Merfolk Hunters / start with spear ?

[omegasean]

So i started a MFHU recently even though it was not "recommended".

I started with Javelins and grabbed a spear, this build rocks !

If the developers changed the starting weapon to a spear for MF I believe this could be a recommended build.

The skill in throwing for MF is zero - however they start with skill lvl 4 which is more then enough to hit targets early game.

what do you guys think ?

[Blade]

Hunters are (theoretically) ranged. They should not get a good melee weapon from the beginning.

[BlackSheep]

And really, the reason your MfHu rocks is that you "grabbed a spear" for your character with +4 aptitude in Polearms. Had you not gotten so lucky as to find one until after you ran out of javelins, you might have felt differently about the combination.

[XuaXua]

I prefer tridents. You will too.

[Jabberwocky]

They should not get a good melee weapon from the beginning.

The only thing which makes a spear even decent is reaching. It's not a huge upgrade from a short sword.

[KoboldLord]

Starting with a spear is better than starting with a hand axe, mace, falchion, or short sword. Making Hu as good at meleeing things as Fi seems a little off, by which I mean completely insane.

Now, now, the fighter can always be removed to compensate for the buff. If all it takes to equal a fighter is picking up a spear off the ground, then there's no reason to even have fighters.

[Blade]

Yeah, but blah blah nobody wants to remove them for some reason

[XuaXua]

Yeah, but blah blah nobody wants to remove them for some reason

Next they'll get rid of mountain dwarves.

I wonder if Spears should be reduced in melee combat effectiveness, but better for throwing.

[ElectricAlbatross]

I wonder if Spears should be reduced in melee combat effectiveness, but better for throwing.

Who throws spears anyway?

[XuaXua]

I wonder if Spears should be reduced in melee combat effectiveness, but better for throwing.

Who throws spears anyway?

Well, you CAN. I am not sure the difference between Spears and Javelins other than Javelins stack and aren't for melee, and spears don't stack and can be thrown or used for melee.

[Blade]

Congratulations. You just said that you didn't understand the difference and then stated the difference.

(also, javelin has higher base damage)

[cerebovssquire]

Even if Fi gets removed this would just make Hu a much better Gl. I still think it's a bad idea. And what is the reasoning the OP provides? "MfHu is a good build with a spear, therefore we should give it a spear" or "it's good to have a lot of recommended builds"? These are not exactly a killer arguments.

[omegasean]

Thanks for the replies !

Starting with a spear and javelins does not seem like too much to ask.

MFHU starting with spear and javelins would be themantic.

i don't think they would OP they start with low str. and int. and also no god / cannot berserk.

I don't see why they have to start with a short sword - just because thats the way it is is a bad argument.

[BlackSheep]

Hunters get to pick a ranged weapon, which is a powerful option. If you want to pick your starting melee weapon, you have to choose one of the melee oriented backgrounds.

[mageykun]

Frankly, I think we're already too generous with this "pick whatever starting weapon you want" nonsense in too many jobs. We should have less of this, not more.

Struggling with the wrong weapon until you finally find a piece of floor trash to train up the weapon skill you actually want is part of the game. (hipster smiley of arrogance- go!).

[Blade]

It's not because "that's the way it is." It's because hunters have a very specific role -- that of primarily ranged combat. They need to pick up melee to support this role, at least in the early game, but their end goal is (theoretically) ranged.

Starting with a spear and javelins is too much to ask because that is far more than any other class gets. You start with a melee weapon and pick up stones/needles/bullets/darts/javelins from the floor, or you start with javelins and pick up a falchion/spear/mace/hand axe/quarterstaff from the floor. Every class has this dichotomy; the ones that start with both (hunters, assassins, artificers, etc.) have one that is notably weak (short sword, dagger, staff). Thematic doesn't matter. You're not a spearman/javelineer. You are a javelineer. You can (and should) pick a spear up, but you absolutely should not be handed one.

(also, base stats barely matter, and all that starting without a god means is that you have to wait until d:4 to grab a god)

[smock]

While it would be thematic, I think Crawl has moved away from having species choice influence background gear. For example, KoHu used to start with darts, if I recall, making them worse than enchanters. This might be why some backgrounds now get to chose their weapon. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not. I fully support effort to make Crawl more thematic in other ways, though!

The good news is that the MeHu's first gnoll pack, probably hanging out on D3 waiting to get pierced with a javelin, will probably provide it with a spear or halberd.

[XuaXua]

I feel starting gear is kind of irrelevant, unless it is a book.
Other starting gear is short-term and replaceable.

The Zealot classes or Monk (bonus piety; should be classified as Zealot, IMHO) are exceptions; pre-worships are locked in due to early game death from punishment, and monks gets a great kickstart bonus.

What class does (mostly) long-term is determine initial allocation of Str/Int/Dex, and IMHO, that should be an aspect of race, except that it would make classes even less relevant.

[cerebovssquire]

I feel starting gear is kind of irrelevant, unless it is a book.

lesson of the day: don't trust your feelings, instead use other methods, ie thinking

If I really have to elaborate on this: how often do you find 6 +1 javelins and throwing nets or falchions or tridents or darts of dispersal and scrolls of blinking etc. before D:3, and even when you do, would you claim that that it was a find you could have counted on (if you do I find it hard to take that seriously).

[KoboldLord]

Hunter and assassin starting gear is great. Fighter starting gear is terrible, and gladiator not much better. Axing one of the latter two leaves enough design space so there's at least potential for something worthwhile there, and we could mash everything that fighter, gladiator, and hunter gets together into one background and it still wouldn't be better than starting as a berserker.

[galehar]

Alright, the original suggestion has been addressed as a terrible idea and the topic is just going wildly in every directions. I'm locking this.