no random stat gain pls.


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Lair Larrikin

Posts: 24

Joined: Wednesday, 15th November 2017, 07:15

Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 14:02

no random stat gain pls.

So i play and as game comes to level 3-5 i can choose on stat gain. and so i decide i am gonna be a caster so i choose INT.
Then game makes random stat gain and gives me STR. totally useless.
So why STR? did i made some funky exercises in dungeon? whats reasoning behind that? we all know it is just old nasty 50% chance because of RND god tribute.

Can a game have a mode where you play without random but with manual stat gain? so you can actually choose what stat you can gain?

I am typing that hoping there are others like me.
Also i am sharing mechanics of that game that turns me off mostly. that random stat gain... nothing else can make me wanna delete account and not coming back.


edited. i made a typo i was referring to INT. so sorry
Last edited by qepasa on Friday, 5th July 2019, 06:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 15:41

Re: no random stat gain pls.

The random stats gained depend on race and are a *racial bonus* on top of your *chosen* stat gains that you get every 3 levels. The random bonus stats (both how frequently and which stats are possible results) are fixed depending on your race.

Also, if you really like choosing your stats, play a demigod.
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 15:56

Re: no random stat gain pls.

As Siegurt mentioned, there are 2 independent forms of stat gain: firstly, you choose a stat every 3 levels and gain +1 in it, and secondly, there is a species-dependent rate and distribution of stat gain.

For some species, the distribution is not random. They are:

Ogre, Troll (always get STR every 3 levels)
Ghoul, Hill Orc (always get STR every 5 levels)
Halfling (always get DEX every 5 levels)
Deep Elf (always get INT every 4 levels)
Demigod (no stat gain other than the every-3-levels choice; this choice is +2 for demigods instead of +1)

If random stat gain really turns you off, you can try these species. However, be warned that as a roguelike, this game has a lot of randomness in places that are much more impactful than stat gain (monster generation, item generation, damage rolls).

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Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2019, 16:15

Re: no random stat gain pls.

So I'm not sure what seems to bother you.

1. Is it that it's flavored as stat gain?

It could always be reflavored as a descriptor in the species screen, since that's what actually determines what random stat gains you might get (e.g. Trolls are strong brutes, and may gain strength as they level)

2. Is it that you didn't know about it?

It could always be made obvious in the mutations screen, "You may gain strength as you level."

3. Is it that you don't get to choose every aspect of your character?

Your middle little paragraph seems to suggest that. If so, I refer you to the many discussions on being able to choose your color as a draconian, or your mutations as a demonspawn. Basically, a certain amount of randomness is a good thing for differentiating games.

...........................................

I'm just confused. Why would strength be "totally useless" on your warrior, just because you already chose strength? More strength is far from useless.

As for why strength was chosen, as mentioned above, that's dependent on your species, and no different from gaining HP/MP/MR as you level. It's not because you did some exercises, or anything similarly flavor-based, it's because X species randomly gains a boost to Y stat(s) every Z levels.

If you are so horrifically turned off by the idea of a (not so) random occurrence, I'm afraid that this is not the game for you.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 03:57

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Can a game have a mode where you play without random but with manual stat gain? so you can actually choose what stat you can gain?


This game actually does have that mode! I get annoyed by them sometimes too, but not all races have random stat gains, here are the ones without them

Always Strength - Hill Orc, Ogre, Troll, Ghoul

Always Dexterity - Halfling

Always Intelligence - Deep Elf

Two of whatever choice you make every 3rd level - Demigod

Not that stats have a huge impact, but i totally understand wanting to avoid that frustrating feeling of getting intelligence on a berserker

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 20:06

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Thinking about it, I have to agree with the OP.

First, races with fixed stat gain (HO, Og, Tr, Gh, Ha, and DE) are arguments against random stat gain, as these races work fine without it.

Second, the argument that a human manually pumping int will always make a perfectly acceptable wizard regardless of random stats is another argument against it, as there's no reason to permanently modify a character with something that's effect is too small to notice (and given the random stat increases form a normal distribution, it almost always is). Draconian and Demonspawn are fun because you get the reveal of a big game changing mutation. Playing a race with random stats is "I hope it turns out all right but I probably won't notice anyway".

It's worth noting that Crawl used to have random starting stats and it was removed. Moving random stat races to fixed stats would probably be a slight improvement in a similar way.

To do the math, does it make a difference if all formicids get +3/+3 given that almost 80% are going to get +2/+4, +3/+3, or +4/+2 anyway?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2019, 20:34

Re: no random stat gain pls.

cliffracer wrote:Thinking about it, I have to agree with the OP.

First, races with fixed stat gain (HO, Og, Tr, Gh, Ha, and DE) are arguments against random stat gain, as these races work fine without it.

Second, the argument that a human manually pumping int will always make a perfectly acceptable wizard regardless of random stats is another argument against it, as there's no reason to permanently modify a character with something that's effect is too small to notice (and given the random stat increases form a normal distribution, it almost always is). Draconian and Demonspawn are fun because you get the reveal of a big game changing mutation. Playing a race with random stats is "I hope it turns out all right but I probably won't notice anyway".

It's worth noting that Crawl used to have random starting stats and it was removed. Moving random stat races to fixed stats would probably be a slight improvement in a similar way.

To do the math, does it make a difference if all formicids get +3/+3 given that almost 80% are going to get +2/+4, +3/+3, or +4/+2 anyway?

The OP wasn't complaining about the actual *randomness* of the stat gain, but rather about *uncontrolled* stat gain. The fact that it was uncontrolled made it *look* random to the OP, as he didn't understand the source.

It's really irrelevant to the OP whether the stat gain per race is fixed or random, whether the stat gained is random or not isn't especially material to the discussion (Although it would be perfectly reasonable to start another thread on the merits/detraction of one vs the other)
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Friday, 5th July 2019, 06:26

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Thanks for reply!

Example:
You choose to play a hybrid especially new hybrid like Octopode(Op) or Formicid(Fo). These races can be a good casters, some says they are best late game.
So you start:
level 3. you can choose ... you choose INT hoping to be a next Merlin.
level 4-5 random stat gain STR(Fo, Op) or INT(Fo, Op) or Agi (Op) ... and game runs a RNG and gives you crap useless STR.
Why did game gave me STR as i was only spamming magic dart? I didn't do any exercises!
That's the point, this mechanic is basic and old i guess.
It can be changed to make game more fun and difficult.
Here is how:

IDEA no.1

So my idea was:
Start a game
If i skill spell skills i will get INT
If i skill warrior skills i will get STR
If i skill stealth or ranged i will get AGI
(What about Fo? As it is now Fo does not get AGI as random)

Game can calculate how much of % of EXP did i allocated to Magics, and how much i did to STR or AGI related skills.
effect:
I wonder around dungeon and i find Quarterstaff +6 venom. I wield it and i set skills staves and fighting to +10 and i get some levels by doing that, and some staves, fighting skill increase as well.
At that point when moment of random stat gain come game will calculate % chance according to exp allocated in skills total lets say from level 1-12(Fo) or 1-15(Op)
... or game will only count EXP allocated since last stat gain: level 8-12(Fo) level 10-15(Op)

IDEA no. 2

Game count only my kills, moments i gained EXP.
If i kill someone with spell - it gives me %INT
If i kill someone with Quarterstaff+6 i get %STR
If i stealthy stabbed someone or used ranged i get %AGI
There may be variations: If i used Spectral Weapon spell (good spell for STR/INT hybrids), and i hit monsters with it, if I get last hit i get %STR if Spectral gets last hit i get %INT.
If you cast Mephitic Cloud(good for AGI hybrids) and confused sheeps gets bounced to each other and dies it goes for %AGI, but if sheep died because of poison damage it goes to %INT.
This will have strange effect on players, they may lower HP of monsters with Quarterstaff+6 and then finish it with blast of magic or vice versa.
Probably some spells would be avoided because of that and players would have to be far more focused then before if they want to be a capable 15 rune runners late game.
Probably novice players will just play as always, but experienced players would have to play handicapped a little so they can really prove they are so good to be a pure caster user #INT and became true Zigg runner.

IDEA no.3
IDEA no.1 + IDEA no.2 :)
Mix of these two above.


So here was my explanation why and how.
I guess this change is so big, I would love to see how it can change the way players play.
No more elves, centaurs running with swords tabbing.
No more Minotaurs spamming Mephitic Cloud ... or you can do it, but you risking that you will get %INT as Minotaur.

So what you think?

Ps.
IDEA no. 4
Scroll of acquirement can reroll random stat gain. (cheap alternative)
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Zot Zealot

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Post Friday, 5th July 2019, 06:58

Re: no random stat gain pls.

I would prefer to remove user controlled stats. They serve to make species play more like each other.

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Aean, duvessa, Implojin

Swamp Slogger

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Post Friday, 5th July 2019, 13:47

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa, we used to have a system like that for skill training (manual skill training did not exist, all exp was allocated based on actions). It was removed because it added incentive for weird player behavior (called "victory dancing") to try and direct exp to the desired place. See: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=victory+dance

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 5th July 2019, 18:14

Re: no random stat gain pls.

See also, for example, scrolls of acquirement, often not-so-jokingly referred to as "scrolls of disappointment." There's a reason that the scrolls allow you some specificity, but not absolute choice.

After all, it would be stupid if you could, say, use them as a mummy and get unlucky enough to get food or potions, or if you could use them on an felid character and accidentally end up with a weapon, or get the Lightning Scales as a spriggan.

On the other hand, it would be similarly stupid if you had complete control of them:

"I don't just want to acquire something, I want to acquire a weapon. And I don't just want it to be a weapon, I want it to be a mace or flail. And I don't just want it to be a mace or flail, I want it to be a two-handed mace or flail. And I don't just want it to be a two-handed mace or flail, I want it to be a great mace. And I don't just want it to be a great mace, I want it to be an artefact great mace. And I don't just want it to be an artefact great mace, I want it to be an unrandart great mace. And I don't just want it to be an unrandart great mace, I want it to be Firestarter."

Let alone the sort of thing you could get with acquiring spellbooks, and trying to nitpick every spell you want in your book.

It's good to have some ability to direct things - even Xom can be manipulated to a degree, if you know the sorts of things that amuse him - but there's a line between "Random things won't screw me for no reason" and "I get only the things I want, to the degree I want."

Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 6th July 2019, 08:56

Re: no random stat gain pls.

I got some time today! yay! so i can clarify and specify what my idea is and how.

Races change could affect:
Barachi +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Centaur +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX
Deep Dwarf +1 random for /4 levels STR INT
Demonspawn +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Draconian +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Felid +1 random for /5 levels DEX INT
Formicid +1 random for /4 levels STR INT
Gargoyle +1 random for /4 levels STR INT
Gnoll +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Human +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Kobold +1 random for /5 levels STR DEX INT
Merfolk +1 random for /5 levels STR DEX INT
Minotaur +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX
Mummy +1 random for /5 levels STR DEX INT
Naga +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Octopode +1 random for /5 levels STR DEX INT
Spriggan +1 random for /5 levels DEX INT
Tengu +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX INT
Vampire +1 random for /5 levels DEX INT
Vine Stalker +1 random for /4 levels STR DEX

So only these races could be affected. Only for these random stats that may be replaced be a % chance that is dominated by IDEA no.1 or IDEA no.2 i mentioned four post above.


About Scroll of acquirement
Use it, and as always it shows you possible outcomes, but additionally it will have a option "Reroll random gained stat".
Once player chose "Reroll random gained stat" It will show all gained random stats, and let player decide which one he wants to reroll.

So for example, You play a Formicid till level 14, and lets say during leveling 4, 8, 12 levels and gaining lets say +1STR +1INT +1INT as random.
At level 14 you use Scroll and choose "Reroll random gained stat", game will display:
A. +1STR
B. +1INT
C. +1INT
then player click one of these, and it rerolls again.
So player types "A" and game says: "RNG God shows no mercy and ignore you!" means you still got STR
Or game says: "RNG God shows you its interest and teach you intelect draining your Strength!" means you swap STR for INT. (-1STR +1INT)

This small minor tweak is still of negligible importance and still scroll fits into "Scroll of disappointment" description. Probably early game or even 15 rune game without ZIG will not use scrolls that way.
But... once someone has all wonders inventory very late game, it shines and player will store/use for such purpose. Thus eliminating "no control/pure random" behavior of this mechanic.
And remember, we talking about only 5-6 stat points. But not skills! and not other stats!


What do you think?
about IDEA no.1
about IDEA no.2
about Scroll tweak?

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 6th July 2019, 15:53

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Idea 1 is purely flavor-based: "I did exercises, so I get strength." Differentiating games - even a little - is better than changing things purely for the sake of flavor.

Idea 2 is victory dancing 2.0: "I need to kite every bit of popcorn so I can kill it with a spell, so I don't get strength." Re-introducing a mechanic that encourages tedium is not a good thing.

Scroll tweak is unnecessary complication: If anything, it'd be simpler and more meaningful to re-introduce things like the "potion of gain strength," and those were removed for a reason. Not to mention that it seems unnecessary to introduce an additional mechanic to give endgame players the chance to - possibly - shift one point from one stat to another.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 05:21

Re: no random stat gain pls.

"Scroll tweak is unnecessary complication: If anything, it'd be simpler and more meaningful to re-introduce things like the "potion of gain strength," and those were removed for a reason"

So what is that secret reason?
i didnt talk about potion of gain strength. i was referring to reroll using scroll

So far is left is slot machine. u get what RNG gives no matter it does not makes sense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_machine
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Zot Zealot

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 05:56

Re: no random stat gain pls.

I think you need to address the "victory dancing" complaint. Both ideas require the player to play differently to normal so they get the "right" stat on level up.

For example, if I want to get int on level up, I should not kill any monster with melee, even if it's easier/better. Many mages kill monsters with melee and train melee skills but want 100% int on level up. How do your ideas allow this to work properly?

Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 07:15

Re: no random stat gain pls.

well it is a point i cannot argue with as you are right.
These 5/6 stat points at that moment would get "no int" or at least some less chance of int if you do melee.

But that's the point i made this idea.
Let player decide not RNG.
If you melee 50% and magic 50% still you get to point where it equals to what is happening right now.
I already had written that if you leave careful magic dart last hit, and do melee at some part of game cause you found +6 weapon and wear ring mail +4, then you get easy early game, but you risk random stat, and yo migth get +1 or +2 STR.
But for those who dont care about "it seems unnecessary to introduce an additional mechanic to give endgame players the chance to - possibly - shift one point from one stat to another" and will just TAB on.. when it realy seems to them unnecessary they just want to finish game and go on next. so +1/2 to them is minor.

There are other games i played and i saw that RNG is tried to be ruled out as much as possible. That's why i had written it up.

Other thing:
think of a mage swinging weapon with ring mail for sure he would be stronger. at least if i go to gym i do get bigger muscles ... at random ;)

Also i like victory dance.
Its the point of that game, you are in full control of what you do. in reality if you enter a room in abandoned factory somewhere and lets say you happen to find a very very bad human and a wolf-his dog. and they attack you. what would you do? You would run and try to corner around somewhere. like stairs, run around some tables chairs. you think about survive. It is You who entered taht factory labeled "do not enter it looks suspicious", "but well i think i can do it" <-- this thinking kills most players. so they have to pay for it sometimes with victory dance.
Well here it is the same. victory dance is in every potent game except slot machines.
you either victory dance 2.0 or ... drink a potion of might or other gumibear and "me smash you!"

narrowing RNG is what makes games ... yes more complicated like AEON said, but it makes game more well ... complicated then slot machine.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 20:56

Re: no random stat gain pls.

After having followed bel's post through to the philosophy of Nethack4 vs that of Crawl, I have to wonder if you perhaps migrated here from there.

The former is very much in favor of being able to customize and control every aspect of your character, given time; Crawl is in favor of character customizability, to a point, but also places a premium on adapting to what the dungeon gives you. Sometimes you don't get the altar you want, and are left with the choice of going godless for longer, or picking a different one; sometimes you don't find that spell, or get that weapon, and have to find a way to win even though you didn't get the perfect combination of things for your character.

More than that, Nethack4 seems to be heavily focused on flavor affecting reality - the idea that if it seems like it should work that way in real life, it should work that way in the game. Which seems to be where you're going with your post - the idea that if you swing a weapon more, you should get bigger muscles, rather than the idea that, as a [species], you may get X or Y attribute. If anything, the "you practiced it, so you get more of it," notion seems out of whack with the way Crawl gifts things like MP, MR, and HP on leveling - after all, no matter how many rats you club to death, you wouldn't "realistically" become more resistant to magic.

What you're suggesting seems like it's just on the other side of the Crawl/Nethack4 barrier: Customizability and flavor because you prefer certainty over a game where you may have to adapt to developments that don't work out the way you planned.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 21:52

Re: no random stat gain pls.

There doesn't seem to be a flavor argument for choosing all stat gains, as if anything species-based stat gains increase flavor. Crawl leans heavily on the idea that in the long term species has the strongest effect on gameplay. A DEFi picking strength every 3 levels (the strongest+dumbest deep elf) will still end up with 22 strength and 18 intelligence, and a TrWz picking intelligence every 3 levels (the weakest+smartest troll) will still end up with 23 strength and 23 intelligence. They're both playable characters but the mechanics make you feel the flavor of the race you're playing.

I don't see an argument for the idea that species stat-ups need to be randomized, which seems like a relic from the days of nethack. It's simultaneously too small to matter and provoke a reaction (usually +-1-2 points) and the only truly permanent random change applied to the player character (excluding Dg/DS mutations). Is there any reason humans shouldn't just gain +2/+2/+2?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 22:13

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Species stat gain is randomized so that species can gain more than one stat while still only gaining 1 stat point at a time. Getting +1 of a stat at levels 4, 8, and 12 is more granular than getting +1 to all three stats at level 8.

If you removed species stat gain altogether, I suspect very few players would even notice.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 9th July 2019, 23:02

Re: no random stat gain pls.

By +2/+2/+2 I meant +2 str, +2 int, +2 dex by level 27, not changing the interval. The level-to-level implementation doesn't matter as much, but I see two obvious ways of doing it.

1. Follow a set pattern, like str>int>dex, for something like
Human
04: +1 str
08: +1 int
12: +1 dex
16: +1 str
20: +1 int
24: +1 dex

Formicid
04: +1 str
08: +1 int
12: +1 str
16: +1 int
20: +1 str
24: +1 int

2. Use a small or large "hat" for picking stat increases
Human (small hat)
04: roll {str, int, dex} -> dex
08: roll {str, int} -> int
12: roll {str} -> str
16: roll {str, int, dex} -> int
20: roll from {str, dex} -> str
24: roll {dex} -> dex

Human (large hat)
04: roll {str,str,int,int,dex,dex} -> str
08: roll {str,int,int,dex,dex} -> dex
12: roll {str,int,int,dex} -> int
16: roll {str,int,dex} -> int
20: roll {str,dex} -> str
24: roll {dex} -> dex

Of the two I think I prefer the first, because it's consistent and easy to explain instead of mixing a random micro with a deterministic macro.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2019, 01:39

Re: no random stat gain pls.

In 1., human is now biased towards strength because it gets it first. The current system doesn't have this problem.
In 2., now players can figure out which stat(s) they'll get next by looking at which stats they've already gotten, which is extra work. The current system doesn't have this problem.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2019, 15:39

Re: no random stat gain pls.

duvessa wrote:In 1., human is now biased towards strength because it gets it first. The current system doesn't have this problem.
In 2., now players can figure out which stat(s) they'll get next by looking at which stats they've already gotten, which is extra work. The current system doesn't have this problem.


1. If we consider a character spending equal time at every level, a fixed str>int>dex order results in the player having a statistically existent but practically irrelevant 8/27ths of a point extra strength (and 8/27ths of a point less dex) over the course of the game.
2. I don't see how this results in new information that the player needs to react to. The player knows they'll get +1 to every stat by level 12 and again by level 24, which is much simpler for a hypothetical optimal player (or just an average player) to deal with than a collapsing cloud of potential stat distributions which in the vast majority of cases doesn't matter and just breaks down as close to +2/+2/+2 anyway.

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2019, 15:52

Re: no random stat gain pls.

1. I find the proposal where you get stats in a random up to a fixed total more elegant than the proposal where you get stats in a fixed order. Demonspawn mutations work in a similar way, and they're great.
2. There is a difference in that sometimes you know you want 11 strength and the rest int. With any new stat system players will have to learn how to deal with this. With the proposals made, people in this situation will have to track their stats in more detail (if they care). In the current system you just look at your stats and XL.
3. Looking at your current stats and knowing "I'm going to get 4 extra random stats" is very easy to deal with - because you don't have to deal with it. You're just getting some free stats when you level up. Granted, this goes for all methods of increasing stats.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2019, 19:43

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Aean
... i played Wyvern a long forgotten super fun game with tragic history that ended up in a court. It was multiplayer and kinda similar, but there were much more interactions between players, but not like tibia. but yea... there are games similar to DCSS - lots of them, and so little time to play them all :]

anyway....
gods or items or spells don't compare to a PERMANENT stat gain be it a no-use/wasted STR for a wizard.
But you can compare gods or spells or items, if someone long time ago had an idea like: lets make every altar only 50% chance of appear , hehe let them suffer.
And imagine, you take DE play elemental and you cannot get any god for a mage. and u are XL 11 and u think... well i just lost 1 hour of gameplay.

There really would fit a scroll to reroll with 33% or 50% chance a random stat. it would fit only at late game stage. ... as i already written...

u can get every spell in game,
u can get every god in game,
u can get every item in game,
But you cannot get these random stats

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 04:07

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa wrote:
gods or items or spells don't compare to a PERMANENT stat gain be it a no-use/wasted STR for a wizard.

I think this is one of the points you're missing, though: There's no such thing as a useless stat, just a stat that you don't use. If you got high strength as a spellcaster, for example, you'd be smart to alter your plan, and start wearing heavier armor (since strength helps offset armor penalties) or making a hybrid character, rather than focusing on your original plan of being a straight blaster-caster. Similarly, if you got high intelligence as a melee brute, you can branch out and start using magic to supplement your combat capabilities. And often, doing some branching out is wise anyway! A spellcaster with something heavier than a robe, or a weapon to finish enemies when they're out of MP is more likely to survive; a melee brute benefits immensely from being able to, say, silence a powerful spellcaster, or regen their health, or deflect ranged attacks while they close the distance.

qepasa wrote:
And imagine, you take DE play elemental and you cannot get any god for a mage. and u are XL 11 and u think... well i just lost 1 hour of gameplay.

But...there are tons of gods that work for mages. Seriously. You don't need to take Sif or Veh to make a viable mage. You didn't lose an hour of gameplay, you got a run that didn't play out quite the way you planned. You may have started wanting to make a blaster-caster of Vehumet, but think of all the uses of other gods!

Ash, to enhance your abilities and let you be better-prepared for situations! Beogh, if you're an orc, to give you an army of meat shields! Chei to let you be an awesome caster AND an awesome warrior! Dith, to keep enemies from hitting you, let you reposition yourself, escape, and double your spells! Ely, for removing status maluses and boosting your MP for fights, and healing yourself, and pacifying in dangerous situations! Fedhas, for allies and blockers! Gozag, to keep your enemies off you with gold-distraction and buff you with potions and equip you with the perfect gear and spellbooks!

I'm literally going alphabetically through the list of gods. If you're giving up just because you can't get the "mage gods," you're suffering from a lack of imagination.
qepasa wrote:u can get every spell in game,
u can get every god in game,
u can get every item in game,
But you cannot get these random stats

You can only get every spell in the game if you explore extended/abyss long enough, or get an insanely high number of spellbook-related drops, or use Sif; most players do not get every spell.

You can only get every god in the game if you explore far enough, and even then, you can't get every god in the game if you're not an orc, or if you're an "evil" race.

You literally cannot get every item in the game in most games - for example, Tiamat often doesn't spawn - and even in the ones you can get every item, you can usually only get everything by endless farming of extended/abyss until a certain thing spawns.

Crawl is about adaptation. You may not get the god, the gear, the spells, the stats, the mutations that you want. You may not get the branches, or vaults, or portals, or uniques that you want. But you have to learn how to have fun - and be effective - with what the game gives you...or, as you have suggested, give up every time things don't work out quite the way you wanted. Or just play Wizmode, if you want to be sure that the game plays out exactly as you'd like.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 06:11

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Random stat gains are bad because they decrease variety/replayability by making it harder to play races in non-standard way like Mi going for Fire Storm, DE going for CPA.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 10:08

Re: no random stat gain pls.

@VeryAngryFelid
Random stats are so cool and important!

@ cliffracer
i like your idea. seems ok a lot.

@ Aean
"A spellcaster with something heavier than a robe, or a weapon to finish enemies when they're out of MP is more likely to survive"
Early bonus! Now STR fits! A reason for it!
You are talking about rats and goblins right?

Wide Broading in DCSS will make you get killed later on or at least make you course more. and gameplay will get clumsy and slow. Going for more then only few early points in weapon and spending rest on spell skills is key to smooth game as a mage.
I mean, what good is with STR when you mastered Chain lighting or Shatter or Tornado and you are about to do Tomb2 later on?
SPECIALIZATION is essential and STR goes to garbage.
But yay i even saw Gandalf the White smashing goblin head with quarterstaff!

trust me on this one:

" %%%%% ---- ##### . . . MAGE DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM STR! . . . ##### ---- %%%%% "
NEVER EVER PERIOD. ITS JUST A LOST STAT!
"but now you can walkin smashin in chain mail blablalba"
Its not happening. You will smash goblin, but you will die to a vampire.
Mage survive in a robe or troll armour, but will die in chain mail. Hell even Dragon hides don't benefit for a mage. He will not cast OZO armour (+AC). He will miscast shit. He will generate noise.
When i was ZIGGing a lot i did compared 3 armours: TROLL, moon troll, robe of vines, and crystal orangePA - Former so much better then latter. Archmage is good, but not so easy as Troll's Regen and low EC.
anyway
There is no such thing as adaptability for a mage with STR. its lost stat.
And I don't want to hear stuff like: "STR is good because it protects you against mummy levels STR drain!"

qepasa <-- CRINGE RAGE !!! KID IS CRYING!!
Last edited by qepasa on Thursday, 11th July 2019, 11:19, edited 3 times in total.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 10:26

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa wrote:@VeryAngryFelid
Random stats are so cool and important!


Probably you didn't get what I was trying to say. Bonus random stats should be replaced with bonus stats explicitly chosen by player like is done for Dg.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 11:21

Re: no random stat gain pls.

I'm kind of a fan of what is done now, taking it on a race by race basis, with some set in stone, some chosen and some random.

However, i think that maybe too many races are random, and random stat gain could be adjusted with a change to some races.

For example i think full random perfectly fits demon spawn. But letting humans pick could an interesting way to buff a mostly boring race. Also we let octopodes always get int now, i mean come on seriously. Changes like that i'd like.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 12:07

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Aean wrote:If you're giving up just because you can't get the "mage gods," you're suffering from a lack of imagination.

Crawl is about adaptation. You may not get the god, the gear, the spells, the stats, the mutations that you want. You may not get the branches, or vaults, or portals, or uniques that you want. But you have to learn how to have fun - and be effective - with what the game gives you...


Well said.
There is always something new to learn.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 17:46

Re: no random stat gain pls.

guys
i know what adaptation in this game is but i talk about something else.
i am not talking about gods gear spells stats mutations, but about pointless random STR gain for a mage. and no benefits of some other random gains.
believe no matter how much you squeeze your ass for some classes some STATS do not fit, once some level of like 8-10 stat point in STR is all mage needs. and other races and classes have some similar stuff that just do not fit above some point and are useless.
and this above is example. so far only clifracer said some solution.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 20:19

Re: no random stat gain pls.

duvessa wrote:If you removed species stat gain altogether, I suspect very few players would even notice.

Honestly I like this solution the best. As duvessa implied, the rate of stat gain is so slow that it's basically unnoticeable.

I don't think species stat gain does anything good for the game. The difference in starting stats already uses stats as a way to create differences between species; the only thing species stat gain really does is lock away some of those stats until later in the game, which makes late game easier, and late game doesn't need to be easier. You could alternatively view it as making early game harder, compared to the hypothetical approach of providing some of those later stats at starting (in deterministic quantities).

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2019, 21:40

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa wrote:Wide Broading in DCSS will make you get killed later on or at least make you course more.

If you're dumb about it, sure. If you spread your XP over several three different melee weapon skills instead of focusing on one, you're wasting XP. If you train something besides a melee weapon, that will enhance your character, you're being smart.

There's a reason that any experienced player will tell you the benefits of training, say, throwing or evocations on a melee character, or leveling fighting or dodging on a spellcaster.

qepasa wrote:
gameplay will get clumsy and slow. Going for more then only few early points in weapon and spending rest on spell skills is key to smooth game as a mage.

The problem is that you're thinking of "mage" as just one thing - the pure blaster-caster with level 9 spells. It doesn't get clumsy or slow unless you ignore one of your skillsets, instead of using them to complement each other.

qepasa wrote:
SPECIALIZATION is essential

Mm. Think about this: When any experienced player recommends a species to people who want to play mages, what do they suggest?

Draconians are a popular suggestion. So are gargoyles. The most specialized mages, Deep Elves, are...not quite a newbie-trap, but not so far from one. Because being able to cast level 9 spells earlier doesn't mean nearly as much when your mighty mage can be destroyed by a single bad turn, or be rendered helpless when there are too many enemies for you to blast.

Similarly, as I mentioned above, when experienced people play melee characters, they like to have options beyond melee. Because sometimes you have to deal with movement-controlling monsters (e.g. sirens, satyrs, vault wardens, etc.) or monsters that can hit from a distance (e.g. orb spiders, spellcasters, ranged attackers) or even just monsters that are faster than you, and can run you down before you can escape. In so many scenarios, it helps to be less specialized, and to be able to pull out tricks that will help you deal with the situation.

Pure specialization is generally a bad idea, just as blindly spreading your XP across redundant skills is a bad idea.

qepasa wrote:
i did compared 3 armours: TROLL, moon troll, robe of vines, and crystal orangePA - Former so much better then latter. Archmage is good, but not so easy as Troll's Regen and low EC.

Sure, the former can be great if you want to take it the fragile spellcaster of Vehumet route.

Or perhaps you think about the situation, and say "Huh. You know what, maybe I could try Chei, and that'd let me keep casting my level 9 spells even in OCPA! Then I'd be able to do massive damage and SURVIVE massive damage too!"

One may be better for your particular playstyle, but if you think the other is useless, you're not considering the options.
qepasa wrote:
There is no such thing as adaptability

This seems to be the crux of your argument, and this is where I vehemently disagree with you. You are focusing so heavily on how something may not be ideal for your planned playstyle that you are missing all the ways that you might turn a perceived disadvantage (or even just a perceived uselessness) in your favor.

To use an exaggerated example, if you find Wyrmbane on D2, do you say "Ugh, useless, I'm a fire elementalist?" I know I'd think "Wow, one of the most powerful weapons in the game! Maybe I should consider something besides being a pure blaster-caster!"

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Post Friday, 12th July 2019, 05:54

Re: no random stat gain pls.

you play merfolk wizard and you find wyrmbane on D2 you will then later on prey to your beloved RNG god to bless you with STR and you will buff manually STR as well and became warrior out from wizard? and you will get lots of success winning 15 rune or do some ZIGS? is this crux i am missing?

Can you show me how you do it smoothly no slow ass squeezing?

Or maybe can you show me how you can do opposite? make a Barachi berserk play till first random INT comes in and to make game easy to you lets say you find godly earth tome spellbook and chei altar so you can make "OCPA! Then I'd be able to do massive damage and SURVIVE massive damage too!" can you show me? i will watch you in wizard mode ok? i call you. we meet online you play i watch ok? barachi bers into chei level 9 spell caster


for me i would be glad for wyrmbane as it would skyrocket me, but still i would prefer INT and i would just be happy with easy time but later on i would leave wyrmbane behind and wield energy staff or maybe keep wyrmbane for occasional rat or goblin :).

STR gain for a wizard is stat lost!

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 12th July 2019, 10:54

Re: no random stat gain pls.

Since you're interested in seeing mages with strength, here's a FoFi who went on to learn Shatter under Chei, and later switched ->TSO->Zin : viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26227. He would have dearly loved OCPA, but unfortunately not all items generate every game ;)
If you want to see actual gameplay, I can recommend watching Ultraviolet on youtube. He almost always hybridises into melee + lightning spire. (When he can :lol:)

PS: wyrmbane is great because it deals massive damage with no strength investment required, as far as I know.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 12th July 2019, 12:50

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa wrote:you play merfolk wizard and you find wyrmbane on D2 you will then later on prey to your beloved RNG god to bless you with STR and you will buff manually STR as well and became warrior out from wizard? and you will get lots of success winning 15 rune or do some ZIGS? is this crux i am missing?

STR gain for a wizard is stat lost!


The crux of the issue here is easily expressed by your own words. Getting STR / AGI / INT from levels randomly is something you strictly see as "losing INT / STR / AGI" rather than "gaining STR / AGI / INT", and proposing a change based on that. None of the stats is useless or pointless, as you have repeatedly stated. Another thing to note is that no matter how much you try to force the idea of stat loss this way, 2-4 points of a stat are completely overshadowed by the same divine effects and items you keep dissing. The highest (if unlikely) stat bonus from randarts is a massive +10. In terms of STR, that lets you use armour that's 3 ER categories above the neutral point. In terms of AGI, it grants a +30 bonus to stealth and a corresponding boost to accuracy and EV. +10 for INT gives (depending on the base INT) another one or two # to all spells, and reduces hunger accordingly.

Again, this is a matter of perspective. @Aean said some really good things above about adaptation and versatility, which I mostly agree with - some of the examples were a bit extreme for my taste. Completely denying the use of random extra STR for say, a good mid-ER armour drop is no different than ignoring a buff / utility spellbook with random extra INT. Having additional ways to deal with whatever DCSS throws at your char can certainly make a difference, and ignoring that kind of potential because it doesn't fit your previously chosen idea is the exact opposite of a winning mindset. Also doesn't look fun to me, but again - personal preference.

You also stated in the first post how randomly gaining STR or AGI on a mage when delving into the dungeon makes no sense: that is also not true. From a logistical standpoint, you walk through a large amount of space lugging around a number of things in your pack constantly (STR). You dodge attacks from all sorts of creatures while doing your best to stay alive(AGI). You use your wits to plan ahead and ration out your fighting capacity (INT). Being imaginative has all sorts of perks, so long as you don't block that off while pushing your own narrative.
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Post Friday, 12th July 2019, 13:08

Re: no random stat gain pls.

What is so bad in having a new option like "choose_random_bonus_stats" with false being default? If you want to keep playing with random stats, you can without any changes. Those who want to manually put points will need to add that new option with "true" into their init.txt.

Now let me list a few reasons why having that option can be good:
1) there are players who like to have control and dislike randomness (no random stats, no shafts, no paralysis etc.).
2) there are players who like to use unusual combos like Mi with Fire Storm or DE in CPA. Those unusual combos are more fun when you have control on stats. If you are a crazy player, you can intentionally put all "random" stats into Dex as Mi and then wear CPA and cast Fire Storm while worshiping Trog. If you are not that great/crazy, you can put some/all "random" stats into Int for easier Fire Storm with Vehumet as Mi.
3) Role-playing. I want to be a Mi who put everything in Int.
4) Somewhat related to previous point. Not all players and not in every game want to adapt. Some of us sometimes want to play specific character, sometimes we don't want to switch to Longbows just because we found Zephyr on D:3.
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bel

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Post Friday, 12th July 2019, 15:07

Re: no random stat gain pls.

rcfile options are meant to substitute user inputs and/or enhance user experience. They aren't meant to change the game mechanics. People with different rcfiles are still playing the same game.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 13th July 2019, 04:24

Re: no random stat gain pls.

str for a mage is wasted point
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 13th July 2019, 19:28

Re: no random stat gain pls.

The fact is random stats have such a small impact on the character, it hardly matters how they're allocated. The method of independently randomly incrementing stats with level ups according to some schedule has the advantage of high unpredictability per increment, but it creates very little variation from character to character, particularly as the game wears on.

It would be possible for random stat growth to produce more variation among characters, but it would require dependence among allocation events, perhaps via some randomly generated schedule chosen at character creation.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 14th July 2019, 13:34

Re: no random stat gain pls.

bel wrote:rcfile options are meant to substitute user inputs and/or enhance user experience. They aren't meant to change the game mechanics. People with different rcfiles are still playing the same game.


True. After introducing the new option every player can choose stats. But some players want to make game choose the stat for them and it is comfortably default. As you can see all players still play the same game, it's just a bit different from current one.
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Post Wednesday, 17th July 2019, 13:32

Re: no random stat gain pls.

qepasa wrote:str for a mage is wasted point

This isn't obviously true unless you find a robe of the Archmagi or something. I've played quite a few mages in medium or heavy armour, and str is very useful then.
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