in mind :)
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Post Monday, 7th May 2012, 16:24

Re: Cheibriados (split from the wiki thread)

If you're going to explain Chei's abilities in detail, (and it is generally accepted that your explanations are correct in terms of what the ability is/does/when to use it) than it would make much more sense to be added to the Cheibrados wiki page than exclusively in your guide. Your guide could then link to that section for the explanations on how and when to use his abilities and it would also be available to players who just look chei up anyways.

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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 18:30

Chei

Southpaw wrote:Minotaurs are stronger followers of Chei than Nagas are anyways, the only problem is you're playing a minotaur...why did you pick Chei?


Care to state any reason why? Nagas have 0 in magic aptitudes and can fairly easily take advantage of the int bonus to get important spells like controlled blink castable. I don't think minotaurs would be nearly as good at doing that.
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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 19:13

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Moving at 2.0 turns per space makes positioning much less painful than moving at 2.8 turns per space. You can also get up to level 5 spells castable with chei int with very little investment as long as you're in light-ish armour (which really most chei characters should be).

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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 19:27

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I'm surprised the hear that minotaurs are stronger followers of Chei than are nagas. Is this the opinion of most of the better players?

For someone who wanted to worship Chei, what might be a few suggested race/background combos?

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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 19:32

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I just feel like chei worshippers shouldn't be moving at all if the monsters around them are truly dangerous, so the 2.8 speed is better for the significant increase to slouch damage. And Cblink is a level 7 spell, so being able to do up to 5 isn't enough :)

I've learned shatter on one of my melee chei nagas, although that's pushing it a bit. But level 7 spells are pretty easy to do. Once you have Cblink up there's no longer any reason to walk during combat at all. While I'm horribly biased and a lot of people seem to hate chei, if you do want to play chei, I recommend my guide: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... Naga_guide

Casters are also a viable choice of course, I just personally prefer melee.
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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 19:49

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I move around in combat a lot with chei, it's still good as long as you're not a naga. Slouch is also not even the best chei ability imo, that would be bend time.

If you want to go chei pick a background with a book that cares about spellpower--stuff like any of the elementalists or conjuror. You can do fine with pretty much any race though I don't see the point to sp or ce or felid of chei.

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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 19:55

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

True, and I didn't say you were wrong, just that my playstyle is fairly different. You haven't played a naga, and you do 3 rune games. I'm more interested in 15 rune, high score games, and I love nagas. It's not so much that we're right or wrong, just that we're approaching cheibriados from entirely different sides. I haven't done much chei followers who weren't nagas, so I am not used to having a 2.0 movement speed. Maybe you can get away with moving more. I loathe moving on a naga unless the mobs are trivial. Most mobs are trivial, and so moving isn't too bad. Then late game when you have more dangerous mobs, you CBlink. The only dangerous portion where you are going to want to step but shouldn't are mid game packs of centaurs/yakataurs most of the time. Temporal distortion is generally enough for them.

I think I'll try a non-naga of chei next.
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Post Tuesday, 8th May 2012, 20:40

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

I'll qualify my statement a little further:

The Minotaur's retaliatory headbutt has a chance of working when he is struck in melee (most enemies are melee after all) and that chance is directly related to the characters strength and dexterity stats. Chei's stat boosts grant a rather significant increase in the chance of this going off (for reference, look at this chart which displays the percent chance of retaliation for a range of different stat values. Just pick one set of stats and compare the percent chance of that to the boosted chance from chei's +15.

The movespeed difference between a minotaur and naga is not really that important. It doesn't change slouch damage too significantly and it has already been stated that slouch isn't even chei's most useful of abilities for a melee character.

Now, you could make an argument that the naga's superior aptitudes in spellcasting make it a better choice but you must consider that the minotaur's better aptitudes in everything physical gives it the extra experience necessary to make up for the difference (at least, mostly make up for it). Especially when you consider that the +15 int will do most of the work for you in getting the necessary supporting spells online.

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Post Wednesday, 9th May 2012, 05:35

Re: The 'Questions too small to need their own thread' threa

Being more of a direct formula than a spreadsheet kind of guy, I'd takeaway from that table that chei gives +30% headbutt at max piety, which is pretty huge. And in end game, high stats, a chei follower will have roughly 70% headbutt.

Str does increase constriction damage, but I don't think dex does, and I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes. I know constriction is being moved to xl 13+, not sure if the formula is/has changed in trunk for actual damage though. Maybe I'll do a mino of chei next, I was thinking merfolk just because I wanted to dodge, but a dex mino would have the highest headbutt as well :)
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