?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)


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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2012, 18:27

?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

I fully believe enchant scrolls should be usable on Enhancer Staves. It's a staff; it's always at +0/+0. It's sometimes treated as branded, depending on the staff. Why do only rods get this benefit (double-benefit since it's one value and submitted through recharge scrolls)?
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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2012, 19:45

Re: Rods as maces

XuaXua wrote:I fully believe enchant scrolls should be usable on Enhancer Staves. It's a staff; it's always at +0/+0. It's sometimes treated as branded, depending on the staff. Why do only rods get this benefit (double-benefit since it's one value and submitted through recharge scrolls)?


Enhancer staves are already pretty awesome. The branding is generally better than normal brands.

It might be kind of neat if they were less awesome off the ground but could be enchanted to provide both better combat and better enhancing stuff, but I'm not sure it'd really matter much -- generally when I'm playing a staff character, I'm drowning in ?EW anyhow.
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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2012, 20:06

Re: Rods as maces

njvack wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I fully believe enchant scrolls should be usable on Enhancer Staves. It's a staff; it's always at +0/+0. It's sometimes treated as branded, depending on the staff. Why do only rods get this benefit (double-benefit since it's one value and submitted through recharge scrolls)?


Enhancer staves are already pretty awesome. The branding is generally better than normal brands.

It might be kind of neat if they were less awesome off the ground but could be enchanted to provide both better combat and better enhancing stuff


I think enhancer staves with power scaled to the +/+ from Enchant Weapons would work well and would 100% justify the very common discovery of duplicate enhancer staves (so far the only reasons for duplicate staves are Nemelex, Elyvilon and Jiyva).
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Post Tuesday, 20th March 2012, 22:12

Re: Rods as maces

On the other hand, right now if you find an enhancer staff early enough, you can beat jellies to death with them without risking your regular weapons since they can't be corroded.
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 00:08

Re: Rods as maces

TwilightPhoenix wrote:On the other hand, right now if you find an enhancer staff early enough, you can beat jellies to death with them without risking your regular weapons since they can't be corroded.


Wait, is this really a thing? I've always thrown rocks at them, because I don't much like my armour getting corroded either.

Anyhow, I don't think jelly-bashing utility is common enough to be a big push either way on this issue...
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 01:43

Re: Rods as maces

njvack wrote:Anyhow, I don't think jelly-bashing utility is common enough to be a big push either way on this issue...


I mention Jivya and the other dieties because sacrificing duplicates is the only way you'd have a use for a duplicate staff, but I know you understood that.

With Enchant Weapon Scrolls usable on staves and variable +/+ (or even starting at negatives -/-), you
(1) give more utility to enchant weapon scrolls
(2) more utility to staff skill and id scrolls for identification of staff variants (even a small amount of utility is more than now)
(3) more variability between enhancer staves of the same type for attacking purposes
(4) the opportunity to scale the enhancer bonus of the staff based on +
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 01:59

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

Actually: staff users would probably enchant one, maybe two, staves in total for the game -- and likely few other weapons. It might make more sense to use ?Recharging for this; otherwise, the relevant enchant scrolls would just be too common.

I'm still not totally sold that the benefit would be worth the added complexity, though. I suspect their lack of enchantability isn't some random omission...?
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 03:20

Re: Rods as maces

njvack wrote:Wait, is this really a thing? I've always thrown rocks at them, because I don't much like my armour getting corroded either.

Anyhow, I don't think jelly-bashing utility is common enough to be a big push either way on this issue...



It is. Rather uncommon unless you're a staff user attempting Slime Pits who relies on an enhancer (or lacks an artifact/well enchanted lajatang), but since enhancer staves can't have their enchantments changed, they can't corrode. So if your armor is safe, don't have armor, or don't mind damage to that armor (say, just some trash pieces for jellies to corrode while your real stuff is safe), you can melee the jellies with the enhancer staff without worries.

Early game it's really rare since enhancer staves are really rare until mid-game or so. Hence grabbing a sling is generally a better idea for a non-caster.
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 04:30

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

njvack wrote:I'm still not totally sold that the benefit would be worth the added complexity, though. I suspect their lack of enchantability isn't some random omission...?


What complexity? Enhancer staves actually make things more complex as it stands by being the sole exception to the rule (not counting artefacts).
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 05:18

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

Okay. Let's look at this logically. Currently, magic staves are un-enchantable. This has the following effects:
  • They're corrosion proof. This has limited use, but is mostly moot as staff wielding casters have other ways to deal with jellies.
  • Many pure mages have no use for enchant weapon scrolls, with no ammo or weapon to enchant. You can see this as a bad thing (wasted resources) or a good thing (one less thing to have to collect, purchase, stash, manage etc).
  • Denies staff users to hit and dam bonuses. However, the staff's effect is more than a fair trade off for a minor melee penalty. Especially in the case of the elemental staves where the lost enchantment is completely offset by the added melee effects. So moot.
What changes occur if we make staves enchant-able?
  • Casters use spells on jellies instead of their staves.
  • Enchant weapon scrolls get a use for pure casters- dump em all into your staff.
  • Staff melee gets a slight, unneeded buff.
None of which is particularly interesting. Enchanting staves for melee doesn't add any depth.

Now, if we allow enchantment and tie the magic effects of the staff to the enchantment level, you effect balance. You can nerf or buff staves by what enchantment level is made equivalent to today's standard (ie- does a staff of fire now equate to tomorrows +0 staff of fire, or +9?), and further by how you scale the changes between levels. This gets complicated quickly though, as you'd have to introduce fractional versions of all the staff boosts and bonuses- things like fire boosts and wizardry that as of now stack in neat increments that are fairly easy for the player to count. I'm not sure confusing that adds anything or is desirable.

If we use scrolls of charging instead of enchant weapon, it improves the situation slightly, in that you're faced with the interesting decision of powering up your magic enhancer, or keeping useful wands full. The problems of balance and complexity still apply though.
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 07:16

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

XuaXua wrote:
njvack wrote:I'm still not totally sold that the benefit would be worth the added complexity, though. I suspect their lack of enchantability isn't some random omission...?


What complexity? Enhancer staves actually make things more complex as it stands by being the sole exception to the rule (not counting artefacts).

It's another variable in a formula that has been chanced at least twice in recent releases (ie: we're still balancing it).
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 13:13

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

mageykun wrote:Okay. Let's look at this logically. Currently, magic staves are un-enchantable. This has the following effects:
  • They're corrosion proof. This has limited use, but is mostly moot as staff wielding casters have other ways to deal with jellies.
...
  • Casters use spells on jellies instead of their staves (because they've lost the corrosion protection).


As said earlier by njvack, this can't possibly be something players (especially unspoiled ones) go out of their way to do, considering getting hit by a jelly can affect your armor (robe/cap/cloak/whatever).
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 13:39

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

mageykun wrote:Okay. Let's look at this logically. Currently, magic staves are un-enchantable.
...

What changes occur if we make staves enchant-able?
...
None of which is particularly interesting. Enchanting staves for melee doesn't add any depth.

Now, if we allow enchantment and tie the magic effects of the staff to the enchantment level, you effect balance. You can nerf or buff staves by what enchantment level is made equivalent to today's standard (ie- does a staff of fire now equate to tomorrows +0 staff of fire, or +9?), and further by how you scale the changes between levels. This gets complicated quickly though, as you'd have to introduce fractional versions of all the staff boosts and bonuses- things like fire boosts and wizardry that as of now stack in neat increments that are fairly easy for the player to count. I'm not sure confusing that adds anything or is desirable.

If we use scrolls of charging instead of enchant weapon, it improves the situation slightly, in that you're faced with the interesting decision of powering up your magic enhancer, or keeping useful wands full. The problems of balance and complexity still apply though.


In your "What changes occur", you miss
  • Give an actual reason to have duplicate enhancer staves in a dungeon.
which is actually interesting.

If giving the staff +/+ damage (sticking with EW scrolls here, for now), you have two options:
1) Have it only work for combat purposes (the +/+ work as regular for a weapon. They don't do anything for the effect.)
or
2) Have it adjust the staff effect.
If the enchantment is affecting the effect, it shouldn't be rocket science.
Let's say the current calculation for damage/usage is FOO.
Urgh... too early in the morning to think about formula for this, but yes I see we'd need to set which + today's standard sits at.
At worst (simplest), I'd consider multiplying EITHER the chance of effect or amount of effect by (a % (maybe 0.5) * the sum total of enchantment) and set today's standard where sum total of enchantment = 9 because +5 is right where enchantment starts to get dicey and you can consider generating negative enchantment enhancer staves.

Or even if there is both chance amount, make it to-hit enchantment affects chance and damage enchantment affect amount of effect, and set today's standard of total of enchantment to +5.
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 15:17

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

mageykun wrote:If we use scrolls of charging instead of enchant weapon, it improves the situation slightly, in that you're faced with the interesting decision of powering up your magic enhancer, or keeping useful wands full.


Well, past the mid-game, ?recharging starts to pile up for most of my characters who survive that far -- unless I've found a wand of hasting and haven't learned haste, or attack wands are my primary emergency ranged attack or something.

In other words: pretty often, especially on characters who'd think about staff melee. Rods seem to compete more effectively for ?recharging, because I'm probably *not* using magic for those purposes.

The other place staff enchantment could come in to play is as a replacement for Evocations in the staff damage formulae -- they could be enchantable up to +27, even, which would use up a significant number of ?EW, even for a caster. The Evo thing seems pretty well-balanced to me, but it's kind of a non-obvious mechanic; enchantment might be more intuitive.

It's a little odd with the current staff lineup, though -- would |Conj and |Summ and |Ench be non-enchantable? That seems odd. Maybe we could come up with melee effects for the other staves (Conj deals smaller non-elem ac-bypassing damage, Summ abjures, Ench deals negative status effects?) -- but that still leaves Power and Channeling...
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 17:13

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

minmay wrote:Also your proposal doesn't even solve this "problem" because generally one of the staves is going to be higher enchanted which will make the other one useless anyway.


Current (EW doesn't work on Enhancer Staves):
You find a Staff of Necromancy on D2. You find another on D11.

EW works on Enhancer Staves:
You find a -2/-1 Staff of Necromancy on D2. You enchant that sucker up to +3 by D10 using all scrolls handy. Then you find a Staff of Necromancy +1/+6 on D11. Now you've used up a bunch of scrolls to help you through the early game, but would you have saved them on the off-chance you found another stave? You now have the same gamble on these scrolls vs finding a dagger of electricity vs a later-game sabre of electricity.
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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 17:44

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

Sounds boring and pointless to me. May as well talk about enchanting rings of slaying, protection, etc.

Most people will not hit things with enhancer staves early-game. Of the very few that do, the obvious choice would be to enchant the current staff. If you happen to find a better one, switch.

Or do you hold off on enchanting/vorpalizing that -1,+0 executioner's axe in case you find a +4,+3 vampiric one later?
(hint: if the answer to this question is yes, you are playing crawl wrong)

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Post Wednesday, 21st March 2012, 18:26

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

I'm really not sold on why you think duplicate staves are a common problem we need to fix by making them more differentiable. You almost never find one of each staff per game, and you're lucky to see two of some of them.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 18:01

Re: ?EW on Enhancer Staves (was: Rods as maces)

mageykun wrote:I'm really not sold on why you think duplicate staves are a common problem we need to fix by making them more differentiable. You almost never find one of each staff per game, and you're lucky to see two of some of them.

Oh, trust me when you're looking for a staff of earth, you find multiples of enchantment, death, channeling, air, poison, fire, ....

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