Slime Squisher
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Slime Squisher
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Blades Runner
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Blades Runner
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Slime Squisher
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Tomb Titivator
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Blades Runner
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delarado wrote:I find killer bee swarms hard enough in Lair. I'm glad I've never seen them on d:2 (although I'm pretty sure I saw a hell knight on d:3 or something silly the other day)
Zot Zealot
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Blades Runner
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chequers wrote:It's a good tradeoff for d:2 killer bees to occasionally be "guaranteed death despite perfect play" if they mostly are survivable by running away, and I think that's mostly true.
Zot Zealot
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Slime Squisher
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Blades Runner
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chequers wrote:The bee might not notice you due to stealth. There might be a door to close. You might be one of many starts with a way of dealing with a bee or two (Fi has might, Gl has net, As has curare, Ar has wands, just from first column).
Reducing d:2 bees to "well I'm dead" is short changing the possibility space that DCSS offers.
DCSS generates exciting situations which are sometimes unsolvable. I think early killer bees are a decent contribution to that. Unfortunately it's hard to get stats about what happens to players when they encounter bees on d:2. I can say they represent about 0.2% of d:2 deaths, but that's pretty meaningless without knowing what percentage of games get a d:2 bee spawn.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Cocytus Succeeder
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Slime Squisher
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Barkeep
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Ziggurat Zagger
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njvack wrote:Yeah, D:2 bees are dangerous AF and will kill a lot of characters. But here's the thing: sometimes you will survive. You might be near enough to stairs or a door. You might have good a summon or consumable that helps. Maybe you have Passwall. You might be just about to get trounced and then run into a shaft or teleport trap and then need to figure out how to survive in that new situation. Better gameplay and thinking about your options will absolutely make the situation more survivable.
And in those cases, the ones where you do survive, you'll have "that one game where there was a friggin' bee pack on D:2 and you still won because X and Y and Z" and those stories are an important part of a big roguelike's nature.
And when you die, you'll have "that one game that was amazing until D:2 where there was a friggin' bee pack and you couldn't do anything" and those stories are, too.
Slime Squisher
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Barkeep
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:So it will result in lots of unavoidable deaths and sometimes you will escape by miracle?
Dungeon Master
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:We don't put packs of orbs of fire on Depths:1, do we?
Ziggurat Zagger
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CanOfWorms wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:We don't put packs of orbs of fire on Depths:1, do we?
no, we put packs of caustic shrikes (which were explicitly designed as "killer bees of depths")
Slime Squisher
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njvack wrote:If it resulted in lots of unavoidable deaths, yeah, that would be bad. As far as I know, this results in vanishingly few unavoidable deaths. Even if you do run into a D:2 bee, it's a situation where good play can make death more avoidable.
Barkeep
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Nekoatl wrote:When you say "vanishingly few", are you looking at A/B or A/C?
Ziggurat Zagger
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njvack wrote:Nekoatl wrote:When you say "vanishingly few", are you looking at A/B or A/C?
I'm using 'vanishingly few' in a purely qualitative way. Basically, I'm saying "D:2 bees are rare spawns" and "relatively few deaths are truly unavoidable."
It's true that an encounter like a D:2 bee requires you to look at your resources and maybe take some risks you wouldn't later in the game, but it's also true that you will almost always have something at your disposal to help tip the odds in your favor.
I guess I simply reject your original assertion that the scenario "involves no meaningful decisions and no relevance to player skill." Instead, having monsters where the normal tactics of "just kill it" and "just walk away" don't work as well as normal are helps to differentiate player skill.
Next time you find yourself in a "I have just seen a monster and it will unavoidably kill me" situation: Stop and post a character dump to Advice; you will likely find that the death is more avoidable than you think.
Vestibule Violator
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:What kind of skill do you have in mind here? Identifying your scrolls on D:1 so you have teleportation or blinking? Exploring in spiral around stair and shouting? Major problem with the pack is that even most powerful consumable are worthless because the bees are very fast, deal lots of damage, lots of poison and there are many of them. Haste/resistance/confusion/paralysis/might/agility/fear etc. are very unlikely to help you unless you were lucky to meet the bees in a corridor or were noticed by only one of them.njvack wrote:Nekoatl wrote:When you say "vanishingly few", are you looking at A/B or A/C?
I'm using 'vanishingly few' in a purely qualitative way. Basically, I'm saying "D:2 bees are rare spawns" and "relatively few deaths are truly unavoidable."
It's true that an encounter like a D:2 bee requires you to look at your resources and maybe take some risks you wouldn't later in the game, but it's also true that you will almost always have something at your disposal to help tip the odds in your favor.
I guess I simply reject your original assertion that the scenario "involves no meaningful decisions and no relevance to player skill." Instead, having monsters where the normal tactics of "just kill it" and "just walk away" don't work as well as normal are helps to differentiate player skill.
Next time you find yourself in a "I have just seen a monster and it will unavoidably kill me" situation: Stop and post a character dump to Advice; you will likely find that the death is more avoidable than you think.
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Slime Squisher
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Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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duvessa wrote:It would really help your case if you had, like, even a single example of an unavoidable death to a killer bee that actually happened. A ttyrec would be sufficient.
Ziggurat Zagger
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byrel wrote:Eh. I'd think that fear, at least, is going to save you 90+% of the time. (Along with many of the consumables you didn't mention; lignification, teleport, blinking, enslavement, clouds, etc.)
I also suspect that people are underestimating average stealth on D:1. Something like half the backgrounds start with positive stealth, and it's fairly likely that low HD animals don't auto-spot you on walking into LOS.
Maces & Flails
| Source | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Acc | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpd | AvEffDam
0 | Player | 7,3 | 18 | 16% | 1,2 | 140 | 0,71 | 0,9
1 | Player | 6,9 | 20 | 17% | 1,2 | 135 | 0,74 | 0,9
2 | Player | 7,0 | 22 | 19% | 1,4 | 130 | 0,77 | 1,1
3 | Player | 6,8 | 23 | 18% | 1,3 | 125 | 0,80 | 1,0
4 | Player | 7,5 | 23 | 19% | 1,5 | 120 | 0,83 | 1,2
5 | Player | 7,4 | 22 | 21% | 1,6 | 115 | 0,87 | 1,4
6 | Player | 7,5 | 26 | 23% | 1,7 | 110 | 0,91 | 1,6
7 | Player | 7,9 | 23 | 22% | 1,8 | 105 | 0,95 | 1,7
8 | Player | 8,4 | 24 | 22% | 1,9 | 100 | 1,00 | 1,9
9 | Player | 8,2 | 27 | 24% | 2,0 | 95 | 1,05 | 2,1
10 | Player | 8,3 | 22 | 27% | 2,3 | 90 | 1,11 | 2,5
11 | Player | 8,3 | 21 | 25% | 2,1 | 85 | 1,18 | 2,5
12 | Player | 8,7 | 24 | 26% | 2,3 | 80 | 1,25 | 2,9
13 | Player | 8,9 | 27 | 27% | 2,4 | 75 | 1,33 | 3,2
14 | Player | 9,1 | 25 | 27% | 2,5 | 70 | 1,43 | 3,6
15 | Player | 9,0 | 28 | 30% | 2,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 3,9
16 | Player | 9,9 | 29 | 29% | 2,9 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,1
17 | Player | 9,8 | 25 | 29% | 2,8 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,1
18 | Player | 9,5 | 26 | 31% | 3,0 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,2
19 | Player | 9,9 | 34 | 31% | 3,2 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,5
20 | Player | 9,7 | 26 | 30% | 3,0 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,2
21 | Player | 10,0 | 28 | 31% | 3,2 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,6
22 | Player | 10,4 | 36 | 32% | 3,4 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,8
23 | Player | 10,1 | 28 | 33% | 3,4 | 70 | 1,43 | 4,9
24 | Player | 10,7 | 34 | 33% | 3,6 | 70 | 1,43 | 5,1
25 | Player | 10,9 | 33 | 33% | 3,6 | 70 | 1,43 | 5,2
26 | Player | 11,4 | 28 | 33% | 3,8 | 70 | 1,43 | 5,5
Armour
| Source | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Acc | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpd | AvEffDam
0 | Mons | 0,7 | 6 | 91% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,2
1 | Mons | 0,6 | 6 | 91% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,2
2 | Mons | 0,6 | 6 | 91% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,1
3 | Mons | 0,6 | 6 | 91% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,1
4 | Mons | 0,7 | 6 | 90% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,2
5 | Mons | 0,6 | 6 | 90% | 0,6 | 50 | 2,00 | 1,2
Ziggurat Zagger
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Vestibule Violator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Vestibule Violator
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Why 9 tiles? XL 3 Mi has 30 HP, that's 3 max damage attacks of killer bee, 1.5 turns (it has speed 20) and as bonus you get extra 6-12 poison damage from every attack if wiki is correct.
Nekoatl wrote:Well then, I'll make a mental note to learn what a ttyrec is should I ever encounter D:2 bees again.
Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Snake Sneak
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Snake Sneak
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Nekoatl wrote:The closest we could get would be to create an experimental branch where D:2 is always guaranteed to contain 1 swarm of bees that must be encountered before players can descend to D:3 *snip*
Abyss Ambulator
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you need some items to survive a monster pack, generating the monster pack is a bad idea.
Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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sanka wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:If you need some items to survive a monster pack, generating the monster pack is a bad idea.
Uhm, why? I thought the point of items is to use them...
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