Remove spell hunger


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 23rd June 2019, 17:33

Remove spell hunger

A few good reasons for spell hunger to not exist:

(a) It serves no purpose at all. Casting spells is already constrained by a mechanism specifically designed for this purpose: MP.
(b) It's completely useless at whatever purpose it is supposed to serve, because chunks exist.
(c) Spell hunger is incredibly obnoxious when playing as a blaster caster.

Good reasons for spell hunger to exist:
(a) There isn't one, unless you count a mindless carryover mechanism from nethack.

Of course, it would be good to remove food altogether, but that's not likely to happen any time soon; so I am asking for removal of an obviously bad and obnoxious mechanic.

For this message the author bel has received thanks: 3
duvessa, nago, VeryAngryFelid

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1000

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Sunday, 23rd June 2019, 17:55

Re: Remove spell hunger

Another reason to remove spell hunger: if the reason for food is to be a clock that requires you going forward then food consumption really should not depend on your build type, that is, casters or warriors should need the same amount of food.

While you may argue that melee also cost food or that casters receive less damage in general (resulting in less resting and less food), I think these are not good arguments. They just make the food consumption rate unnecessarily complicated so we cannot balance it as a clock. Also, if casters receive less damage than this is a balance problem and food is not good to get into this question.

For this message the author sanka has received thanks: 4
bel, duvessa, nago, VeryAngryFelid

Blades Runner

Posts: 562

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Sunday, 23rd June 2019, 19:46

Re: Remove spell hunger

It prevents low intelligence characters from multiple attempts to cast a higher level spell with a low success rate. It also works like an alternate (but different) form of mana for pure casters. It gives necromancy users more things to consider. It gives intelligence and spellcasting more reason to exist. Kiku deliver corpses...etc., etc., etc.

To be clear, I don't think that spell hunger is perfect, and maybe it needs some review (like many other game mechanics), but it is far too simplistic to just say "it does nothing" and remove it. If we just hack out enough mechanics, well, just play Powder on your phone or something.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 848

Joined: Thursday, 16th August 2018, 21:19

Post Sunday, 23rd June 2019, 20:48

Re: Remove spell hunger

I agree, spellhunger does lots of things. It makes spamming high-level spells difficult, forces mages to take risks to get food if they want to keep using their most powerful spells, makes Int more important, and ruines a mage^Zin.
It's one of the main reasons to use a Staff of Energy, which exasperates the effect of RNG on characters who have food problems.
I really noticed how much spell hunger had handicapps my usual mages when I played a mummy^Vehm - the effect of ignoring spell hunger was enormous.
Most of the effects mentioned above I find it annoying though.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4426

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Monday, 24th June 2019, 06:25

Re: Remove spell hunger

svendre wrote:It prevents low intelligence characters from multiple attempts to cast a higher level spell with a low success rate. It also works like an alternate (but different) form of mana for pure casters. It gives necromancy users more things to consider. It gives intelligence and spellcasting more reason to exist. Kiku deliver corpses...etc., etc., etc.


There are better solutions than spell hunger here.
1) Remove/reform those buffs (DMsl I guess). I doubt someone is casting low success spells in a fight. It is useless in easy fights and suicide in dangerous ones.
2) Spell hunger still does not help. You can cast DMsl after killing some monsters, a single corpse is enough for 5+ attempts.

To be clear, I don't think that spell hunger is perfect, and maybe it needs some review (like many other game mechanics), but it is far too simplistic to just say "it does nothing" and remove it. If we just hack out enough mechanics, well, just play Powder on your phone or something.


It does nothing except annoys players who want to play casters.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

For this message the author VeryAngryFelid has received thanks: 2
duvessa, nago

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 41

Joined: Wednesday, 14th March 2018, 00:31

Post Monday, 24th June 2019, 12:22

Re: Remove spell hunger

DMsl isn't cast enough for spell hunger to be a meaningful effect, especially when compared to conjurations which are cast multiple times per encounter. I'd say the only reason for spell hunger to exist right now is that it gives a reason to cast lower level spells (e.g. throw flame if you can cast fireball, fireball if you can cast firestorm). On top of that a randomly spawned staff of energy will entirely negate spell hunger with no character investment, so spell hunger can't even work consistently towards the aims in this thread.

As it stands spell hunger mostly exists as a newbie trap.

For this message the author cliffracer has received thanks:
duvessa

bel

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Monday, 24th June 2019, 15:52

Re: Remove spell hunger

It is my view that spell hunger is of no (real) consequence except annoyance. The effect is mostly psychological (and it's not a good psychological effect either). I have played a ton of blaster casters over the years, and I can recall very few situations where I had to choose a different spell to conserve food.

People might be interested in this calculation I did a couple of years ago in Dungeon Crawling Advice, where I went through real-world morgues of a player who believed that spell hunger mattered, and tried to show that it doesn't.

For this message the author bel has received thanks:
duvessa

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 853

Joined: Thursday, 29th August 2013, 18:39

Post Monday, 24th June 2019, 18:58

Re: Remove spell hunger

It's fine to have a game-timer forcing you to go forward. It's also fine to have a resource that's spent to cast spells, that you can choose to consume extra of to have more of a buffer at key moments. It's not really very good for those to be the same resource. Separate "food-as-clock" and "food-as-MP" into two resources, hunger and thirst, and then we can talk about them independently like everyone tries to do. If they stay the same, you're forever compromising one goal for the other.

For this message the author johlstei has received thanks:
Implojin

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.