Monster generation


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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 13:24

Monster generation

Why are monsters other than initially generated on a level generated at all? What's the purpose of this in the game?

I just ask because I think it adds tedium and some drawbacks, but maybe I'm unaware of some benefits.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 13:27

Re: Monster generation

Cleared areas should not be 100% safe. Hence monster generation. Many roguelikes actually do this the other way around: the levels start out almost empty, then are populated over time by random spawns.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 13:28

Re: Monster generation

I may be wrong (being fairly new to this game) but i think, as far as i've understood, that monster generation beyond initial level generation is there to force players not to delay too much on a safe floor..

Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 14:03

Re: Monster generation

Galefury wrote:Cleared areas should not be 100% safe.


Well, that's all well and good, but why not? I've tried to come up with reasons that benefit gameplay for this and can't really come up with any. Only remotely sensible one would be "don't make up stairs a perfect get-out-of trouble card", but how often someone escapes to a floor he was able to clear completely earlier and something threatening spawns close by? Besides that, the Ecumenical Temple already behaves like that and no one complained about it making anything less fun.

monster generation beyond initial level generation is there to force players not to delay too much on a safe floor..

that's a job much better suited to hunger, it's not like single level appropriate spawns can force someone who cleared a floor to go down... and besides, since victory dancing has been dealt with, there doesn't seem to be any time-consuming behaviour a character could engage in that warrants being curbed by monster interruptions. Maybe except stashing, but people do it anyway, going all the way to the Lair and back again over and over again. Come to think of it, maybe people would do less of that if they wouldn't have any reason to worry about leaving items on the ground on any safe level.

Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 15:26

Re: Monster generation

Galefury wrote:Cleared areas should not be 100% safe.


Why not?

I'm not talking about OOD monster generation. That's fine. Generating random monsters, well, very, very rarely threatening.

If the aim is to make "escape via stairs" a little more dangerous for whatever reason, I think stronger spawns are needed. Maybe less of them, but stronger.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 15:37

Re: Monster generation

I think it's mostly about making pillar dancing and kiting a little more risky.

Really interesting situations mostly come up when you are already in a situation you cant easily deal with and then something unexpected happens. For example you are retreating from a fight you cant handle into known territory, and suddenly meet another monster that blocks your escape path. It doesn't happen often, but often enough to be worth it IMO.

One big difference between monsters generated upon entering the level and monsters generated later is that the initial level population starts out sleeping, while the late-comers are generated awake. This is fairly important. Removing the late spawners would mean some of the initial population would have to be generated awake.

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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 16:59

Re: Monster generation

Hm, it seems that this really is a question that touches on two issues that are similar, yet not the same.

1) generation of new monsters on a level the player is currently exploring

2) generation of new monsters on levels the player fully explored and cleared.

As Galefury explained, there are plenty of good reasons for 1), but IMO they don't really apply for 2). I think it's worth considering removing the 2nd case, as the game would become a slight bit smooth if every long journey through the dungeon to a shop/stash/a previously skipped level wouldn't be stopped by a less-than-exciting encounter with a lone rat.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 17:36

Re: Monster generation

Those lone rats provide food for long journeys back to stash.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 17:51

Re: Monster generation

Grimm wrote:Those delicious rats provide food for long journeys back to stash.


ftfy
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Post Wednesday, 18th April 2012, 21:15

Re: Monster generation

XuaXua wrote:
Grimm wrote:Those delicious rats provide food for long journeys back to stash.


ftfy

Only if you are a "gourmet" eater.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 15:58

Re: Monster generation

Jabberwocky wrote:
Grimm wrote:Those delicious rats provide food for long journeys back to stash.

Only if you are a "gourmet" eater.


Only if you pay attention to flavor (both game- and taste-wise).
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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 17:24

Re: Monster generation

It sounds like the solution in that case would be an option in autotravel to ignore certain threats (and a warning to use at your own risk).

Actually, maybe an "ignore and keep moving" option. your autotravel stops with a rat at the edge of LOS? Maybe just tap the spacebar, and you keep moving and pretend you didn't notice. It's less tedious than killing it, but doesn't let people ignore things that might fry them.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 17:46

Re: Monster generation

IronJelly wrote:It sounds like the solution in that case would be an option in autotravel to ignore certain threats (and a warning to use at your own risk).

Actually, maybe an "ignore and keep moving" option. your autotravel stops with a rat at the edge of LOS? Maybe just tap the spacebar, and you keep moving and pretend you didn't notice. It's less tedious than killing it, but doesn't let people ignore things that might fry them.


What if it is a glowing shapeshifter in disguise or a summoned creature (vampire or otherwise)?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 18:28

Re: Monster generation

Then you'll find out really freaking quickly and can decide what to do from there.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 18:35

Re: Monster generation

IronJelly wrote:It sounds like the solution in that case would be an option in autotravel to ignore certain threats (and a warning to use at your own risk).

Actually, maybe an "ignore and keep moving" option. your autotravel stops with a rat at the edge of LOS? Maybe just tap the spacebar, and you keep moving and pretend you didn't notice. It's less tedious than killing it, but doesn't let people ignore things that might fry them.


I haven't tried it myself, but I think you could use runrest_ignore_monster. You'd want to comment/uncomment such lines on a character-by-character basis, as all it takes as a parameter is range. So with setting 2, you'll keep travelling unless you end up next to it, in which case you smash it and continue.
  Code:
runrest_ignore_monster = rat:2

This will probably apply to all types of rat, so use with caution.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 19:03

Re: Monster generation

Also note that trivial monsters no longer appear in late D.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 20:40

Re: Monster generation

Blade wrote:Also note that trivial monsters no longer appear in late D.


That is a matter of opinion.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 21:06

Re: Monster generation

XuaXua wrote:
Blade wrote:Also note that trivial monsters no longer appear in late D.


That is a matter of opinion.

33d24bf | Raphael Langella | 2012-04-11 23:53:42 +0200

Remove the chance for easy monsters in lower D.
I'm not really sure what are going to be the consequences of this change.
At the very least, it should remove trivial monsters from the lower dungeon,
but it might also create more dangerous one and increase the global XP value
of the dungeon, so we should keep an eye on it.

It's a matter of the devs made the freaking commit a week ago. When I say things like "x no longer happens," what I usually mean is "Recently this changed." I thought that would be fairly obvious. Apparently it wasn't.

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 23:34

Re: Monster generation

Blade wrote:
XuaXua wrote:
Blade wrote:Also note that trivial monsters no longer appear in late D.


That is a matter of opinion.

33d24bf | Raphael Langella | 2012-04-11 23:53:42 +0200

Remove the chance for easy monsters in lower D.
I'm not really sure what are going to be the consequences of this change.
At the very least, it should remove trivial monsters from the lower dungeon,
but it might also create more dangerous one and increase the global XP value
of the dungeon, so we should keep an eye on it.

It's a matter of the devs made the freaking commit a week ago. When I say things like "x no longer happens," what I usually mean is "Recently this changed." I thought that would be fairly obvious. Apparently it wasn't.

XuaXua probably meant that what constitutes a "trivial monster" is a matter of opinion.

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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 21st April 2012, 10:28

Re: Monster generation

Even the most trivial monster can be relevant if it appears at the wrong time.

On the orb run, spending a turn killing that rat that's blocking the corridor is one turn you're not running towards the stairs, and one more turn in which that Pan Lord can torment/firestorm/paralyze you.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 21st April 2012, 18:15

Re: Monster generation

Although in that case, you'd probably just cBlink past the rat and keep going. And such an instance is a rather extreme edge case and the Pan Lord in question is just as, if not more likely, to use that turn to do something non-threatening, like Summon Butterflies or Magic Dart. Besides, 99% of the time you see an out of depth rat (in this case, way too deep for it's own good), it's either by itself or in a completely irrelevant location among other monsters or even a convenient one for doing stuff like blocking Yaktaur fire. The only time I have the issue you describe with rats is when they block me from fleeing Orc Priests, Ogres, Sigmunds, and other early game threats, at which point they're depth appropriate.
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