Re: New launcher system
svendre wrote:the amount of time it takes to go between various weaponry and launchers could be looked at and be variable in the way that changing a cloak doesn't take the same amount of time as body armour.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
svendre wrote:the amount of time it takes to go between various weaponry and launchers could be looked at and be variable in the way that changing a cloak doesn't take the same amount of time as body armour.
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sdynet wrote:ok. I'll take this matter into consideration and make a new proposal.
Opinion 1. launcher needs five turn to Wear on/off. This is extreme, but it can block most weapons Switching.
Opinion 2. Change the bullet to a rechargeable format. (maybe, Is the charging method XP or Exploration?) Magazine increases proportionally to skill level. And I will introduce the concept of miscast here. If your skill level is low, you are likely to waste additional bullets. For example, when your skill level is zero, the size of the magazine is five. When you use the launcher, you lose 1-3 more bulletins with a 33% chance. This probability is zero when the skill level is 15 or higher.
If you don't like misscast, you can set the charge speed low. These methods will make hunter's early game difficult, but... I think this is better than being neglected in indifference like this.
Opinion 3. Add +1 LOS to all launcher. This enhances the strength and weakness of launcher.
Throwing has four ways.
First, remove. Their duties are left to wand.
Second, change to the launcher weapon.
Third, change to the evocation item.
Fourth, Keep it the way it is. However, the concept miscast applies.
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njvack wrote:You could also lean into the similarity of missiles and conjurations, and give the same sorts of drawbacks to low-skill missile combat that exist for conjurations. If there were a 5% chance of a longbow misfiring and making an alarm-level noise or slowing you or something, you'd probably not use it super much.
If conjurations move more in the direction of the Positional Attack Spells thread, then you even get a nice distinction in that missiles get simple targeting.
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Siegurt wrote:njvack wrote:You could also lean into the similarity of missiles and conjurations, and give the same sorts of drawbacks to low-skill missile combat that exist for conjurations. If there were a 5% chance of a longbow misfiring and making an alarm-level noise or slowing you or something, you'd probably not use it super much.
If conjurations move more in the direction of the Positional Attack Spells thread, then you even get a nice distinction in that missiles get simple targeting.
This is a much better type of solution than the "prevent people from switching to/from ranged weapons during combat" type of solution. It more directly addresses the root of the problem, and doesn't require any weird special casing for throwing.
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svendre wrote:Siegurt wrote:njvack wrote:You could also lean into the similarity of missiles and conjurations, and give the same sorts of drawbacks to low-skill missile combat that exist for conjurations. If there were a 5% chance of a longbow misfiring and making an alarm-level noise or slowing you or something, you'd probably not use it super much.
If conjurations move more in the direction of the Positional Attack Spells thread, then you even get a nice distinction in that missiles get simple targeting.
This is a much better type of solution than the "prevent people from switching to/from ranged weapons during combat" type of solution. It more directly addresses the root of the problem, and doesn't require any weird special casing for throwing.
If it was an alarm, then you'd have people sitting on staircases firing their bow over and over just to trigger the alarm ability, get some free shots in, head upstairs and come down a different set. If it was a random slow effect, then that would be far worse than longer weapon swap times and I probably wouldn't ever use it.
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petercordia wrote:If you make the damage/accuracy low enough at low skill levels, it'll almost never be worth the bother to fire/throw stuff with no training.
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Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.23.0 (webtiles) character file.
petercordia3 the Slinger (Halfling Abyssal Knight) Turns: 13096, Time: 00:48:31
Health: 65/65 AC: 13 Str: 16 XL: 10 Next: 7%
Magic: 14/14 EV: 8 Int: 10 God: Lugonu [****..]
Gold: 482 SH: 6 Dex: 15 Spells: 9/9 levels left
rFire . . . SeeInvis . b - +0 hunting sling
rCold . . . Gourm . z - +0 buckler
rNeg . . . Faith . D - +0 plate armour
rPois . Spirit . (no helmet)
rElec . Reflect . (no cloak)
rCorr . Harm . F - +0 pair of gloves
MR ..... (no boots)
Stlth .......... (no amulet)
HPRegen 0.20/turn (no ring)
MPRegen 0.14/turn (no ring)
@: no status effects
A: small, mutation resistance 1
a: Depart the Abyss, Bend Space, Banish, Corrupt, Renounce Religion
You are on level 7 of the Dungeon.
You worship Lugonu.
Lugonu is greatly pleased with you.
You are not hungry.
You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 8 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have collected 482 gold pieces.
Inventory:
Hand Weapons
a - a +1 falchion
b - a +0 hunting sling (weapon)
Missiles
d - 208 stones (quivered)
s - 9 throwing nets
y - 27 sling bullets
C - 88 arrows
Armour
k - a shield
z - a +0 buckler (worn)
D - a +0 plate armour (worn)
F - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
Jewellery
e - an encrusted ivory ring
Wands
w - a wand of random effects (19)
H - a wand of digging (7)
Scrolls
f - 3 scrolls labeled WEELLU CIAFENI
h - a scroll labeled SESOUGH UGYAT
j - 3 scrolls labeled DUVVOACIZI
l - 2 scrolls labeled AZOCSUWASUQ
m - 4 scrolls labeled OTUNUW WOUHIJO
p - a scroll labeled DEUPHEUZICU
q - a scroll labeled IKHAKO QEGUR
r - 4 scrolls labeled VODORU JE JUE
t - a scroll labeled YTSIEQ LEECZU
u - 2 scrolls labeled OCETHR YMULIPH
x - 2 scrolls labeled KOCUPRUOCA
E - a scroll labeled YPSYGO ALOICIST
G - a scroll labeled AKETUA WUINYCA
Potions
g - 2 fizzy brown potions
i - a glowing red potion
o - a potion of berserk rage
v - a potion of agility
A - 2 blue potions
B - 2 fizzy puce potions
Comestibles
c - 19 rations
n - a chunk of flesh
Skills:
+ Level 4.7 Fighting
+ Level 5.5 Long Blades
* Level 11.5 Slings
+ Level 5.1 Armour
+ Level 2.9 Dodging
* Level 3.0 Shields
* Level 5.7 Invocations
You have 9 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.
Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 |
---------------+-------------------------------+-----
Fighting | 3 4 | 4.7
Dodging | 2 | 2.9
Long Blades | 3 4 5 | 5.5
Armour | 3 4 5 | 5.1
Slings | 3 6 9 11 | 11.5
Invocations | 4 5 | 5.7
Shields | 2 3 | 3.0
Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Falchion | 99 | 225 | 386 | 34 || 744
Fire: Hunting sling | | 106 | 515 | 16 || 637
Throw: Stone | | 3 | 4 | || 7
Invok: Depart the Abyss | 1 | | | || 1
Bend Space | | 18 | 59 | || 77
Banish | | | 1 | || 1
Use: Potion | | | 1 | || 1
Eat: Chunk | 2 | 10 | 25 | 2 || 39
Ration | | | 2 | || 2
Armor: Ring mail | 26 | | | || 26
Scale mail | 12 | 101 | 91 | || 204
Plate armour | | | 99 | 10 || 109
Dodge: Dodged | 83 | 201 | 205 | 11 || 500
Block: Buckler | | | 33 | 11 || 44
Rpst.: Falchion | 26 | 54 | 50 | 5 || 135
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petercordia wrote:yes I like the concept of hunter (and AM), although I do find them very difficult to play.
I agree there's a constraint that launchers must be worth using at the starting skill level, but that seems ok. Say accuracy is rubbish below skill level 4 (the Hunter starting skill). Most of my melee dudes don't train a launcher to skill level 4. Hunter would be fine. Melee dudes wouldn't use launchers.
For the AM it would lead to the interesting situation where they actually need to Corona everything they want to kill. Since wizards need to Magic Dart everything they want to kill, I don't think it'd be a disaster.
If you're worried that it will become optimal to train launchers to skill level 4, don't worry. A level of usefulness which is good enough to survive D:1 is not even enough to be a significant buff in D:15. If it's balanced well it may be just as effective to put skill points in a launcher as in armour.
If nerving launchers nerfs Hunters and AM, I think there are nice ways to buff these. eg, Give them 100 bolts instead of 20. I'm not sure that would be balanced, but I think it'd be fun. Currently my hunters use a dagger until they get into an emergency, then switch to the crossbow. If they had a 100 bolts they could just pepper everything from a distance. Even if the hit chance of each bolt was only 1/3, they'd probably still survive D:1.
All the above also applies to my suggestion of making the mulch rate skill dependent.
petercordia wrote:Ammo management, meanwhile, is trivial. There are enough stones (though very few bullets so far), so I just press 'o' after every battle.
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petercordia wrote:The thing is, the falcon and the sling have the same stats (+2 to hit, 7 damage) but the falcon (at 5.5 skill) deals with enemies a lot faster
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hawthornbunny wrote:I was thinking about the issue of ranged combat allegedly being uninteresting, and I had the following idea that I wonder if it's any good: what if all ranged weapons used Smite-targeting? That is, the purpose of ranged weapons would not be to extend range, but to specifically target enemies that can't be reached in melee.
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PseudoLoneWolf wrote:Allow me to remind you how dangerous orc priests are in early D levels and then apply that template to every enemy Centaur as well. That is all.
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