Weapon choice M&F

[delarado]

Simple question really. All else being equal, +9 demon whip of electrocution or +9 eveningstar of holy wrath?

3 rune game. MiMo in CPA, no spells and 25 STR.

I’m thinking eveningstar, am i right?

[Sprucery]

Why not both?

[Siegurt]

EveningStar will be better against all holy-vulnerable critters, demon whip will definitely be better against elec-but-not-holy-vulnerable critters.

Things that are immune to both holy and elec damage, it's a toss up, it will be really really close (to the extent that it's probably best to just use whatever's in hand already and not bother agonizing over micro-optimizations), but the edge will probably go to the dWhip against things that have typical rages of ACs, but the EveningStar for things are vulnerable to neither and have the highest end of ACs (OOFs and Crystal Guardians)

If you want to be actually absolutely certain, wizmode it.

Note also that slaying will push the damage more towards a dWhip advantage, but it would take a whole lot of slaying to push it's damage past the eveningstar's damage against holy-vulnerable critters.

[stormdragon]

Your Fighting and M&F skill levels are also relevant since they multiply base damage. I'll assume you have about 16 in each and thus get about +60% to base damage. The STR you have mentioned also provides you about +37.5% to base damage. These stack multiplicatively, to become +120% base damage.

So a demon whip's base damage of 11 becomes 24.2, and the eveningstar's base damage of 15 becomes 33.

As Siegurt mentioned, slaying and AC are going to affect the demon whip somewhat more because of its lower damage. To make things simple, let's assume slaying cancels out enemy AC (which, assuming you have no slaying sources besides enchantment, is going to be roughly true on caustic shrikes and liches).

The demon whip gets 7 attacks per the eveningstar's 5, so with our assumption that AC has been canceled, we can just multiply 24.2 * 7/5 = 33.88.

So with these assumptions, before factoring in brands, they are doing pretty much the same amount of damage, with a very slight edge to the demon whip.

This is looking like...exactly what Siegurt said. Nice. So yeah just read his reply. I would just add that most enemies are susceptible to electrocution, while very few are susceptible to holy wrath, so you should probably use the demon whip.

Note also that slaying will push the damage more towards a dWhip advantage, but it would take a whole lot of slaying to push it's damage past the eveningstar's damage against holy-vulnerable critters.

This is purely academic, but, I don't think it's possible for the demon whip to surpass the eveningstar when the holy wrath brand is activating. While the demon whip naturally applies slaying more because of its speed (7/5), the eveningstar will apply slaying more when its brand kicks in (1.75). Both increased speed and holy brand can be considered post-AC modifications to damage and in this case holy wrath is the greater multiplier.

[Siegurt]

This is looking like...exactly what Siegurt said. Nice. So yeah just read his reply. I would just add that most enemies are susceptible to electrocution, while very few are susceptible to holy wrath, so you should probably use the demon whip.

I skipped the details of the calculation (because I've done it many times before and have it memorized) I just assume that most people who ask questions like on the forum just want an answer

Portion of vulnerable critters depends on where, Hell/Pan/Tomb/Crypt nearly everything is vulnerable to holy damage. Elsewhere, yes, it's much more elec-vulnerable than holy-vulnerable (I recommend keeping both weapons around, and swappping where appropriate, 1 extra inventory slot isn't a very large tax to pay and switching weapons is very fast.)

[stormdragon]

True, but OP said 3 rune game.

Edited my post to include an academic comment at the end (I am sure it will not end up being relevant to OP)

[Siegurt]

Note also that slaying will push the damage more towards a dWhip advantage, but it would take a whole lot of slaying to push it's damage past the eveningstar's damage against holy-vulnerable critters.

This is purely academic, but, I don't think it's possible for the demon whip to surpass the eveningstar when the holy wrath brand is activating. While the demon whip naturally applies slaying more because of its speed (7/5), the eveningstar will apply slaying more when its brand kicks in (1.75). Both increased speed and holy brand can be considered post-AC modifications to damage and in this case holy wrath is the greater multiplier.

Slaying also applies to aux attacks in this case the Mi Headbutt, so each point of slaying applies 1.4 times per attack (assuming sufficient str+dex) That is to say, you get a point of slaying on each attack and additionally on each headbutt which occurs on 40% of all attacks with sufficient stats.

Holy's bonus to Slaying is (an average of) 75% for each point
dWhip's faster Speed *with* the bonus to headbutt damage on a Mi with sufficient Str+Dex is 1.4*1.4 = 1.96 = (an average of) 96% bonus damage to Slaying for each point.

[stormdragon]

Slaying also applies to aux attacks in this case the Mi Headbutt, so each point of slaying applies 1.4 times per attack (assuming sufficient str+dex) That is to say, you get a point of slaying on each attack and additionally on each headbutt which occurs on 40% of all attacks with sufficient stats.

Holy's bonus to Slaying is (an average of) 75% for each point
dWhip's faster Speed *with* the bonus to headbutt damage on a Mi with sufficient Str+Dex is 1.4*1.4 = 1.96 = (an average of) 96% bonus damage to Slaying for each point.

Good on you, I didn't think of aux attacks, but even then I think the holy wrath scales better on average. Holy wrath multiplies 1 slaying into 1.75, then your 40% chance of headbutt adds 0.4 to that and it becomes 2.15.
The demon whip is as you say: (1 + 0.4) * 7/5 = 1.4 * 1.4 = 1.96.

[Siegurt]

Slaying also applies to aux attacks in this case the Mi Headbutt, so each point of slaying applies 1.4 times per attack (assuming sufficient str+dex) That is to say, you get a point of slaying on each attack and additionally on each headbutt which occurs on 40% of all attacks with sufficient stats.

Holy's bonus to Slaying is (an average of) 75% for each point
dWhip's faster Speed *with* the bonus to headbutt damage on a Mi with sufficient Str+Dex is 1.4*1.4 = 1.96 = (an average of) 96% bonus damage to Slaying for each point.

Good on you, I didn't think of aux attacks, but even then I think the holy wrath scales better on average. Holy wrath multiplies 1 slaying into 1.75, then your 40% chance of headbutt adds 0.4 to that and it becomes 2.15.
The demon whip is as you say: (1 + 0.4) * 7/5 = 1.4 * 1.4 = 1.96.

We're only talking about the bonus applied to slaying, holy doesn't increase damage to slaying on aux attacks (You only get the holy bonus on your eveningstar's attack), faster attack speed applies to both.

[stormdragon]

That's right. +0.4 is for a normal headbutt. If I thought holy wrath applied to headbutts, I would have said +0.7.

Slaying bonus, eveningstar, no aux: 1
Slaying bonus, eveningstar, 40% chance of headbutt: 1 + 0.4 = 1.4
Slaying bonus, holy wrath eveningstar, 40% chance of headbutt: 1 * 1.75 + 0.4 = 2.15

Slaying bonus, demon whip, no aux: 1 * 7/5 = 1.4
Slaying bonus, demon whip, 40% chance of headbutt: (1 + 0.4) * 7/5 = 1.96

See what I'm saying? Eveningstars still get a headbutt, even if it's not increased by holy wrath.

[delarado]

I think 1 of them is +3 and one is +2 right now, but I have 8 enchant scrolls. I think I’ll max out the demon whip and then use the rest on the eveningstar and keep it for high AC/demonic/undead things (E.g if i see Boris)

  Code:

  Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.24.0-13-gcf9b3192b9 (webtiles) character file.

Delarado the Slayer (Minotaur Monk)                Turns: 37954, Time: 04:21:40

Health: 182/182    AC: 40    Str: 27    XL:     18   Next: 7%
Magic:  23/23      EV:  9    Int: 15    God:    Okawaru [******]
Gold:   1633       SH: 23    Dex: 18    Spells: 17/17 levels left

rFire    + . .     SeeInvis +   K - +4 flail of Mayhem {crush, rPois MR+ Str+4 Int+3}
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   j - +3 shield "Nimithry" {Int+3}
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   N - +7 crystal plate armour
rPois    +         Spirit   .   b - +1 hat
rElec    +         Reflect  +   T - +2 cloak {MR+}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   U - +1 pair of gloves of Lonnun {rF+ Int+2}
MR       +++..                  M - +0 pair of boots
Stlth    ..........             q - +5 amulet of reflection
HPRegen  0.40/turn              O - ring of see invisible
MPRegen  0.18/turn              R - ring "Etsix" {rElec rC+ Dex+4}

@: no status effects
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
}: 1/15 runes: decaying
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion


You are on level 3 of the Spider Nest.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 30 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.

You have collected 3534 gold pieces.
You have spent 1901 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 x - a shimmering fustibalus
 A - a +2 eveningstar of holy wrath
 K - the +4 flail of Mayhem (weapon) {crush, rPois MR+ Str+4 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It protects you from poison.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 W - a +3 demon whip of electrocution
Missiles
 g - 25 atropa-tipped darts
 t - a silver javelin
 u - 11 boomerangs of dispersal
 v - 11 boomerangs (quivered)
 y - 10 datura-tipped darts
 E - 4 javelins
Armour
 b - a +1 hat (worn)
 j - the +3 shield "Nimithry" (worn) {Int+3}
   (You acquired it on level 1 of the Spider Nest)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
 M - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
 N - a +7 crystal plate armour (worn)
 T - a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 U - the +1 pair of gloves of Lonnun (worn) {rF+ Int+2}
   (You found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It protects you from fire.
Jewellery
 q - a +5 amulet of reflection (around neck)
 O - a ring of see invisible (left hand)
 Q - an uncursed ring of fire
 R - the ring "Etsix" (right hand) {rElec rC+ Dex+4}
   (You acquired it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of protection from cold]
   
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
 S - an uncursed ring of resist corrosion
 V - an uncursed ring of protection from magic
 Y - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
Wands
 l - a wand of acid (38)
 s - a wand of disintegration (6)
 C - a wand of digging (3)
 X - a wand of paralysis (15)
Scrolls
 a - 14 scrolls of remove curse
 h - 8 scrolls of teleportation
 i - 3 scrolls of magic mapping
 n - 10 scrolls of blinking
 o - 3 scrolls of fog
 p - 9 scrolls of enchant weapon
 D - a scroll of silence
 J - 6 scrolls of fear
Potions
 d - 3 potions of ambrosia
 e - 4 potions of heal wounds
 f - 3 potions of haste
 k - 3 potions of cancellation
 m - 2 potions of flight
 r - a potion of invisibility
 w - 5 potions of curing
 B - 2 potions of magic
 F - 2 potions of might
 G - a potion of resistance
 I - 6 potions of agility
 L - 2 potions of berserk rage
Miscellaneous
 H - a lamp of fire
 Z - 3 phantom mirrors
Comestibles
 c - 37 rations


   Skills:
 - Level 21.1 Fighting
 + Level 17.1 Maces & Flails
 - Level 6.0 Throwing
 - Level 16.0 Armour
 - Level 5.0 Dodging
 - Level 6.0 Stealth
 - Level 15.0 Shields
 - Level 8.5 Invocations
 - Level 5.0 Evocations


You have 17 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.
Your spell library contains the following spells:

 Spells                   Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
 Animate Skeleton         Necr           N/A          99%         1    ##.....
 Apportation              Tloc           #.....       99%         1    ##.....
 Beastly Appendage        Tmut           #.....       99%         1    ##.....
 Confusing Touch          Hex            #.....       99%         1    ##.....
 Corona                   Hex            #......      99%         1    ##.....
 Summon Small Mammal      Summ           #...         99%         1    ##.....
 Ensorcelled Hibernation  Hex/Ice        #.....       100%        2    ###....
 Sticks to Snakes         Tmut           #.......     100%        2    ###....
 Confuse                  Hex            #.......     100%        3    ####...
 Dazzling Spray           Conj/Hex       #.....       100%        3    ####...
 Spider Form              Tmut/Pois      #.........   100%        3    ####...
 Tukima's Dance           Hex            #.......     100%        3    ####...
 Ice Form                 Ice/Tmut       #.......     100%        4    #####..
 Blade Hands              Tmut           #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Borgnjor's Vile Clutch   Necr/Erth      #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Metabolic Englaciation   Hex/Ice        #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Silence                  Hex/Air        #.........   100%        5    ######.
 Bolt of Cold             Conj/Ice       #.........   100%        6    #######
 Darkness                 Hex            #.........   100%        6    #######
 Freezing Cloud           Conj/Ice/Air   #.........   100%        6    #######
 Ozocubu's Refrigeration  Ice            #.........   100%        6    #######
 Shadow Creatures         Summ           N/A          100%        6    #######
 Simulacrum               Ice/Necr       #.........   100%        6    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (14/15)            Temple (1/1) D:4            Lair (6/6) D:10
  Swamp (4/4) Lair:4       Spider (3/4) Lair:4        Slime (0/5) Lair:6
    Orc (2/2) D:9             Elf (0/3) Orc:2        Vaults (0/5) D:13
  IceCv (visited)         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Gozag
Hepliaklqana
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Qazlal
Ru
Sif Muna
Trog
Uskayaw
Vehumet
Wu Jian
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
The Shining One

Shops:
D:6 }   D:9 (   D:12 ?   Orc:2 %=?*

Annotations:
D:9 exclusion: statue
D:11 2 runed translucent doors, topfpfpflanze's ghost, novice MfGl
Lair:2 exclusion: oklob plant


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee.
You have a pair of horns on your head.


Message History

You block the moth of wrath's attack.
You barely miss the moth of wrath. You headbutt the moth of wrath.
You kill the moth of wrath!
Okawaru accepts your kill.
No target in view!
You butcher the moth of wrath corpse.
z - a chunk of flesh
Eating a chunk of flesh. You eat the chunk of flesh.
This raw flesh tastes terrible.
Partly explored, can't reach some places.
Partly explored, can't reach some places.
Okay, then.
Saving game... please wait.
Welcome back, Delarado the Minotaur Monk.
Okawaru says: Bring me glory in combat!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Search for what [? for help]? Brand
Search for what [Enter for "Brand", or ? for help]? Brand weap
Can't find anything matching that.
Saving game... please wait.

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..#..^..#.^.........#.^#..≈#
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There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Nikola (Swamp:1)
  Arachne (Spider:2)
  Rupert (Lair:5)
  A thorn hunter (Swamp:2)
  An Executioner (Abyss:3)
  Kirke (Swamp:1)
  Donald (Swamp:3)
  A ghost moth (Spider:3)
  A frost giant (IceCv)
  A draconian shifter (Abyss:3)
  An emperor scorpion (Spider:3)
  A very ugly thing (Swamp:4)
  An entropy weaver (Spider:2)
  Nessos (D:14)
  A stone giant (Orc:1)
  A green death (Abyss:3)
  Josephine (D:10)
  2 ogre magi (Orc:2)
  3 fire dragons (Swamp:4)
  A rakshasa (D:13)
  A vault guard (D:13)
  Harold (Lair:2)
  2 centaur warriors (D:13)
  3 ghost crabs
  3 shambling mangroves
  21 hydras
  A merfolk avatar (Lair:6)
  A death knight (D:13)
  A catoblepas (D:14)
  11 two-headed ogres
  5 death yaks (Lair:6)
  A tengu warrior (D:13)
  14 alligators
  Urug (D:10)
  18 slime creatures
  A fire crab (Swamp:4)
  2 sixfirhies (Abyss:3)
  2 wretched stars (Abyss:3)
  3 spriggan druids
  2 deep trolls (Orc:2)
  A sea snake (Lair:6)
  2 unseen horrors
  A phantasmal warrior (D:13)
  2 lindwurms (Swamp:4)
  A wizard (D:13)
  5 swamp dragons
  A harpy (Lair:6)
  A wolf spider zombie (D:14)
  11 wolf spiders
  11 rime drakes
  2 deep elf magi
  3 ugly things
  A manticore (D:11)
  19 orb spiders
  4 cyclopes
  4 moths of wrath
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  5 black mambas
  2 apocalypse crabs (Abyss:3)
  A black mamba (shapeshifter) (Abyss:3)
  11 trolls
  2 torpor snails
  2 smoke demons (Abyss:3)
  12 elephants
  An eye of devastation (Lair:6)
  A gargoyle (D:13)
  An efreet (D:14)
  4 kobold demonologists
  25 spiny frogs
  13 komodo dragons
  12 demonic crawlers
  A tengu conjurer (D:14)
  A merfolk (D:12)
  21 polar bears
  18 jumping spiders
  Grinder (D:4)
  18 tyrant leeches
  A wind drake (Lair:6)
  A large abomination (Abyss:3)
  9 bog bodies
  14 hornets
  11 dream sheep
  15 hippogriffs
  18 blink frogs
  Sigmund (D:4)
  A hog (Swamp:1)
  4 shadows
  A vampire (Abyss:3)
  36 redbacks
  6 spriggans
  14 tarantellas
  8 wraiths
  55 yaks
  4 fire bats (Swamp:4)
  13 wyverns
  6 steam dragons (Swamp:4)
  17 vampire mosquitoes
  2 basilisks
  3 wargs
  An acid dragon (D:13)
  3 hell hounds (D:14)
  3 insubstantial wisps (Swamp:3)
  22 swamp worms
  2 soldier ants
  13 water moccasins
  10 porcupines
  22 orc warriors
  9 swamp drakes
  A small abomination (Abyss:3)
  3 ice beasts
  A sky beast (D:9)
  A black bear (Lair:5)
  14 wolves
  An eye of draining (Lair:6)
  2 necrophages
  27 ogres
  8 centaurs
  22 crocodiles
  Blork the orc (D:5)
  3 big kobolds
  25 bullfrogs
  A gnoll sergeant (D:8)
  2 wyvern skeletons (D:13)
  7 scorpions
  6 killer bees (D:10)
  11 wights
  3 electric eels
  2 howler monkeys (D:9)
  2 lava snakes (Swamp:4)
  5 crimson imps
  A bullfrog zombie (D:6)
  11 hounds
  4 quasits
  4 centaur zombies
  A bullfrog skeleton (D:8)
  12 orc priests
  15 orc wizards
  Ijyb (D:3)
  5 centaur skeletons
  6 iguanas (D:11)
  Natasha (D:3)
  7 worker ants
  A hound zombie (D:6)
  A howler monkey zombie (D:9)
  Robin (D:2)
  16 adders
  5 gnolls
  5 shadow imps
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  2 worms (D:3)
  A dart slug (D:2)
  13 leopard geckos
  87 orcs
  A ball python (D:3)
  3 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  11 hobgoblins
  5 jackals
  5 quokkas
  10 bats
  16 frilled lizards
  A jackal skeleton (D:5)
  22 kobolds
  A leopard gecko skeleton (D:8)
  A quokka zombie (D:5)
  8 rats
  A plant (Lair:6)
1107 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  An orc knight (Orc:1)
  5 elephants
  A rime drake (IceCv)
  A troll (D:14)
  A hippogriff (Lair:5)
  2 yaks
  A warg (Orc:1)
  3 orc warriors (Orc:1)
  An ice beast (D:14)
  2 wolves (Lair:3)
  An ogre (Orc:1)
  5 centaurs (D:14)
  A bullfrog (Lair:3)
  A gnoll sergeant (Orc:1)
  A crimson imp (D:14)
  3 orc priests
  3 orc wizards
  4 gnolls
  24 orcs
61 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  2 hydras
  A centaur warrior (D:13)
  A two-headed ogre (Orc:2)
  A cyclops (D:13)
  2 spiny frogs (Swamp:1)
  3 polar bears (IceCv)
  A blink frog (Lair:6)
  A redback (Spider:1)
  3 yaks
  A hog (Swamp:1)
  A steam dragon (Swamp:4)
  2 swamp drakes (Swamp:4)
  A wolf (IceCv)
  An ogre (Orc:2)
  2 centaurs (D:13)
  A big kobold (D:8)
  A hound (D:10)
  An orc wizard (D:10)
  An orc priest (Orc:1)
  A worker ant (D:6)
  An iguana (D:10)
  A shadow imp (D:13)
  An orc (D:6)
  2 fungi (Lair:6)
  9 plants
42 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1210 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Delarado the Minotaur Monk began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/0
   158 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 26/26 MP: 1/1
   771 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
   771 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 31/31 MP: 2/2
   791 | D:2      | Noticed Robin
   819 | D:2      | Killed Robin
   963 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 32/39 MP: 3/3
  1391 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
  1514 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 44/45 MP: 4/4
  2247 | D:3      | Noticed Ijyb
  2261 | D:3      | Killed Ijyb
  2261 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 39/51 MP: 5/5
  2408 | D:3      | Noticed Natasha
  2430 | D:3      | Killed Natasha
  2593 | D:4      | Noticed Sigmund
  2610 | D:4      | Killed Sigmund
  2822 | D:4      | Noticed Grinder
  2835 | D:4      | Paralysed by Grinder for 2 turns
  2847 | D:4      | Killed Grinder
  2847 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 49/57 MP: 6/6
  2938 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  2961 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  3114 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Warmaster Okawaru
  3114 | Temple   | Reached * piety under Okawaru
  3114 | Temple   | Reached ** piety under Okawaru
  3681 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  3689 | D:5      | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
  3770 | D:5      | Noticed Blork the orc
  3781 | D:5      | Killed Blork the orc
  3781 | D:5      | Reached skill level 4 in Fighting
  3781 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  3978 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 66/66 MP: 7/7
  4426 | D:6      | You fall into a shaft and drop 2 floors!
  4483 | D:8      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  4507 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  4531 | D:7      | Noticed a hippogriff
  4541 | D:7      | Killed a hippogriff
  4543 | D:7      | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
  4557 | D:7      | Reached *** piety under Okawaru
  4557 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
  4868 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
  4875 | D:6      | Upgraded the game from 0.24.0-7-gb3623d2c88 to
                  | 0.24.0-10-g970556be89
  5184 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 69/79 MP: 8/8
  5187 | D:6      | Found Gotaiq's Gadget Shoppe.
  5400 | D:6      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5611 | D:7      | Reached **** piety under Okawaru
  5611 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
  6588 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  6700 | D:8      | Noticed a kobold demonologist
  6700 | D:8      | Noticed a kobold demonologist
  6701 | D:8      | Noticed a kobold demonologist
  6702 | D:8      | Noticed a smoke demon
  6727 | D:8      | Noticed a smoke demon
  6727 | D:8      | Killed a kobold demonologist
  6732 | D:8      | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
  6733 | D:8      | Noticed a rust devil
  6737 | D:8      | Killed a kobold demonologist
  6737 | D:8      | Received a gift from Okawaru
  6747 | D:8      | Killed a kobold demonologist
  7171 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 92/92 MP: 11/11
  7177 | D:8      | Reached ***** piety under Okawaru
  7402 | D:8      | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru.
  7423 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  7485 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  7521 | D:9      | Found Ottazola's Antique Weapon Boutique.
  7656 | D:9      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  7663 | D:9      | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council.
  7696 | D:9      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  7747 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  8009 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  8111 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  8537 | D:10     | Noticed Urug
  8556 | D:10     | Killed Urug
  8556 | D:10     | Received a gift from Okawaru
  8992 | D:10     | Noticed a rust devil
  9008 | D:10     | Noticed an orange demon
  9051 | D:10     | Noticed Josephine
  9078 | D:10     | Killed Josephine
  9078 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 54/101 MP: 10/16
  9083 | D:10     | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
  9399 | D:10     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9553 | D:10     | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  9776 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
  9794 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
  9983 | Lair:1   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 10002 | Lair:1   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 10455 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
 11400 | Lair:2   | Noticed Harold
 11413 | Lair:2   | Killed Harold
 11428 | Lair:2   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 11433 | Lair:2   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 11433 | Lair:2   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 11433 | Lair:2   | Reached ****** piety under Okawaru
 11433 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
 11497 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 115/115 MP: 9/17
 11984 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 13017 | Lair:4   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 13020 | Lair:4   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 13028 | Lair:4   | Killed an eight-headed hydra
 13528 | Lair:4   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 13784 | Lair:4   | Got a pair of smoking gloves
 13795 | Lair:4   | Identified the +1 pair of gloves of Lonnun {rF+ Int+2} (You
                  | found it on level 4 of the Lair of Beasts)
 13848 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 97/123 MP: 18/18
 13955 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 14 in Fighting
 14333 | Lair:5   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 14334 | Lair:5   | Got a fine brass ring
 14336 | Lair:5   | Identified the ring "Etsix" {rElec rC+ Dex+4} (You acquired
                  | it on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)
 14472 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Throwing
 14528 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 14535 | Lair:5   | Found a frozen archway.
 14544 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 14574 | IceCv    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 14918 | IceCv    | Got a twisted cloak
 14929 | IceCv    | Identified the -6 cloak "Miodog" {rF+ Int+5} (You found it
                  | in an ice cave)
 15209 | IceCv    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 15210 | IceCv    | Got a blackened hand axe {god gift}
 15217 | IceCv    | Identified the +7 hand axe "Fougg" {freeze, Fragile rF+++
                  | MR+ Dex+7} (Okawaru gifted it to you in an ice cave)
 15384 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 15439 | IceCv    | Killed a frost giant
 16237 | Lair:5   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 16316 | Lair:5   | Noticed Rupert
 16337 | Lair:5   | Killed Rupert
 16337 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 16753 | Lair:6   | Entered Level 6 of the Lair of Beasts
 16753 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 17242 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 17438 | D:9      | Bought a runed morningstar for 231 gold pieces
 17468 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 17475 | Orc:1    | Noticed a stone giant
 17507 | Orc:1    | Killed a stone giant
 17507 | Orc:1    | Reached XP level 14. HP: 89/135 MP: 13/19
 18170 | Orc:2    | Entered Level 2 of the Orcish Mines
 18216 | Orc:2    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 18489 | Orc:2    | Received a gift from Okawaru
 18919 | Orc:2    | Found Ukajog's Assorted Antiques.
 18921 | Orc:2    | Found Zauharyt's Jewellery Emporium.
 18931 | Orc:2    | Found Deful's Food Shoppe.
 18932 | Orc:2    | Found Wiwagas's Magic Scroll Shoppe.
 18951 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of blinking for 97 gold pieces
 18951 | Orc:2    | Bought a scroll of fog for 26 gold pieces
 19375 | Orc:2    | Bought a polished cloak for 266 gold pieces
 19385 | Orc:2    | Identified the +1 cloak "Yqor" {Dex+5} (You bought it in a
                  | shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)
 19401 | Orc:2    | Bought a +5 amulet of reflection for 576 gold pieces
 19440 | Orc:1    | Reached skill level 15 in Maces & Flails
 20341 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 21162 | Lair:6   | Received a gift from Okawaru
 21189 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting
 21315 | Lair:6   | Reached XP level 15. HP: 121/144 MP: 20/20
 21735 | Lair:6   | Upgraded the game from 0.24.0-10-g970556be89 to
                  | 0.24.0-13-gcf9b3192b9
 22011 | D:11     | Got a smoking dagger
 22016 | D:11     | Identified the cursed +3 dagger of Douryava {drain, Int+4}
                  | (You found it on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 22118 | D:11     | Noticed topfpfpflanze's ghost (novice MfGl)
 22118 | D:11     | Noticed a lich
 22514 | D:11     | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 22573 | D:11     | Found a runed translucent door.
 22581 | D:11     | Found a runed translucent door.
 23056 | D:12     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 23215 | D:12     | Found Mualoed's Magic Scroll Emporium.
 23237 | D:12     | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon for 135 gold pieces
 23237 | D:12     | Bought 3 scrolls of magic mapping for 189 gold pieces
 23237 | D:12     | Bought a scroll of enchant weapon for 135 gold pieces
 23239 | D:12     | Bought a scroll of identify for 36 gold pieces
 24281 | D:13     | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 24393 | D:13     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 24797 | D:13     | Got a steaming flail
 24798 | D:13     | Identified the +4 flail of Mayhem {crush, rPois MR+ Str+4
                  | Int+3} (You found it on level 13 of the Dungeon)
 25344 | Orc:2    | Bought an uncursed ring of see invisible for 210 gold
                  | pieces
 26292 | D:13     | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations
 26502 | D:13     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 26811 | D:14     | Noticed Nessos
 26827 | D:14     | Killed Nessos
 26944 | D:14     | Reached skill level 10 in Shields
 27124 | D:14     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 27236 | D:14     | Received a gift from Okawaru
 27362 | D:14     | Reached XP level 16. HP: 152/152 MP: 21/21
 27510 | D:14     | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 27861 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 28771 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Nikola
 28794 | Swamp:1  | Killed Nikola
 28921 | Swamp:1  | Noticed Kirke
 28928 | Swamp:1  | Noticed a sphinx
 28930 | Swamp:1  | Killed Kirke
 29867 | Swamp:2  | Noticed a thorn hunter
 29881 | Swamp:2  | Killed a thorn hunter
 30051 | Swamp:2  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 30299 | Swamp:2  | Reached skill level 15 in Shields
 30896 | Swamp:3  | Noticed Donald
 30902 | Swamp:3  | Killed Donald
 30902 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 17 in Fighting
 31140 | Swamp:3  | Cast into level 3 of the Abyss (spriggan rider)
 31263 | Abyss:3  | Paralysed by you for 4 turns
 31427 | Abyss:3  | Noticed an Executioner
 31434 | Abyss:3  | Killed an Executioner
 31454 | Swamp:3  | Escaped the Abyss
 31824 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 18 in Fighting
 32119 | Swamp:4  | Entered Level 4 of the Swamp
 32227 | Swamp:4  | Reached XP level 17. HP: 166/166 MP: 22/22
 32435 | Swamp:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 32586 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 19 in Fighting
 33329 | Swamp:4  | Received a gift from Okawaru
 33909 | Swamp:4  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 34076 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 34125 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 34423 | Spider:1 | Got a jewelled shield
 34434 | Spider:1 | Identified the +3 shield "Nimithry" {Int+3} (You acquired
                  | it on level 1 of the Spider Nest)
 34496 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 20 in Fighting
 35582 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 35809 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 36187 | Spider:2 | Noticed Arachne
 36207 | Spider:2 | Killed Arachne
 36305 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 21 in Fighting
 36320 | Spider:2 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 37326 | Spider:3 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 120/182 MP: 23/23
 37587 | Spider:3 | Received a gift from Okawaru
 37847 | Spider:3 | Got a shimmering fustibalus

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------------------+-----
Maces & Flails |  4  5     6  7  9 10             12    16          17 | 17.1
Shields        |           1  3  4                         11 15       | 15.0
Fighting       |                    4  7  9 10 13    15 16    18 21    | 21.1
Armour         |                    1  6  8  9 12 13 15    16          | 16.0
Invocations    |                          3  8                         |  8.5
Throwing       |                                   4  6                |  6.0
Stealth        |                                   4  6                |  6.0
Evocations     |                                            5          |  5.0
Dodging        |                                                  5    |  5.0

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Mace              |    42 |       |       |       |       |       ||    42
       Headbutt          |    11 |    25 |    57 |   186 |   513 |   324 ||  1116
       Whip              |    38 |   163 |   259 |   805 |   459 |       ||  1724
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |       |  1069 |       ||  1069
       Flail             |       |       |       |       |   140 |   982 ||  1122
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |       |    39 ||    39
Throw: Dart              |       |     7 |    17 |    30 |    37 |    16 ||   107
       Boomerang         |       |     3 |       |     5 |    27 |   745 ||   780
       Javelin           |       |       |       |    17 |   120 |    23 ||   160
Invok: Heroism           |       |       |     1 |     8 |     8 |     7 ||    24
       Finesse           |       |       |       |     3 |     6 |     4 ||    13
Evoke: Wand              |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |     8 |     7 |     7 |    15 |    12 ||    49
       Potion            |       |     2 |     1 |     2 |     3 |       ||     8
 Stab: Invisible         |       |       |     1 |       |     3 |     1 ||     5
       Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Confused          |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |       |     6 |    14 |    18 |    27 |    18 ||    83
       Ration            |       |       |       |     1 |     5 |     5 ||    11
Armor: Scale mail        |    32 |    45 |    15 |       |       |       ||    92
       Chain mail        |       |       |    41 |       |       |       ||    41
       Plate armour      |       |       |    31 |    58 |       |       ||    89
       Crystal plate arm |       |       |       |   447 |  1066 |   665 ||  2178
Dodge: Dodged            |    36 |    67 |    75 |   140 |   367 |   246 ||   931
Block: Buckler           |       |    28 |    53 |   133 |   608 |   124 ||   946
       Reflection        |       |       |       |       |    21 |    21 ||    42
       Shield            |       |       |       |       |       |   899 ||   899


[TheMeInTeam]

As others said for 3 rune the demon whip will usually be better given the brands. I also advocate holding onto both. Enemies susceptible to holy wrath aren't as common in 3 rune but they are still often things you want to die pretty quickly (lich variants, tentacled monstrosities, curse toes, death cobs as examples). Swapping is worth getting rid of stuff like that faster.

[Siegurt]

That's right. +0.4 is for a normal headbutt. If I thought holy wrath applied to headbutts, I would have said +0.7.

Slaying bonus, eveningstar, no aux: 1
Slaying bonus, eveningstar, 40% chance of headbutt: 1 + 0.4 = 1.4
Slaying bonus, holy wrath eveningstar, 40% chance of headbutt: 1 * 1.75 + 0.4 = 2.15

Slaying bonus, demon whip, no aux: 1 * 7/5 = 1.4
Slaying bonus, demon whip, 40% chance of headbutt: (1 + 0.4) * 7/5 = 1.96

See what I'm saying? Eveningstars still get a headbutt, even if it's not increased by holy wrath.

Yes, you're right, I was comparing "the bonus to slaying from holy brand" to "the bonus to slaying from increased speed" which isn't a useful comparison, because, as you point out, you still get benefit from slaying on your headbutt even if it's not boosted by holy.