sanka wrote:That's fair to request that the target difficulty should be aimed to more average players, which I am one too (I only beat all four hells in 1 game).
I think this is an important question.
When you begin ( as a crawler) you might be happy to get your 1st 15-rune win with an easy combo in 100k.
Feels fantastic. (Felt fantastic for me)
Then you might realize that there are players who can do that in 50% of the turns and even consistently with less easy combos.
This was one of the things that kept me playing.
There is so much room to improve your skill even after winning.
Imo good players try to get it done now with less turns (or come up with self-imposed challendes to remain interested).
This means less xp, less consumables, less spells, less equipment.
Skill-based.
This is imo excellent design of the game.
When you target the difficulty at 'more average players': what does this mean ?
It could mean: easier monster, more items, etc.
It could also mean: After grinding for > 100k turns grabbing all items and developing lvl9-spells, there 'should' be some reward.
Finally an area where you can use all of these spells/items.
A 'challenge'.
Which is a joke.
To me the Hells (I have 12 15-rune-wins in 0.28 now, some of them are xyCA-hs) look like something which was designed for average players.
Players who hardly ever make it to extended and when they do they have excellent equipment.
For me it has turned the majority of the game into a grinding experience because right now I know that I should get every slaying if I want to melee in Dis.
Or get the spell which I think is needed now to get 'ready'.
I' won't talk about what happened to abyss.
I have never been grinding there.
Now I'm forced to grind Pan to get my stats back.
I don't know exactly what happened to abyss.
I have 12 runs through the new abyss now and spent a looooong time there in lvl4+5.
No rune vault.
At least not visible because most of the time I can hardly see anything but walls (is this changed ? Never had this happen before so often).
So it might be that a rune vault was on screen but not visible to me.
There are some changes in my play which I could think of.
To me I had a set of skills/items 'needed' (according to my skill) for a win. Whenever I realized I could do with less the whole game changed.
This has changed a lot with removing depth 5/XP. Also had a depth-lvl with hardly any monster which means less xp.
So I could just decide to skip most of the Dungeon/depths/Vaults/Lair branches and check what I 'need' to do Pand. earlier or zigging.
It is 1 strategy some players do. Get 1 big spell ready for zigg and get the rest there.
I don't like that.
Right now the most pointless experience is going into DIS with TSO with a broad axe
Tomb is switched to rune #5 or #6.
One of the most powerful items in the game (potion of attraction) has more or less trivialized tomb (and other vaults).
There are so many changes that I cannot help but think: do you (the developers) know what you're doing ?
I'm not talking about intentions.
When I want to see what is possible (or not) I switch to looking at the best players (Yermak is the most likely example).
I'll give an example (developd in my own but is apllied by others, too):
Potion of attraction may have looked like 'fun'.
But clustered in a big chunk close to you summoners cannot summon anything. They are also nothing more like cannon fodder if you apply immolation or Vane/acid wand/tin. Monster density leads to short time of refilling these evos. Which can be used AGAIN.
So you've added POWERFUL items for mass destruction combined with a clustering-item (attraction) which leads to trivializing whole areas.
The first time I killed all of elf 3 (former dangerous territory) with that combo I felt smart (most but not all layouts of elf 3 are optimal for this).
Now I feel cheated. Each of these items alone is..something. But combined it is offloading evos into content.
Same with Tomb. Without attraction most dangerous monsters would stay out of reach and fill the screen with summons while smiting/tormenting you. With attraction and the new improved potion of lign. Tomb has become so much easier.
It doesn't feel smart anymore but it feels like 12 year olds changed a game into something short-sighted which promised more 'fun' and more 'power' without thinking about consequences.
This sounds harsh and I know that 'm playing a game for free developed by dedicated programmers in their free time.
I'm grateful for this.
This is also the reason why I'm writing this.
Adding/Improving 1 item is one thing but combined with other items the effects on formerly well-designed areas can become devasting.
Reading what you (the devs) wrote what you want the game to be I cannot help but think: you don't play these areas very often ?
And you don't watch good players what they can do there ?
Which means you'll have not the kind of feed-back you need for what you want because average players won't know.
When you look back at 10 versions ago:
There were so many new dangerous monsters introduced since then.
Most of them fast, ranged attack or targeting (early) an uncommon resist to make the game 'harder'.
Was the game really that easy 10 versions ago ?
It wasn't.
To me it seems like you're handing out extremely powerful items AND adding powerful monster.
The net effect to me is a bit pointless. The game becomes more and more item-based.
Which is fine if you intended that but I don't think so.
So that's what I'll be doing: watching other players games.
Problem: there are not many 15 rune games to watch.
It's rather the opposite. Players used to watch my games when I played extended.
I'll stop playing DCSS and see what other players can come up with.
(I'm not interested in watching players auto-exploring Pan with turn-counts>90k applying lvl-9-spells.)
The breaking-point of my interest in the game was in Zot 5 in 0.27 (?) when I experienced 'You lose the ability to read scrolls when threatened'.
I have no idea what someone else thinks when I should feel threatened but I didn't. Until I had -scroll.
Then I gave up.
For the first time in DCSS I simply gave up.
Blurry vision was ok. -scroll is not.
The new improved Hell and the new improved Abyss where I read that the new improvement should disencourage grinding which I haven't done before leads to me playing a grinding game now.
Not my game anymore.
I'm not even able to play as concentrated as before which is a good sign for me that I should stop playing for a while.
Until better players than me can show me (I'll certainly watch Yermak who is one of the few who actually plays Extended with some certainity)
Disclaimer: I'm not an extreme low-turn-speed-runner ninjaing runes. Just high win%, streak, 1and1, hs. Had some house rules like: always 15 runes, never use necromutation.
Btw: I don't think scrolls of acq/shops/etc should be handed out that easily. To me it doesn't 'spice up' the game. Now I'm spoiled when I don't get anything. It seems just to lead to players bragging about their ITEMS. Which is the opposite of the game I thought I was playing.
Saturday, 28th August 2021, 11:51 
