necromutation

[galehar]

While talking about permanent buffs on ##crawl-dev we had this awesome idea for necromutation.

• Necromutation is permanent. There is no way back from being a Lich.
• You need to cast the spell on a phylactery. If you miscast, the phylactery is destroyed.
• Phylacteries are rare miscellaneous artefacts.
• Necromutation is a L9 necro/tmut spell.
• Once in Lich form, you can cast the spell on potions of HW, curing, restore abilities and experience to transmute them into unholy energy and get their effect. In 9 turns (no tactical use, mainly to cure rot and stat loss).
• Ideas for places where to find phylacteries: bottom of tar, crypt and tomb, lich drop, acquirement, special vaults filled with traps and undeads.

[njvack]

This is indeed an awesome idea. Any gameplay ideas for the phylactery once it's gone? Would it be gear that must be permanently worn, or would it be bonus-free gear that, once phylacterified, give some kind of bonus?

I also like the idea of a spell that it's actually worth stacking wizardry and brilliance to cast once.

[evilmike]

I've heard this idea before. Can't say I'm very fond of it. Necromutation, as it currently exists, is an interesting spell. You gain some nice temporary resists and immunities, in exchange for being shut off from the some of the most powerful emergency spells (which you will have access to if you have necromutation). I think it's one of the more interesting spells in the game, is balanced in an interesting way, and works best as a temporary effect. If you want permanent undead status, you might as well just roll a mummy (which is almost the same thing as lich form but with rF-).

One way to use it is to constantly recast it for the whole extended endgame. Usually characters have a reason to do this to take advantage of hungerlessness channeling. It also makes sense to leave it up for all of tomb. In other places, its usually best left to tactical situations.

Making it permanent just... messes with that in a way I don't like. It no longer is a tactical effect. Also, since you'd be permanently shutting off some of the most useful spells in the game (borg, death's door, self sublimation, regeneration...), making necromutation permanent is actually making the spell weaker. Right now it's worthy of being level 8 tmut/necro, but a permanent version doesn't seem right at level 9.

Aside from some characters tediously re-casting it, necromutation isn't one of those obviously problematic spells that needs reworking. In terms of buffs/forms, it is actually one of the best in terms of giving serious drawbacks. It might be better to use this idea for a new spell, or as some sort of variant version of it (for instance, normally casting necromutation gives the spell as it is now, but casting it while holding a phylactery gives you the permanent version). I think level 9 dual school would still be too high though.

[Eji1700]

so to be clear evilmike you'd be more of a fan of necromutation being more of a toggle spell?

As for the proposed idea.....what gameplay effect does the phylactery have? I mean basically what i'm reading this as is-
Make lich form permanent but require randart to cast.

Not saying i'm completely against the idea, but if you're going to introduce something as complicated as a phylactery i'd like it to have some sort of in game effect other than fancy spell regent.

[galehar]

The phylactery doesn't have any game play effect. Its purpose is just to make the spell success relevant for a cast only once spell.

[evilmike]

so to be clear evilmike you'd be more of a fan of necromutation being more of a toggle spell?

As for the proposed idea.....what gameplay effect does the phylactery have? I mean basically what i'm reading this as is-
Make lich form permanent but require randart to cast.

Not saying i'm completely against the idea, but if you're going to introduce something as complicated as a phylactery i'd like it to have some sort of in game effect other than fancy spell regent.

Yes, I think it works better as something you can switch on or off.

As a permanent effect, I can't see myself ever using it unless I want to abuse channeling (with sif muna), or I want to leave tomb to the end of the game (that's the one branch I think necromutation is most helpful for... mostly in reducing annoyance). Everywhere else I'd rather have regeneration and such available.

Another big problem is that if it's permanent, you wind up throwing away your investment in both necro and tmut skills. Most of the useful necromancy spells are ones that are shut off by being undead. The one major exception is dispel undead, which tends to be strong enough anyway. And as for tmut, no forms work while you're undead. For level 9, that's pretty extreme. It might be optimal to use ashenzari here - become a perma-lich, then reskill out of necro and tmut (which are now almost useless).

I can't deny that the permanent lich thing is a *cool* idea. I just dont think it can work if the spell is completely redesigned this way. Thus, I think it's better if it's an optional feature (cast it with a phylactery), or perhaps an ultimate god gift (yred maybe?).

[njvack]

Well... the top-tier Necro spells could, in principle, keep working for lichformers. You do lose your tmut investment, though

The yred ultimate gift angle is an interesting one.

[ebarrett]

...

[evilmike]

Well... the top-tier Necro spells could, in principle, keep working for lichformers.

Yes, but it would be a major inconsistency with ghouls, mummies, and bloodless vampires (with ghouls being a slight exception, being allowed to use regeneration).

[njvack]

Yes, it would. I don't see why liches can't be different, though. As you point out, lichform isn't a clear-cut advantage -- you get most of the drawbacks of mummyhood in lichform, and by the time you could cast a dual-school L9 spell, you probably don't care too very much about your better aptitudes or hungerless casting. Despite the flavor-awesomeness to the proposal, with more thought, I am left wondering when I'd ever choose this route. Crawl is not an RPG

One other thought: if the supply of phylacteries is severely limited (1-2? per game max), you could potentially break yours to return to the living -- a very limited desperate way to let you quaff !curing if you're confused, or maybe something you'd do when going for the dark rune. Or if you really, really needed revivification.

One other other thought: perhaps, when making the lichform transformation, you're given a special opportunity to transfer your now-useless transmutation skill, at a severe penalty (25%?), to another skill. Ash could remove the penalty altogether for this one-time transfer.

If combined with the 'break phylactery to return to life' thing, it gives an interesting choice: do I keep my tmut skill in case I want to return to lichform later or go back to blade hands-ing things after Tomb, or pour my tmut skill into something immediately useful -- maybe I can get Fire Storm online with that experience... but good luck leveling tmut enough to return to lichform in that case.

[TwilightPhoenix]

What if Borg's Revivification was able to reverse the perma-Lich Form, but had some sort of significant, perhaps temporary, perhaps permanent, cost associated with it? Penalties could include maybe things such as paralysis, Int rot, mana rot, HP rot, glow, skill rot, breaking the phylactery, or other some such?

[Galefury]

Oh god, people actually want to nerf the weakest level 8 spell? This proposal would be enough to make it the worst spell in the entire game even if it were level 1. I cannot imagine any circumstance under which I would be willing to cast it. You could make it a god wrath effect for Chei, remove all his benefits, force me to start with him, and I'd never abandon him because of how unbelievably crippling this would be.

This from the guy who plays a mummy 80% of the time?

[XuaXua]

Relevant DCSS Wiki link; suggest OP update the first post with this link.

[crate]

I almost want this to happen just so I can laugh at anyone who ever learns necromutation after it's implemented.

[eeviac]

Please dont do this. The only change necromutation needs is to be toggleable.

However, I really like the suggestion of a permanent, slightly improved lichform (with some way to utilize potions etc.) as an ultimate god gift, if it could be obtained without training tmut/necro. the delayed consumable use could be a god ability to discourage abandonement once lichdom is achieved. perhaps this form of consumable use could be shared by the other undead races too.

Im brainstorming this now. This could be an opportunity to improve yred in the extended game as well.

[absolutego]

yred needs to take demon (but not undead) kills, for a start, and see how that plays out. i'm sure this has come up before, so what was the rationale behind keeping it as is? (please don't say flavour.)

god-gifted permanent lich form is very flavourful. i'm not sure how good it would be, and i probably would never use it without certain provisions (means of haste and wand of heal wounds, no reliance on transmutations or berserking), but is it really as terrible as minmay suggests? or were you talking exclusively about the spell there? (because yeah that would be terrible.)

[evilmike]

but is it really as terrible as minmay suggests? or were you talking exclusively about the spell there? (because yeah that would be terrible.)

He was talking about the spell.

[absolutego]

uhm this was fully meant to go in the other thread, i probably mixed them up after logging in.

[njvack]

You could make it a god wrath effect for Chei, remove all his benefits, force me to start with him, and I'd never abandon him because of how unbelievably crippling this would be.

Being ponderous all game is better than being a mummy with better stats, aptitudes, and no rF-? I never thought self-restoration or the necro boost were that good

Snark aside: was this hyperbole or am I forgetting something important that makes liches worse than mummies?

[snow]

If necromutation was permanent it would be the worst spell in the game. It's basically just torment resistance... the other resistances aren't as important as they are convenient. Furthermore torment resistance isn't that big of a deal since there are so many other ways around it. I've won 15 rune games without necromutation and I've had games that necromutation has killed me... it's 100% balanced as is and the ONLY problem with it is that recasting it can be annoying.