Faith and Vehumet


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1886

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 09:58

Faith and Vehumet

I always wonder if it's a good idea... I usually like to have one early to get the spell boosts, but I feel like the last piety levels are useless besides the gifts.

Moreover, dropping faith for something else will reduce your piety, delyaing the 3 last spells (but anyway you can't use them early) and get you access to some other spells before.

I feel like the best Faith conduct with Vehumet is using it asap if you get one early, then drop it whit 5* or 6* before ultimate gifts and use any other amulet...

Any thought about this ?
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 14:51

Re: Faith and Vehumet

I think this situation is pretty clear. If you are worshipping Vehumet, then it is one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile. The reason is that it will help you achieve maximum piety sooner, thus granting you the final gift sooner. Since Vehumet doesn't do much for you at high piety past the final gift, removing the faith amulet after you've already gotten the gift isn't much of a penalty at all, and then you can switch to a more useful amulet. In the case of other gods where the piety is more usable, you're stuck with a drop in piety for removing it or stuck with the amulet after you're already able to use the highest levels of god abilities.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 14:59

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:I think this situation is pretty clear. If you are worshipping Vehumet, then it is one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile. The reason is that it will help you achieve maximum piety sooner, thus granting you the final gift sooner. Since Vehumet doesn't do much for you at high piety past the final gift, removing the faith amulet after you've already gotten the gift isn't much of a penalty at all, and then you can switch to a more useful amulet. In the case of other gods where the piety is more usable, you're stuck with a drop in piety for removing it or stuck with the amulet after you're already able to use the highest levels of god abilities.


What's so good about getting final gift earlier?
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 15:48

Re: Faith and Vehumet

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:I think this situation is pretty clear. If you are worshipping Vehumet, then it is one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile. The reason is that it will help you achieve maximum piety sooner, thus granting you the final gift sooner. Since Vehumet doesn't do much for you at high piety past the final gift, removing the faith amulet after you've already gotten the gift isn't much of a penalty at all, and then you can switch to a more useful amulet. In the case of other gods where the piety is more usable, you're stuck with a drop in piety for removing it or stuck with the amulet after you're already able to use the highest levels of god abilities.


What's so good about getting final gift earlier?


With Vehumet, it tells you what spells you are going to get offered, which helps your planning and skill training. You can also train those spells you want, and drop Vehumet if you have other ideas how to progress. Last, but not least, you can potentially use those high level conjurations to devastating effect. Even if it is early on and you can't make consistent use of those high level spells, there are several places where it can be a huge help to use your brilliance potions (and possibly temporarily wearing lighter armour) and get a big jump in power and loot (such as firestorming the elf3 vault).

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 15:54

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:With Vehumet, it tells you what spells you are going to get offered, which helps your planning and skill training. You can also train those spells you want, and drop Vehumet if you have other ideas how to progress. Last, but not least, you can potentially use those high level conjurations to devastating effect. Even if it is early on and you can't make consistent use of those high level spells, there are several places where it can be a huge help to use your brilliance potions (and possibly temporarily wearing lighter armour) and get a big jump in power and loot (such as firestorming the elf3 vault).


Sorry, that does not answer my question. Typically I reach max piety long before Elf 3 even without faith:
  Code:
36102 | Swamp:1  | Reached ****** piety under Vehumet
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 15:56

Re: Faith and Vehumet

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:With Vehumet, it tells you what spells you are going to get offered, which helps your planning and skill training. You can also train those spells you want, and drop Vehumet if you have other ideas how to progress. Last, but not least, you can potentially use those high level conjurations to devastating effect. Even if it is early on and you can't make consistent use of those high level spells, there are several places where it can be a huge help to use your brilliance potions (and possibly temporarily wearing lighter armour) and get a big jump in power and loot (such as firestorming the elf3 vault).


Sorry, that does not answer my question. Typically I reach max piety long before Elf 3 even without faith:
  Code:
36102 | Swamp:1  | Reached ****** piety under Vehumet


OK, but the answer wasn't necessarily exclusively for you only. Maybe some people clear elf3 sooner than you. You also ignored every other reason I presented except that.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6165

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 14th February 2019, 17:26

Re: Faith and Vehumet

While it's not a particularly good use of your *amulet* slot, doing as the OP suggests and holding on to faith until you hit some spell you want to hold on to and memorize *later* is a way to manipulate Vehumet's gifts to your advantage (Giving you a little extra time to get enough spell slots for a particular spell you want, I don't find myself with that as a problem that needs solving often, but maybe if you are short of amnesia scrolls or something?) If I had no worthwhile amulet to use, I might use faith for this purpose, but it's pretty rare that I have nothing better to do with my amulet slot.

I don't personally find Veh's passive bonuses compelling enough to sacrifice my amulet slot to get them slightly earlier than I already do (although usually I personally typically take Veh on fragile caster builds, and so I'm looking for my equipment to make me safer, I don't love Veh very much.) so I would not use faith to get the passives earlier, unless I literally had no other amulet to use.

I'm not convinced that using faith specifically to get your *final* gifts earlier is a good plan, rushing for specific level 9 spells is rarely a good strategy, and doing so at the expense of intermediate power is probably suboptimal. Getting your final gifts early *shouldn't* actually inform your training, because you should be training for intermediate spells all along the way, so it's rather your training that should let you pick what level 9 spells you bother to memorize (and level 9 spells aren't really required by any stretch), rather than the other way around.

Being able to do elf slightly earlier is not much of a draw, elf is pretty frequently dangerous, and rarely rewarding, going in there with some sort of "I can barely cast firestorm in an overextended way" build doesn't sound healthy to me. Plus memorizing a level 9 spell before your training really supports it is just generally a waste of spell slots, if you are using half your spell slots on a level 9 spell that you can only cast with brilliance, most of the time, you're just missing all that additional possible spell usage.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 05:48

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:With Vehumet, it tells you what spells you are going to get offered, which helps your planning and skill training. You can also train those spells you want, and drop Vehumet if you have other ideas how to progress. Last, but not least, you can potentially use those high level conjurations to devastating effect. Even if it is early on and you can't make consistent use of those high level spells, there are several places where it can be a huge help to use your brilliance potions (and possibly temporarily wearing lighter armour) and get a big jump in power and loot (such as firestorming the elf3 vault).


Sorry, that does not answer my question. Typically I reach max piety long before Elf 3 even without faith:
  Code:
36102 | Swamp:1  | Reached ****** piety under Vehumet


OK, but the answer wasn't necessarily exclusively for you only. Maybe some people clear elf3 sooner than you. You also ignored every other reason I presented except that.
Ok. I ignored other arguments because typically I get final gifts while improving level 6 spells so it does not help if I see final gifts earlier as I would still work on level 6 spells anyway. Abandoning Vehumet before Elf 3 is also very weird as both mana on kills and wizardry become more useful later in the game and there are no better gods for caster as this point. It is kind of joining TSO in Temple and then abandoning it for Fedhas before extended :)
I could see this possible only for faded altar. GrFi randomly gets Vehumet, rushes to final gift hoping for Shatter and then abandons for Mahkleb or whatever.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 07:12

Re: Faith and Vehumet

To be more clear, I was addressing the situation posed by the OP: "using it asap if you get one early". If I found a faith amulet very early on, and I was worshipping Vehumet, I would probably use it, just to get it out of the way. You're getting closer to max piety more quickly *until* you find a better amulet. You wouldn't want to take the faith amulet off just before you hit max piety if you'd already nearly reached it when you find another amulet. I wouldn't avoid wearing it in hopes of finding another amulet first (I might do this if worshipping other gods by contrast). If I found some good amulet before faith, then yeah I'd use it.. and probably keep using it.

All that said, I don't particularly care for Vehumet all that much. I find it a fun god usually only if I am specifically playing a race with high magical aptitude (deep elf, tengu), and in which case, then the style is most interesting to blitz higher level spells. I probably do things a bit differently than most people with spells in that I have mostly abandoned mid-level spells around level 6. Instead, I use low level spells in heavy armour, and then potentially switch armour for other engineered encounters where I leapfrog experience at a rapid rate using higher level pure spell school spells like ignition or tornado and totally skip conjurations. It's not for everyone, but you certainly can jumpstart those kinds of characters if played carefully. Elf3 is a pretty enormous power jump in terms of xp and gear... I find that at least pretty difficult to argue with.

For this message the author svendre has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Dungeon Master

Posts: 118

Joined: Monday, 5th October 2015, 06:17

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 09:09

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile


When did this become common wisdom? I'm pretty sure "Faith is better for a lot of other gods than for Vehumet. It's not an amulet of "get to 6* ASAP", it's an amulet of "unlimited supply of all your overpowered invocations". I'd love to have it on Qazlal, for example, or Fedhas. Even with Okawaru's relatively cheap abilities it's fine, to make it more reasonable to use Finesse when a fight is at all dangerous.

For this message the author amalloy has received thanks: 2
nago, VeryAngryFelid

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 09:24

Re: Faith and Vehumet

amalloy wrote:
svendre wrote:one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile


When did this become common wisdom? I'm pretty sure "Faith is better for a lot of other gods than for Vehumet. It's not an amulet of "get to 6* ASAP", it's an amulet of "unlimited supply of all your overpowered invocations". I'd love to have it on Qazlal, for example, or Fedhas. Even with Okawaru's relatively cheap abilities it's fine, to make it more reasonable to use Finesse when a fight is at all dangerous.


I don't think it's a popular opinion, but I believe it in practice. I agree Faith is a lot better for many gods over Vehumet, that wasn't really my point. I was saying if I found it early enough I would use it with Vehumet (whereas I wouldn't use it with many other gods because I wouldn't want to take the hit on piety when I find another amulet and want to switch to it.) This is because with Vehumet, the loss of piety from removing faith isn't substantial.

So, then there is wondering why I don't care much about faith in general, and that is a more complicated matter. The short version of it is that I generally reserve mana for spells before invocations. I use invocations which pull a substantial amount of piety as a last resort, and that isn't so frequent, therefore there is often enough piety without the need to boost it. If a lot of the invocations that spend mana only spent piety, I would probably value the faith amulet a bit more. A melee only Qazlal character isn't a bad example of where I would find it more valuable, but even still, in that case because it feels like piety runs out so extremely quickly on Qazlal, I tend to only use those abilities when absolutely necessary rather than as a staple tactic requiring a steady flow of incoming piety.

The abilities which draw a bit less piety overall and don't truly need to be on all the time, like Oka's heroism or Zin's stat boosts don't seem to run my piety out quickly enough, so I use another amulet.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8643

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 09:32

Re: Faith and Vehumet

amalloy wrote:
svendre wrote:one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile


When did this become common wisdom?
It didn't, svendre is just insane.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 15:17

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:The short version of it is that I generally reserve mana for spells before invocations. I use invocations which pull a substantial amount of piety as a last resort, and that isn't so frequent, therefore there is often enough piety without the need to boost it. If a lot of the invocations that spend mana only spent piety, I would probably value the faith amulet a bit more.

That is really weird reasoning; invocations are very strong compared to most spells. Plus you can just wait and all your MP come back.

Like, I know I underuse invocations but it's not because they cost MP.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 15:52

Re: Faith and Vehumet

njvack wrote:
svendre wrote:The short version of it is that I generally reserve mana for spells before invocations. I use invocations which pull a substantial amount of piety as a last resort, and that isn't so frequent, therefore there is often enough piety without the need to boost it. If a lot of the invocations that spend mana only spent piety, I would probably value the faith amulet a bit more.

That is really weird reasoning; invocations are very strong compared to most spells. Plus you can just wait and all your MP come back.

Like, I know I underuse invocations but it's not because they cost MP.


Yes, invocations are very strong. It's the same thing as why you wouldn't firestorm a single weak monster just because you can, or quaff a might potion at the first sight of danger. I generally melee until it looks like it may not be adequate, then dip into spells, after spells are considered or if the invocation was better matched than any spell I consider them and/or consumables. It makes sense to me to conserve the most limited resources. Mana runs out from spells, but as you pointed out, you can usually simply recharge mana by resting after the fight, this makes it a less limited resource than piety and consumables. You may wind up with extra piety and/or consumables, but it's better that you have them when you need them than running out too quickly. In this manner, I feel you increase your odds of survival. Of course there are exceptions.

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 15:56

Re: Faith and Vehumet

duvessa wrote:
amalloy wrote:
svendre wrote:one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile


When did this become common wisdom?
It didn't, svendre is just insane.


You present no argument whatsoever. I don't appreciate your trollish insults.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 16:05

Re: Faith and Vehumet

Right... you don't want to waste invocations on popcorn. But in general, it's much much better to open strong than finish strong — if you're going to need to quaff !might, it's way better to do it before you start the fight than after you've realized regular melee won't work. You don't need to spend the turn buffing, you start at full HP so you have less risk of dying anyhow, you spend less time resting at the end of the fight...

Similarly, almost all invocations are stronger at the start of a fight than after you've realized things are going wrong. Yeah, there are exceptions (Enter the Abyss, Step from Time) but those are explicitly designed as escapes. Summon-type, buff-type, conjuration-type, and hex-type invocations are opening moves.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 16:11

Re: Faith and Vehumet

njvack wrote:Right... you don't want to waste invocations on popcorn. But in general, it's much much better to open strong than finish strong — if you're going to need to quaff !might, it's way better to do it before you start the fight than after you've realized regular melee won't work. You don't need to spend the turn buffing, you start at full HP so you have less risk of dying anyhow, you spend less time resting at the end of the fight...

Similarly, almost all invocations are stronger at the start of a fight than after you've realized things are going wrong. Yeah, there are exceptions (Enter the Abyss, Step from Time) but those are explicitly designed as escapes. Summon-type, buff-type, conjuration-type, and hex-type invocations are opening moves.


I don't disagree with what you're saying. I would also quaff the might or pop the big invocation before I'm already close to being in deep trouble, or to prevent from being in trouble. But, when I do so, I do so with an assessment that things look like they would be bad if I *were to* only rely on the first lines of defense. The prioritization is the same, the execution is performed on an assessment.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 944

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Friday, 15th February 2019, 16:29

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre: I am sorry but I really do not get your argument. Faith is bad because it would make you too strong, i.e. it lets you use more of the strong invocations than needed to win the game? Or what?

Surely, I also like passives and tabbing more because (especially the mid-late) game is way too long/boring/many keypresses, and I am too lazy to track my piety, etc.,
but it does not make faith less strong, and I expect in an advice thread to make an explicit distinction between what is strong and what is convenient.

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Saturday, 16th February 2019, 15:51

Re: Faith and Vehumet

sanka wrote:svendre: I am sorry but I really do not get your argument. Faith is bad because it would make you too strong, i.e. it lets you use more of the strong invocations than needed to win the game? Or what?

Surely, I also like passives and tabbing more because (especially the mid-late) game is way too long/boring/many keypresses, and I am too lazy to track my piety, etc.,
but it does not make faith less strong, and I expect in an advice thread to make an explicit distinction between what is strong and what is convenient.


Ok I'll try to restate what I meant. Lets put the game's abilities into categories:
* Melee/Ranged - you can use them over and over, they don't run out (well some ammo constraints) - If you're able to use these and not have many problems, then you have quite high chances of survival because you have two more stronger layers to draw from.

* Spells - They are unlimited in the sense that you only need to eat/rest to get mana back, but in a fight they are more limited than melee/ranged because you can't always restore mana mid-combat. Spells aren't guaranteed to be more powerful than melee/ranged, but generally speaking they have a wider range of abilities and can be used to more devastating effect than melee/ranged. I pull from spells when melee isn't enough, or I anticipate melee won't be enough. I often have enough mana, but sometimes it can get strained in places like vault5.

* Invocations - Possibly the most powerful of responses for bad situations (also to mitigate anticipated difficult situations). Most use piety, which you cannot rest to restore. So, in this sense it is a more limited resource. Because it is a more limited resource, and because it is a strong response, I intentionally do not spend it just because it recharged. I spend it when the situation calls for a response in a third-level layer of options. I don't get myself into terrible situations that often, so mostly melee/spells handle most encounters. If I do get into what is a bad situation for me, it's unlikely that I would have depleted my piety, and have the battery fully charged (or nearly fully charged) to be able to unleash a very strong counter. There are some invocations which use a smaller amount of piety, and I think it's a better argument that faith can let you keep those abilities on almost all the time, but I've found I really don't need or even want most of those kinds of abilities on most of the time and also I don't usually find myself low on piety without a faith amulet if I am just tapping those abilities from time to time. Maybe if you were speed running and trying to not ever let piety go to waste, faith would have some application - I don't really know, my main concern in games is survival.

* Consumables - I'm just mentioning them to put the piety into perspective. How do you use your consumables? I save them for when I'm about to tackle something hard or it's an oh-sht moment. I don't quaff potions periodically, arbitrarily to just "improve my odds". If am amulet existed which resulted in you finding more potions, I would say that it's a pretty good amulet, but the difference being that you aren't capped to the number of potions you can hold whereas piety can reach a maximum from where it cannot charge any further.

Faith is an increased flow in a layer (piety) that I don't draw from constantly, arbitrarily just to increase my chances of survival. I increase my chances of survival from keeping it well charged for times of emergency. An amulet which affects something that is used by me more often will give me greater returns, and keep me from having many dire situations in the first place.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 944

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Saturday, 16th February 2019, 16:50

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre: Thanks for the explanation!

I, however, disagree, simply based on the *magnitude* of the effects of the amulets, as apart from what they change.

I found that almost all (non artefact) amulets have very small, or even completely negligible effects. There is only three which is noticeable: guardian spirit, rage, and faith. Therefore there is little actual chance to find something that is better than faith so you want to remove it.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 657

Joined: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 09:31

Post Saturday, 16th February 2019, 16:56

Re: Faith and Vehumet

I exclusively play vehumet DEFE and I don't find faith that useful. In fact I have found myself getting a good, high level spell gift that im nowhere near ready to memorise (E.g spellforged servitor around the start of lair)

That forced me to pump spellcasting just to memorise it where I would normally be increasing the damage of my other level 5 spells. It actaully felt like a disadvantage.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 944

Joined: Tuesday, 4th January 2011, 15:03

Post Saturday, 16th February 2019, 17:24

Re: Faith and Vehumet

Well, for Vehumet you can simply remove faith when you get a gift you want but can't memorize yet. Repeatedly if really necessary.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 86

Joined: Sunday, 26th April 2015, 22:16

Post Saturday, 16th February 2019, 18:03

Re: Faith and Vehumet

A suggestion: watch svendre play online when you get the chance. He's good.

Maybe what he does is "atypical" but that doesn't mean his approach/view of the game isn't worth consideration.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4341

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Sunday, 17th February 2019, 07:46

Re: Faith and Vehumet

Svendre
Now add non-random deaths to your reasoning. Do your characters die because they run out of consumables like healing and blink? Faith could have saved them. Do your characters die because they run out of strong options like invocations? Faith could have saved them. All I see from your explanation is that faith is not a big deal for powerful characters because they win anyway.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1886

Joined: Monday, 18th February 2013, 07:59

Location: France

Post Sunday, 17th February 2019, 17:19

Re: Faith and Vehumet

svendre wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:
svendre wrote:I think this situation is pretty clear. If you are worshipping Vehumet, then it is one of the few times IMO that faith amulet is actually worthwhile. The reason is that it will help you achieve maximum piety sooner, thus granting you the final gift sooner. Since Vehumet doesn't do much for you at high piety past the final gift, removing the faith amulet after you've already gotten the gift isn't much of a penalty at all, and then you can switch to a more useful amulet. In the case of other gods where the piety is more usable, you're stuck with a drop in piety for removing it or stuck with the amulet after you're already able to use the highest levels of god abilities.


What's so good about getting final gift earlier?


With Vehumet, it tells you what spells you are going to get offered, which helps your planning and skill training. You can also train those spells you want, and drop Vehumet if you have other ideas how to progress. Last, but not least, you can potentially use those high level conjurations to devastating effect. Even if it is early on and you can't make consistent use of those high level spells, there are several places where it can be a huge help to use your brilliance potions (and possibly temporarily wearing lighter armour) and get a big jump in power and loot (such as firestorming the elf3 vault).

Aren't Vehumet final gifts oriented towards your higher skills ?

The fun fact is that I planned to use Faith to rush 4* piety and the delay the final gifts to get more "medium" spells... And that is actually what I did :p
Online stats
Fastest Hell runes (enter Hell branch -> get the rune)
Icy : 56 / Iron : 126 / Obsidian : 215 / Bone : 125

Blades Runner

Posts: 530

Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19

Post Sunday, 17th February 2019, 19:35

Re: Faith and Vehumet

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Svendre
Now add non-random deaths to your reasoning. Do your characters die because they run out of consumables like healing and blink? Faith could have saved them. Do your characters die because they run out of strong options like invocations? Faith could have saved them. All I see from your explanation is that faith is not a big deal for powerful characters because they win anyway.


Characters die for all sorts of reasons, there's no way to give you any definitive answer. If I had to give an estimate of the most common way of getting killed, I would say that it happens much more often from sudden high damage spikes. Secondly, I would say effects like paralysis. It's been a long time since I frequently died from the attrition of having all my resources run out. I attribute that to the deliberate efforts of conservation and prioritizing. In a vaccuum if you want to say Faith could have saved you, it doesn't mean that much. Sure, alone if it's a choice between having extra piety or not, it isn't a choice at all. The issue is the opportunity cost and what you could have had instead and how it impacts everything else. I think I've spent enough time explaining my point of view on this subject, I'm sorry if you still don't understand. It's okay with me if you just don't agree.


@Blink Frog, thanks for the compliment. Sometimes better than others. I just had a particularly nasty death with 10 runes in tomb3 a couple games ago, though I do blame the wonky new trap mechanics somewhat.

For this message the author svendre has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5287

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 20th February 2019, 01:46

Re: Faith and Vehumet

In general with most gods I find faith most useful for the early ramp up, but not because I'm trying to hit 6* asap, but because the early game is when I'm most likely to need the invocations to survive, and having more uses of it gets you through the early dungeon/lair floors. Later on you can take it off because after lair/orc you can easily clear 2-3 floors and not need a god invocation, so it's easy to rebuild the piety, and you'll be able to maintain it through regular god ability use.

As such I generally consider faith to be excellent early on, and not that useful post first rune (roughly). This assumes that you aren't trying to spam your god abilities all game long and they're more for handling emergencies; if you're trying to blast every single fight with upheaval, keep faith on.

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.