Ziggurat Zagger
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Dungeon Master
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Grimm wrote:I have a notion to make the Lab more interesting by adding a Theseus-style aspect in which you somehow leave a trail and this gives you an advantage in finding the Mino sooner or being able to leave. I can't figure out how it would actually work though.
Sewers Scotsman
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Dungeon Master
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Slime Squisher
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Blades Runner
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Dungeon Master
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Abyss Ambulator
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nor do I think it should allow mapping/autoexplore, as that would just turn it into the "Press o, go get sandwich" vault.
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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BlackSheep wrote:What exactly is the underlying problem?
Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:my preferred solution to the underlying problem would be to make getting to the minotaur also a race, in one way or another.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Grimm wrote:Perhaps you could drop stones to "pin" the map and stop a section from rotting. That would require everyone to pick up stones though. Maybe any item would work to pin the map?
Tartarus Sorceror
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dpeg wrote:I realise I sound like someone who's defending Nethack's Sokoban.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Grimm wrote:I'd like to suggest that in this thread we stick to coming up with new ideas for Lab. I understand some people want it gone but that's a separate issue and much less likely to happen than seeing it improved.
Building on One Eyed Jack's suggestion, and bringing the Lab closer to its classical model, why not have the exit generate only on the Mino's death? and you have to go through the maze to exit - it's not at the center.
Ziggurat Zagger
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nicolae wrote:The thing that bugged me about Sokoban wasn't that it was a sudden genre shift, going from a hack-and-slash dungeon crawl to a contemplative sliding block puzzle; I actually liked a brief new style of play, a new way to think about things. What bugged me about Sokoban is that if you fuck up Sokoban even just a little bit the whole branch is ruined, unless you're willing to make things even worse with the Luck penalties for digging and making boulders, so I'd always have to use a cheat sheet and go through it tediously to make sure I didn't push a boulder one square too far and ruin everything. Puzzle minigames aren't bad, it's unforgiving puzzle minigames. If you go down the wrong hallway in a labyrinth, you can just turn around.
Swamp Slogger
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Vestibule Violator
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Grimm wrote:I'd like to suggest that in this thread we stick to coming up with new ideas for Lab. I understand some people want it gone but that's a separate issue and much less likely to happen than seeing it improved.
Dungeon Master
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XuaXua wrote:Back before the algorithm was changed (I think it was changed; mazes seem a bit easier now), I'd bring stones in and drop one stone at an intersection entrance to note that I had gone that way. It worked for a bit.
Ziggurat Zagger
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galehar wrote:XuaXua wrote:Back before the algorithm was changed (I think it was changed; mazes seem a bit easier now), I'd bring stones in and drop one stone at an intersection entrance to note that I had gone that way. It worked for a bit.
The maprot has been changed, the labyrinth generation algorithm hasn't been. The maprot is smoother (happens every turn instead of every 20 turns) and generally less aggressive. The rotting also depends on the distance to the player. Finally, the maprot algorithm is the same as the one used in the abyss.
What I don't like much in Labyrinths is how wall shifts are almost never noticeable. They don't happen very often (one chance in 10 every 20 turns), and most likely at the other end of the map. The location chosen for the change is specifically weighted for unmapped area (effects.cc:1575). How about we make them more frequent, remove the unmapped weighting, but print a message only if it happens nearby?
Dungeon Master
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XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.
Ziggurat Zagger
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galehar wrote:XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.
Why? It has as much chance as opening up a passage as closing one.
Dungeon Master
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XuaXua wrote:galehar wrote:XuaXua wrote:I think that might serve only to frustrate, but I've been known to be wrong.
Why? It has as much chance as opening up a passage as closing one.
As long as pathing from current location to end stairs is always available, I'm fine with it.
Sewers Scotsman
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Abyss Ambulator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Confidence Interval wrote:What about changing the disposition of the loot in the labyrinth so that, instead of having it all in a pile by the exit with the Minotaur sitting on top, it's scattered at random around the labyrinth?
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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dpeg wrote:5. Distinguish between floor types (never stepped, stepped on recently, some time ago).
Abyss Ambulator
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xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Blade wrote:xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.
Sure, let's make a nonsensical and time-consuming distinction just to give one class "flavour"
Spider Stomper
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XuaXua wrote:Blade wrote:xuaxua wrote:5.1 Disciples of Xom get altogether different tiles to indicate floor use.
Sure, let's make a nonsensical and time-consuming distinction just to give one class "flavour"
Xom is not a class, it's a choice.
Barkeep
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dpeg wrote:[2] The minotaur could hide behind a corner or, easier to code, camouflage (i.e. be a wall) until you're there.
Crypt Cleanser
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KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.
Sewers Scotsman
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mikee wrote:KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.
Well the hermeneutics of Crawl are also approached didactically (see: the tutorial, for instance), and I see no reason not to make these components homogenous.
Pandemonium Purger
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Shoals Surfer
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mikee wrote:KoboldLord wrote:Crawl design philosophy is a heuristic, not a straightjacket. That two-minute interlude isn't hurting anything, and the histrionic claims of Crawl-impurity are frankly baffling.
Well the hermeneutics of Crawl are also approached didactically (see: the tutorial, for instance), and I see no reason not to make these components homogenous.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Confidence Interval wrote:I hadn't appreciated that the development of Crawl was approached in such an intellectually sophistic fashion.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Lair Larrikin
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Dungeon Master
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molari wrote:While, like many people, the very idea of mazes in otherwise enjoyable games gives me the vapours (I recall many games in the 90s chucking a maze level in just because) I think the crawl labyrinth could be made much less tedious by removing the wall shifts. What was the thinking behind including these I wonder? Are mazes not infuriating enough on their own?
Even if you enjoy mazes as a concept, having to battle against simulated forgetfulness (map rot) and insanity (wall shifts) while doing them just strikes me as very strange.
Ziggurat Zagger
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While, like many people, the very idea of mazes in otherwise enjoyable games gives me the vapours (I recall many games in the 90s chucking a maze level in just because) I think the crawl labyrinth could be made much less tedious by removing the wall shifts. What was the thinking behind including these I wonder? Are mazes not infuriating enough on their own?
Lair Larrikin
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