"Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"


Although the central place for this kind of discussion is on the CDO wiki, some may find it helpful to discuss potential requests and suggestions here first.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 22:10

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

I don't like this change, especially since Mi always seemed like the perfect niche for a Large size race with good armour apt which would handily differentiate them better from MD. I'll admit that HO and MD have always been pretty similar, though. I'm more annoyed that this seems like an easy way out of making minotaurs actually interesting.

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Post Thursday, 27th October 2011, 22:25

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

It was. I was thinking this could be an opportune time to try out that idea, in a new way.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 00:04

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

New Mountain dwarf suggestion:



axe:+3 rest of weapons +0

Other skills as they are now except higher shields by 1.


Small size means no large shields and higher normal and buckler shield requirements and effect. High shield skill to compensate.

Gets a higher bonus than usual to hps by training fighting but has low base hps to fit size.

Evasion is as if normal sized not small sized.

Can use two handed axes despite small size because of their natural mastery of axes but they can't use great mace and other two handed weapons as kobolds and halflings can't.

Abilities:

1:drink ale: character becomes confused and goes berserk(drunk), until the confusion ends, no food cost but some gold cost (15).

2:+4 Bonus to evasion when fighting giant sized creatures

3: Chance to go berserk when fighting elves(similar to rage mutation but a normal duration berserk, the duration has a chance to be increased when elves are killed)

They could start with picks instead of hand axes, 5 damage 120 speed axes that have the additional ability to break one tile walls in three turns when evoked and that deal extra damage versus golems and other stone creatures. (could be a nice class of weapon)

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 00:58

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

tazoz wrote:They could start with picks instead of hand axes, 5 damage 120 speed axes that have the additional ability to break one tile walls in three turns when evoked and that deal extra damage versus golems and other stone creatures. (could be a nice class of weapon)


Practically-free digging from pickaxes would just lead to Mega Tedious Excavation Projects - just look at how that goes in Nethack.

Maybe the Mine Dwarf would have bonuses to Earth Magic as they level up, the way Mummies get with Necromancy.

Incidentally, whatever happened to that suggestion I saw on the wiki for making dwarves small? Did it turn out that that wouldn't have been interesting?

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 03:22

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

I think getting rid of MD is a rash decision. HO is a strictly worse MD that only has Beogh to differentiate them from other races and give them flavor. Minotaurs, even with these new changes, still aren't as good at being super tanks like MD (they can't equip helmets for one thing, and their Armour apt currently isn't as high as MD, although the latter can be changed obviously). MD may be boring, but they definitely fill a niche and an archetype not represented by any other race.

People on the SA forums have been posting some suggestions I like. They think MD should be kept in as the generic melee/tank benchmark race (the same way DE are for casters), and Minotaurs and HO should be balanced and differentiated around them. One poster said to make Minotaurs a large race, and give them either *Rage or +Rage (since they are bulls afterall), and balance them around that.

As for Hill Orcs, maybe lower the good fire aptitudes from MD and give them to HO (I think this has already been done in trunk.) Maybe boost their spellcasting aptitudes a bit too, so they can do the armoured caster thing. Orcs already have wizard and sorceror mobs so it makes sense. As it stands currently, all Hill Orcs have going for them is Beogh. While playing an Orc Jesus can be fun, overall they aren't that great of a race IMO.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 03:35

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:I think getting rid of MD is a rash decision. HO is a strictly worse MD that only has Beogh to differentiate them from other races and give them flavor. Minotaurs, even with these new changes, still aren't as good at being super tanks like MD (they can't equip helmets for one thing, and their Armour apt currently isn't as high as MD, although the latter can be changed obviously). MD may be boring, but they definitely fill a niche and an archetype not represented by any other race.

People on the SA forums have been posting some suggestions I like. They think MD should be kept in as the generic melee/tank benchmark race (the same way DE are for casters), and Minotaurs and HO should be balanced and differentiated around them. One poster said to make Minotaurs a large race, and give them either *Rage or +Rage (since they are bulls afterall), and balance them around that.

As for Hill Orcs, maybe lower the good fire aptitudes from MD and give them to HO (I think this has already been done in trunk.) Maybe boost their spellcasting aptitudes a bit too, so they can do the armoured caster thing. Orcs already have wizard and sorceror mobs so it makes sense. As it stands currently, all Hill Orcs have going for them is Beogh. While playing an Orc Jesus can be fun, overall they aren't that great of a race IMO.

Hill Orc aptitudes that are better than Mountain Dwarf: Long Blades, Polearms, Unarmed Combat, Throwing, Bows, Stealth, Stabbing, Ice Magic, Poison Magic, Conjurations, Hexes, Charms, Summonings, Necromancy, Invocations, Experience
Mountain Dwarf aptitudes that are better than Hill Orc: Short Blades, Maces & Flails, Crossbows, Armour, Dodging, Shields, Traps & Doors, Fire Magic, Earth Magic, Translocations, Transmutations, Evocations

Sure, many of the areas Mountain Dwarves are superior at are more relevant to their typical style of play, but they are by no means strictly better than Hill Orcs. Beogh is also not a small thing; HOPr is an entirely unique play style that is great fun. Nothing comes even close to the "gather an army of worshippers" play except for perhaps Death Knights, and that only shares the similarities of permanent followers. You can't handwave that away; it's one of the best things orcs have going for them.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 03:59

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:Minotaurs, even with these new changes, still aren't as good at being super tanks like MD (they can't equip helmets for one thing).


If it becomes necessary for the super-tank species to be able to wear helmets, why not just make rare Minotaur Helms that can only be worn if you got horns 1 or 2? (The horns keep it from falling off.)

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 04:44

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Blade wrote:b
Sure, many of the areas Mountain Dwarves are superior at are more relevant to their typical style of play, but they are by no means strictly better than Hill Orcs. Beogh is also not a small thing; HOPr is an entirely unique play style that is great fun. Nothing comes even close to the "gather an army of worshippers" play except for perhaps Death Knights, and that only shares the similarities of permanent followers. You can't handwave that away; it's one of the best things orcs have going for them.


Can you honestly say you would play a Hill Orc over any other race if you didn't want to go with Beogh? Beogh is fun, but there is no other reason to play a Hill Orc. Most of those aptitudes you listed don't even go together that well. For one thing, HO has +2 Stabbing, but they also have -2 Stealth so what's the point? Most of Hill Orc skills either don't synergize well, or can be done better by another race.

Not to flame, and I want to state that I respect the devs and appreciate that they volunteer to work on this game, but I am disappointed in most of the changes that have been put in 0.10 so far. Aside from the refinement of the new XP system (which is great), most of the changes seem superfluous at best. The Draconian armour change for one thing, which makes no sense either flavor or game play wise, and now the removal of a classic, archetypal, fun, and balanced race because it's too similar to two other races? HO with Beogh are already different enough in my opinion. As for Minotaurs, maybe tweak them some more instead of just getting rid of Mountain Dwarves? Maybe skew MD towards more defensive tanky aptitudes, while Minotaur towards more offensive ones? Give Minotaur another auxiliary attack like hooves, to further boost their melee damage while lowering their defensive qualities? This would further separate them from Dwarves.

This decision is too rash, and I'm not happy with it. I know I am definitely not the only one.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 05:34

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

As for Minotaurs, maybe tweak them some more instead of just getting rid of Mountain Dwarves? Maybe skew MD towards more defensive tanky aptitudes, while Minotaur towards more offensive ones? Give Minotaur another auxiliary attack like hooves, to further boost their melee damage while lowering their defensive qualities?

Interesting :)

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 06:23

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:Can you honestly say you would play a Hill Orc over any other race if you didn't want to go with Beogh? Beogh is fun, but there is no other reason to play a Hill Orc. Most of those aptitudes you listed don't even go together that well. For one thing, HO has +2 Stabbing, but they also have -2 Stealth so what's the point? Most of Hill Orc skills either don't synergize well, or can be done better by another race.

Not to flame, and I want to state that I respect the devs and appreciate that they volunteer to work on this game, but I am disappointed in most of the changes that have been put in 0.10 so far. Aside from the refinement of the new XP system (which is great), most of the changes seem superfluous at best. The Draconian armour change for one thing, which makes no sense either flavor or game play wise, and now the removal of a classic, archetypal, fun, and balanced race because it's too similar to two other races? HO with Beogh are already different enough in my opinion. As for Minotaurs, maybe tweak them some more instead of just getting rid of Mountain Dwarves? Maybe skew MD towards more defensive tanky aptitudes, while Minotaur towards more offensive ones? Give Minotaur another auxiliary attack like hooves, to further boost their melee damage while lowering their defensive qualities? This would further separate them from Dwarves.

This decision is too rash, and I'm not happy with it. I know I am definitely not the only one.

I wouldn't play a Hill Orc without Beogh because that's what minotaurs are for. It's not that Hill Orcs of not-Beogh aren't viable, just that other things are more interesting in other areas. In the same vein, I play Demigods, Draconians, and Demonspawn instead of humans.

The Draconian change makes perfect sense; they are the only race with wings, and it is very reasonable to say that body armour can't fit over wings. They excel now as hybrids/casters with decent AC and EV; flight is also handy.

As for making MD tanks and Minotaurs glass cannons...+3 armour apt is about as heavy of a tank as you're going to find; shields, the other heavy defense skill, don't work well with axes, the traditional dwarf weapon. Hill Orcs of not-Beogh do everything MD did, with near-insignificant differences and better hybridizing due to the casting buffs. I'd be fine with seeing Mountain Dwarves back with an overhaul, but without it the only argument I can think of for keeping them is that they're traditional, and a game with octupi as a playable race should not be hugely concerned with sticking to stereotypes.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 06:31

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

nicolae wrote:
tazoz wrote:They could start with picks instead of hand axes, 5 damage 120 speed axes that have the additional ability to break one tile walls in three turns when evoked and that deal extra damage versus golems and other stone creatures. (could be a nice class of weapon)


Practically-free digging from pickaxes would just lead to Mega Tedious Excavation Projects - just look at how that goes in Nethack.

Maybe the Mine Dwarf would have bonuses to Earth Magic as they level up, the way Mummies get with Necromancy.

Incidentally, whatever happened to that suggestion I saw on the wiki for making dwarves small? Did it turn out that that wouldn't have been interesting?


We already have a "linked to earth"-type dwarf species in the deep dwarves.

It might be interesting to change the MDs into even more of a defensive species. They currently have poor MR, boosting that and their hp gain while reducing melee apts could be interesting. Maybe give glow-resistance (shorter time or just less glow) to encourage reckless casting in heavy armour?

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 06:36

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Dwarves are durable, so give MDs trample immunity? :P

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 07:00

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:Can you honestly say you would play a Hill Orc over any other race if you didn't want to go with Beogh?


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I can! They've become my preference as a "go-to" heavy armored species for me. Namely because they level faster, are adaptable for most weapons aside short blades (which they don't need), and they're easier to get to reliable casting in heavy armor.
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 07:22

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Blade wrote:It's not that Hill Orcs of not-Beogh aren't viable, just that other things are more interesting in other areas. In the same vein, I play Demigods, Draconians, and Demonspawn instead of humans.

The Draconian change makes perfect sense; they are the only race with wings, and it is very reasonable to say that body armour can't fit over wings. They excel now as hybrids/casters with decent AC and EV; flight is also handy.

As for making MD tanks and Minotaurs glass cannons...+3 armour apt is about as heavy of a tank as you're going to find; shields, the other heavy defense skill, don't work well with axes, the traditional dwarf weapon. Hill Orcs of not-Beogh do everything MD did, with near-insignificant differences and better hybridizing due to the casting buffs. I'd be fine with seeing Mountain Dwarves back with an overhaul, but without it the only argument I can think of for keeping them is that they're traditional, and a game with octupi as a playable race should not be hugely concerned with sticking to stereotypes.


Draconians aren't the only race with wings, we have Kenku, who somehow can still wear robes as far as I know. I'm not concerned about whether Mountain Dwarves are "traditional" in the flavor sense, I mean in the gameplay sense. They have filled the "hard as a brick melee tank archetype" for a while now, and perform in that role better than any other race. Hill Orcs are viable, but do not perform this role as well as a MD. Minotaurs do not either (although they come close). I do not think Minotaurs should be glass cannons, just slightly skewed more towards offensive abilities while Mountain Dwarves towards defensive.

I am proposing something like...MDs get +3 armour, +2 shields, -2 or -3 dodging, and +1 or +2 HP. Maybe lower their combat aptitudes to only +1 for crossbows, maces, axes, and fighting. +0 for long blades, -1 or lower for everything else. For magic, maybe +1 to earth, +1 to fire, and either zeros or negative values for everything else. Also keep their +1 for evocations and T&D.

As for Minotaurs, give them +1 armour, +1 shield, +1 dodging, and +1 HP. Give them Hooves 3, so they lose an armor slot, but gain another powerful auxilary attack. Then +2 across the board for all the melee combat abilities, including fighting. I'm not sure how to do the aptitudes for their ranged weaponry, probably +1 for all of them except crossbows, which could be +0 or -1. Keep their magic at -3 across the board.

It's a subtle difference, sure, but they are still different roles to perform. A Minotaur can take a beating, but not as much as a Mountain Dwarf. On the flip side, a Minotaur can dish out more damage. The difference is a lot less extreme than "Super Tank" vs "Glass Cannon", but it's there and I feel is enough to warrant two different races.

To further differentiate the two, I still like the idea of giving a Minotaur an innate level of Berserkitis 1. This adds flavor (bulls see red and get pissed off), and further pushes Minotaurs into the realm of "more damage at the risk of personal safety" to further make them different from Mountain Dwarves without making them a squishy glass cannon like an Ogre. This idea would probably need a lot of tweaking to balance correctly though.

I think Hill Orcs, with Beogh and their spell casting aptitudes, plus the ability to eat rotten meat, are different enough already and don't require much tweaking in my opinion. Maybe still remove the +Fire aptitudes from Mountain Dwarves and keep them on Hill Orcs. I like that change, even if Mountain Dwarves were to return.

EDIT: Actually, on second thought, don't give Mountain Dwarves any positive magical aptitudes at all and give them to Hill Orcs. Then we have a melee tank, melee damage dealer, and an armoured caster. Three different races that specialize in heavy armor, with three different roles.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 07:42

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:Draconians aren't the only race with wings, we have Kenku, who somehow can still wear robes as far as I know.


kenku have beaks and talons, but not wings. that's why they can wear any armour. they fly with innate magic.

goo wrote:For one thing, HO has +2 Stabbing, but they also have -2 Stealth so what's the point?


you can stab enemies distracted by allies, which beogh grants, so there's the point.
(and as far as i'm concerned it's actually much better than sleep-stabbing, which is either a one-hit-kill or doesn't work, and relies on hexes, which are hard to work with.)
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 08:31

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Ok, I guess I see the reasoning for the Draconian change then. As well as why Hill Orcs are good at stabbing. I still stand by my main point that the removal of Mountain Dwarves is unnecessary and brings nothing positive to the game. Just tweak aptitudes and innate mutations to further differentiate the roles of each race instead of just giving one of them (and arguably the best of the three at that) the axe. That strikes me as lazy design.

I believe the following are enough to help differentiate each race.

Mountain Dwarves
+1 HP
+3 Armour
+3 Shields
-3 Dodging
+1 Fighting
+1 Maces
+1 Axes
+1 Crossbows
+1 Evocations
+1 Traps and Doors
+0 or Lower for everything else,
definitely needs bad magic, stealth,
stabbing

Minotaur
Innate Horns 2 or 3
Innate Hooves 3
Innate Berserkitis 1 (This is optional and up for debate)
+1 HP
+1 Armour
+1 Shields
+2 Dodging
+2 Fighting, UC, and all Melee Weapons
+1 All Ranged Weapons except crossbow
Magic aptitudes stay as is.
+0 or lower for everything else


Hill Orc
Innate Saprovore 1
Innate ability to worship Beogh
+1 HP
+1 Armour
+1 Shields
+0 Dodging
+2 Invocations
+1 Fighting
+2 Axes
+1 M&F
-1 Spellcasting
+2 Fire Magic
All other aptitudes stay as is.

I've noticed a growing trend in the design of races, and that is they all have a "gimmick" and play much differently than other races. That's fine, and I find both Felid and Octopode to be very fun to play, but I think that first and foremost it is more important to have more straight forward races that cover the varying extremes of different aptitude spreads. To remove Mountain Dwarf would be a mistake in my opinion.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 08:58

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Removal of a species always causes some talk, and I can understand if it sometimes borders on silly talk (some players have affections towards the removed species). Just some instances:

"Why didn't they do this instead?" Like I said, if interesting proposals appear, we will evaluate them. However, as it stands, we have decided that there is not enough diverity among HO, Mi, MD, using aptitudes alone. For that matter, I haven't seen a proposal on this page which looked interesting to me. (Innate berserk, come on folks.)

"HO is strictly worse than MD." While I know I won't be heard, let me say it once more: the goal is not to keep the "strongest" species. It is to have diversified species. (Of course, the statement itself is also completely off the mark. This is without taking Beogh into account.)

"All the new stuff is rubbish." Timeless, it comes up at least once for each new version.

"Trend of gimmick species." Ogres.

"Play very much differently." Design goal.

That said, I realise that the full first page of this thread was full of sane comments (and the second page has some good replies, too). I am happy to see that many players understand what we're going for. It is my belief that the game will be much better in the long run by trading virtual choices by actual choices, as happens with removing Mi/MD (the surviving species is called Mi, but it is really a merge of old Mi and MD) and adding Oc.
Someone asked why there was no public discussion: Why? The forum is not our parliament :)
In case someone is interested: Species that have been mentioned by some developers as potential chopping block targets: Ha, HE. This does not mean they're lining up before the guillotine yet.
I would love to see a golem in the game, ideally as a slow species. I know there are three proposals and a patch; there is definitely something workable to get out of this. I am lacking the time to push golems any further (i.e. playtest properly). If you want to help them, play the patch if you can; if you can't, lobby for a playable branch on the servers. Give feedback.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 09:47

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Even though I really don't care much about this change, I can understand why some players are upset. I think the main reason is simply that mountain dwarfs were a very popular race, and there's a certain sentimental attachment to them because of this. Especially since they were the first race a lot of people won with. This makes people care a lot more than say, when gnomes were removed. I also think this is a perfectly legitimate reason for players to feel upset.

On the subject of the way the races are currently, I see two main things that have been lost by the change. One is the good fire apt that mountain dwarves had. Hill orcs get +1 now, but it isn't as good as the +2 MD had (luckily, hill orcs currently make for decent casters). Only red draconians get a +2 fire apt currently (everything else has +1 or worse). I think it would be good for another race to be good at fire, and the +2 could probably go to hill orcs. Another option would be kenkus, but I like the idea of a race that's good with fire and doesn't have abysmal HP (note that fire elementalists have a melee-range spell).

The other loss is the good armour apt MD had (+3). Nothing really is quite as "tanky" any more. I think minotaurs should get +3 armour instead of +2.

Those are both buffs but they aren't huge ones, and I don't think either race would be overpowered with this.

These two apt increases would address the major complaints I think. There'd still be people upset for sentimental reasons, but that can't be fixed by tweaking apts.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 09:55

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:EDIT: Actually, on second thought, don't give Mountain Dwarves any positive magical aptitudes at all and give them to Hill Orcs. Then we have a melee tank, melee damage dealer, and an armoured caster. Three different races that specialize in heavy armor, with three different roles.

I think this is probably the right line of thinking (re: having one armour caster, and one straight up tank). I don't think there's enough difference between "melee tank" and "melee damage dealer" though. You can't build a character around absorbing damage - a melee tank needs to be a melee damager in order to be viable. Thus, they will fill the same niche (with only small differences).

I think "armour caster" and "melee tank" are both good roles to have though, and hill orcs and minotaurs could be differentiated more along those lines (which is what my above post had in mind).

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 11:17

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

goo wrote:Minotaur
Innate Horns 2 or 3
Innate Hooves 3


The role of having good melee, terrible magic, crippled armor slots, and enough auxiliary attacks to essentially force unarmed combat is already taken by the troll.

goo wrote:Innate Berserkitis 1 (This is optional and up for debate)


Berserkitis is one of the most crippling mutations in the game for melee combatants. Putting it on your minotaur forces the player to rely on ranged weapons, evocations, or magic for difficult fights in spite of the aptitudes.

goo wrote:+1 HP
+1 Armour
+1 Shields
+2 Dodging
+2 Fighting, UC, and all Melee Weapons
+1 All Ranged Weapons except crossbow
Magic aptitudes stay as is.
+0 or lower for everything else


Aptitudes don't actually have all that much impact on the game until you start comparing very large differences. Because skill levels are exponential those piddly +1 differences mean you'll lag, at most, one skill level behind.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 11:22

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Hey, if Minotaurs get a +3 armour aptitude, and Hill Orcs get +2 fire and maybe raise up spellcasting to -1, I will be happy.

I still think melee tank and melee damage dealer are different roles though. Any class that plays unarmed or uses 2 handers feels significantly different to me than a sword and boarder. In fact,I forgot we already have a few races that fill the "melee damage dealer" role. We already have some in the form of Ogres and Trolls. They can dish it out, but they are both squishy as hell compared to heavy armor users. A melee Kenku is too actually, they are probably the closest to what I had in mind for an updated Minotaur. Also, the innate rage thing was clearly a bad idea.

A few more things, Mountain Dwarves were the only tanky race that also had good evocations and T&D, a niche that is no longer filled. Are Minotaurs or HO going to get these aptitudes?

Sorry for turning into an asperger guys, I'm just...very passionate about computer dwarfs. Also, can one of the devs explain why HE is being considered for removal? With MD I at least understand the logic behind it, but HE I think has a pretty clearly defined role as a hybrid and seems pretty unique to me.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 12:23

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Most things that HE can do well Mf, SE or Ke can also do. But there are quite some differences, so that case is not quite as clear as MD.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 16:49

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Hmm, how would golems fit well among the current large melee builds without overlapping / redundancy ?

reading some posts above: I didn't see reason to MD to get good apt in Fire.. unless you accept they are skilled smiths. Improving fire magic to orcs makes sense because they are a race oriented to destruction (Warcraft orcs warlocks were also keen on fire magic).
Last edited by Roderic on Friday, 28th October 2011, 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 16:52

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Roderic wrote:Hmm, how would golems fit well among the large melee builds without overlapping / redundance ?


Most of the golem suggestions are along the lines of large melee + a "gimmick" that differentiates their playstyle significantly.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 17:08

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Mountain Dwarfs have one advantage in that when you open up the species screen for the first time, you already know that Mountain Dwarfs are sturdy little armored melee fighters. Its a strong and straightforward introductory race that has no special concerns or abilities to worry about. I guess this is both a reason to keep them and the reason they got axed.

I could actually see Sludge elves added to Minotaurs - Hooves, Horns and solid transumtational and unarmed apts. Minos being good at "hybridization" makes sense in a way.

It is slightly odd that minotaurs are becoming the default heavy armor tank species when they have an armor restriction and no "race with racial equipment" bonus. Not that it really makes a difference, they will do just fine in that role, but if your defense is heavy armor then your only defense is heavy armor and you want to pile on as much as you can.

Anyway I'm sure it will all work out fine.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 18:46

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

I could actually see Sludge elves added to Minotaurs - Hooves, Horns and solid transumtational and unarmed apts. Minos being good at "hybridization" makes sense in a way.


Call them satyrs then

It is slightly odd that minotaurs are becoming the default heavy armor tank species when they have an armor restriction and no "race with racial equipment" bonus.


I think humans could fit well in this role. Being the race which is used to measure the others doesn't mean they are average on everything. Simply allowing racial apt in armour to be 0 or less for all you are placing humans in the top tier of races to use armor, possibly together with orcs, DD and minotaurs.

Problem with humans is that their 0 apt default seems to allow values above and below for the rest of races in some apt (this values seem bonus/malus but they aren't), then degrading humans as a mere averaged race, which is no good because everybody finds a reason to choose another race with an special trait.

In other words, a bit off-topic, I would like to see an aptitudes table in absolute values rather than men-relative. This prevents the average-race status of humans and possibly allowing them valuable in some aptitude like armour and shields. Thus, you recover the tank build desired in MD because humans fighters would be sturdier than the rest of races
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 18:50

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

What about tweaking a little DD ? from +1 to +2 in armor and from +2 to 0 in stealth (too many stealthier-than-men races nowadays). The MD has +3 in armor and -3 in stealth.

With this change you get DD also able to be good melee builds, yet being unable to recover by resting, but they can spend their MP totally in the healing wand.
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 19:32

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

I haven't played either MD or Minotaurs, but I like the idea of MD being defensive and Mino being offensive.

I was thinking, dwarves have the D&D reputation of having a strong constitution, so I'm thinking they should get a mutation that allows them to shrug off poisons and certain debuffs faster.

For minotaurs, the connection to berserk seems interesting, so what if they got a racial mutation that lowers the food cost of berserking?

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 20:50

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"


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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 22:14

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Some of the comments to that post were... strong. So, on a positive note, I do like the way the new HO apts look.
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 22:23

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Some of the comments to that post were... strong. So, on a positive note, I do like the way the new HO apts look.


It's kind of weird to me, the mindset that if one of the non-gimmick species goes, then clearly all the rest are on the chopping block, to make room for a playable Intestinal Tapeworm species.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 22:32

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm
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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 22:38

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm


Replace all species with invertebrates. Down with the spinéd oppressors.

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Post Friday, 28th October 2011, 22:59

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

The motto for 0.10: Gimmicks FTW.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 00:48

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

thenewflesh wrote:The motto for 0.10: Gimmicks FTW.


Just out of curiosity, what niches are there that are still open that wouldn't require gimmicks to differentiate them? I imagine it'd have to be a spell-school differentiation. High-HP Summoners, or a really good dedicated FE, maybe.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 00:56

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

The opposite of Og has been suggested: abysmal Spc, really good other magic aptitudes.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 01:02

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Just out of curiosity, what niches are there that are still open that wouldn't require gimmicks to differentiate them? I imagine it'd have to be a spell-school differentiation. High-HP Summoners, or a really good dedicated FE, maybe.


Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 01:05

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?


Okay... is having to wear a wizard hat instead of a helmet actually that detrimental to the playstyle? Isn't it just a difference of 1 AC?

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 01:13

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

nicolae wrote:
thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?


Okay... is having to wear a hat instead of a helmet actually that detrimental to the playstyle? Isn't it just a difference of 1 AC?


Not really, it's just a stupid gimmick that I don't like, that's all. Plus, you miss on artefacts. In my 2 years of playing, I've only found like 2-3 artefact hats and more artefact helmets that I can count. So while it's not a big deal, it is pretty annoying.

But, to be honest, the main reason is that I hate the way Minotaur wearing hat looks in tiles. He looks like a douche.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 01:20

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

thenewflesh wrote:Not really, it's just a stupid gimmick that I don't like, that's all.


Minor body-slot restrictions are gimmicks now?

Plus, you miss on artefacts. In my 2 years of playing, I've only found like 2-3 artefact hats and more artefact helmets that I can count. So while it's not a big deal, it is pretty annoying.

But, to be honest, the main reason is that I hate the way Minotaur wearing hat looks in tiles. He looks like a douche.


...okay. That's entirely true. Minotaurs in wizard hats look dumb in tiles. Maybe we could ask for a military-style cloth hat, like a green beret or something.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 01:32

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Helmets are often a source of SInv.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 04:00

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

nicolae wrote:
thenewflesh wrote:Race that's excellent at armour and doesn't have any slot restrictions, maybe?


Okay... is having to wear a wizard hat instead of a helmet actually that detrimental to the playstyle? Isn't it just a difference of 1 AC?



Actually, zero. Helmets are just as tough as caps. You lose out on horned helmets providing auxillary attacks, which isn't a big deal since you already have horns, helmets that might have the see invisible brand (rings and pretty much any randart can have it), and the stray randart helmet. Not a big deal.


multiple wrote:Stuff about hat-weirding Minotaurs looking dumb in Tiles wearing hats.


You know, you can manually change your head tile to whatever you want despite what you're actually wearing, right?
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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 04:03

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

dpeg wrote:Someone asked why there was no public discussion: Why? The forum is not our parliament :)


It's also not the greatest at memorizing abbreviations for races and needs to look them up all the time.
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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 04:04

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm


Innate transmutation ability: link three or more humans together to create a centipede.
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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 04:33

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

TwilightPhoenix wrote:You know, you can manually change your head tile to whatever you want despite what you're actually wearing, right?


I did not!

XuaXua wrote:
Roderic wrote:Sure, l can't wait to see humans replaced by the intestinal worm


Innate transmutation ability: link three or more humans together to create a centipede.


As you play, the segments at your tail end, swollen with self-fertilized eggs, fall off and break apart and hatch into allies. Also you automatically eat everything in every square you move through, right off the floor.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 07:10

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Another positive thing I've seen mentioned about Mountain Dwarves: they get bonuses from wearing dwarven equipment, further making them better melee tanks than Minotaurs. What race is going to take advantage of those bonuses now? Deep Dwarves? The race that can't really tank effectively unless they are a necromancy hybrid or pick one of the few gods that allows them a way to heal?

Also, this has already been mentioned, but the lack of being able to equip a helmet on Minotaurs is annoying. I know it's not a big deal, and they can still wear hats, but there is just something satisfying about playing a heavy armor character who can equip any piece of armor they find (except bardings of course) and just pile on the equipment.

Seriously, I don't want to be snarky to you guys (the devs), I know you do this for free and we (the players) are not entitled to your hard work. 99.9% the changes you make are welcome and improve the game. The only other time I have ever been this dissatisfied with a change you have made was the armor nerf in 0.6, which has since been rectified. There was a huge backlash against this change for a reason, and that's because it's not a good change. I'm not intending this as a personal attack on you guys, I just strongly disagree with the current design philosophy and many others do as well.

The current trend in race design are races that are different from each other through ways other than aptitudes. For some reason, the developers seems to find races that are merely different via aptitude spreads to be uninteresting. I disagree. Does a Deep Elf play similarly to a Mountain Dwarf? Not at all. Some people just want to play a simple caster, or a hybrid, or a fighter, without having to deal with an extra set of benefits and drawbacks. I welcome the new races like Felid and Octopode and enjoy playing them, but I think the core basic playstyles need to be covered first. With the removal of MD, there is only one straight forward fighter race now: Minotaur. If someone wants to play a simple heavy armour character who worships Okie, they are going to go Minotaur everytime. It's a no-brainer. (Something I thought you guys were against?)

Going to repeat this again, I think with a few simple changes you can make Minotaur more interesting and different from Mountain Dwarf. First off, give them Hooves 3. They lose an armour slot, yes, but they will do more damage in combat and still have enough slots open to protect themselves (although not as well as a Mountain Dwarf.) I'm still stuck on the Berserk thing, it's damn flavorful and would set them apart from MD. Maybe not *Rage or +Rage, as that could make them either over or underpowered, but some kind intrinsic mutation that reduces penalities from using Berserk. The slow wears off quicker, and it takes less hunger to use. Something like that. Also, for further flavor, to go with the labyrinth thing, give them passive mapping or monster sensing. They spend all their time in a maze hunting prey right? Finally, give Minotaurs decent defensive aptitudes, and great combat aptitudes. Do the reverse for Mountain Dwarves.

That's it. That's all you have to do. I think with the introduction of races like Felid, and Octopodes, which are radically different from every other race in the game, the differences between the "normal" races don't seem as apparent. Tweaking aptitudes and adding a few intrinsic mutations can go a long way in subtly making races play and feel differently. For instance, all Merfolk have to set them apart is a swimming mutation, and good Polearms and Ice Magic. That's enough to give them a lot of depth and make them play differently from any other race.

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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 07:13

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

TwilightPhoenix wrote:Actually, zero. Helmets are just as tough as caps.


If I recall correctly, hats provide no base AC bonus in trunk. Still, only a minor gripe.

TwilightPhoenix wrote:
multiple wrote:Stuff about hat-weirding Minotaurs looking dumb in Tiles wearing hats.


You know, you can manually change your head tile to whatever you want despite what you're actually wearing, right?


Better yet, switch to the console interface.

Nyuk, nyuk.

But seriously, go console.



Also, @goo, it would seem it's not so much Minotaur vs Dwarf as a matter of 'who's getting cut', but between Hill Orcs and Dwarves, with Hill Orcs ultimately winning out due to Beogh, and Minotaurs being there to reinforce their decision. (Which if you ask me, sounds like an excuse, but hey, noone friggin' asked me.)
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Post Saturday, 29th October 2011, 07:39

Re: "Give Mountain Dwarves the axe"

Megabass wrote:
Also, @goo, it would seem it's not so much Minotaur vs Dwarf as a matter of 'who's getting cut', but between Hill Orcs and Dwarves, with Hill Orcs ultimately winning out due to Beogh, and Minotaurs being there to reinforce their decision. (Which if you ask me, sounds like an excuse, but hey, noone friggin' asked me.)


That makes even less sense to me, because Hill Orcs with Beogh already play vastly differently from Mountain Dwarves. At least the difference in playstyle is greater than that of Minotaur vs Mountain Dwarf.

I like the "reverse Ogre" idea in regards to Hill Orcs and their spellcasting. Do that, change Minotaur up a bit to be more offense oriented, and keep MD the same for the most part (maybe change their weapon aptitudes so they are only good with maces and axes.) That should be enough to make them all play differently in my opinion. When the weapon specialization finally goes in, I'm sure these races will be even more differentiated.

Oh well, I'm not sure why I keep typing up these novels on MD as they are probably not going to be considered very hardly by the devs. I doubt this change will be reversed, and I'm still going to keep playing this game regardless, so whatever.

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