How to win Deep Elves?

[svendre]

How to win with a deep elf. I'll simplify this answer for you based on experience:

1) Yes, use shields... they are good. Probably not higher than a medium shield. An enhancer staff is 1-handed.
2) Use an enhancer staff, usually conjuration or fire/earth, and/or energy
3) Don't let your strength slip terribly. Try to wear at least ice dragon armour (balanced with ring of flames.), try using steam or acid dragon until then.
4) Don't forget to train a weapon as a backup. Staff of fire/earth is a decent substitute.
5) Fire is probably the easiest school to build around. Use flame tongue, throw flame, conjure flame, inner flames, sticky flames, fireball, bolt of fire, ignition, firestorm.
6) Earth is a decent backup secondary magic school. Use stone arrow, bolt of magma, statue form (if needed), iron shot, LCS, shatter
7) Best gods: TSO, Makhleb (use necromutation), Kiku, Vehumet (has problems killing greater mummies if doing extended)

Primary training: fighting, armour, evasion, shields, spellcasting, conjuration, fire, earth, necromancy (if going evil)
Secondary training: charms, air, weapon, invocations, evocations, translocations (for blink), summoning (for aura of abjuration)

This advice is worse than VeryAngryFelid's math

Please do not comment on my suggestions with no reasoning why for anything. It just comes off as trolling. Thanks!

[VeryAngryFelid]

Please do not comment on my suggestions with no reasoning why for anything. It just comes off as trolling. Thanks!

I thanked duvessa's post so here is my explanation:
Your suggestions are more suited for mega-zig character, not for "how to win deep elf" thread. Just try to win 3 rune game as worshiper of TSO with fire storm and shatter in ice dragon scales with regular shield and say it was the easiest game.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Question. Would you train shields to 27 and use +8 large shield for the former? Really???

I wouldn't train shields to 27 for either one, personally.

We are ignoring shield limitations (penalty for extra blocks, unblockable attacks, shields skill breakpoint, aptitudes etc.) in this thread so you may assume I suggested to train it to 15 as Na. Also fsim-ed character used +8 large shield and Shields 27 for more clarity so I suggested exactly what it used.

[Siegurt]

For more clarity look at accuracy, not damage. Blocking 68 attacks out of 100 cannot equals to blocking just 13 attacks.

Again, we're comparing different things, you're looking at "how much does this improve my total defenses" which is immaterial, the question is *how much does it improve my defenses, given whatever defense I already have*

To clarify "how useful is this shield" isn't asking "is it worth the cost" nor is it asking "what portion of my total defenses would this shield apply, if I were to use it" We aren't looking at how much it costs, because we would need to know what the value and cost of the things were that you could get instead (which doesn't directly impact the usefulness of the shield, although it certainly might impact whether you would use it) Nor do we care what portion of your defense does the shield comprises, as you already have whatever non-shield defenses you have, adding a shield doesn't change those, and the only reason to consider whether to add a shield is that whatever your defenses are, you want more.

In short *it doesn't matter what portion of all attacks a shield blocks* it only matters *how much it improves your defenses starting from wherever you already are* which is always the same for a given amount of SH.

You are (and I have said this 4 times now you just refuse to actually read it) LOOKING AT THE WRONG THING. Seriously, that's it, that's all it is, you keep looking at the same number from a different angle, and coming up with the same result, because you keep looking at the same thing, which happens to be the wrong thing.

No matter how you slice it, no matter where you try to pull your examples from, you keep pulling up the same thing and saying "X is greater than Y" and I keep telling you that we are talking about Z, and you keep saying "But X is greater than Y"

I'm going to repost this here, read this and see if you can figure out why I'm talking about red/white and not red/orange

1. Consider Two characters fighting two monsters Character A (CA), fighting Monster A (MA) and Character B (CB) fighting Monster B (MB)
2. CA evades 70% of all attacks, CB evades 0%
3. CA and CB have the same number of hit points, AC, GMDR, and identical offense
4. MA does 333.33% of MB's damage, such that the amount of damage incoming after everything to CA and CB are the same, (333.33% damage * 70% evaded is roughly 100%)
5. CA and CB both decide that this is more damage than is acceptable.
6. Consider the impact of adding a shield that blocks 20% of incoming attacks to either or both CA and CB, the increase in the absolute reduction in the number of points of damage taken is identical, and since the other values are the same their ability to survive combat is identically impacted.

To give you another hint, red/orange *is* a measure, but it's not a measure of *usefulness* it's a measure of *efficiency*

[VeryAngryFelid]

You are (and I have said this 4 times now you just refuse to actually read it) LOOKING AT THE WRONG THING. Seriously, that's it, that's all it is, you keep looking at the same number from a different angle, and coming up with the same result, because you keep looking at the same thing, which happens to be the wrong thing.

Of course I can tell you exactly the same. I tried 4 times and some other approaches hoping you would realize that it is you who is looking from wrong angle.

I'm going to repost this here, read this and see if you can figure out why I'm talking about red/white and not red/orange
...
To give you another hint, red/orange *is* a measure, but it's not a measure of *usefulness* it's a measure of *efficiency*

Wait, are you saying it is possible to have different shield *efficiency* for characters which find shield as useful? That would explain everything
The red area is literally "shield is useful" because for those attacks shield saved you and EV failed.
The orange area + green area is literally "shield is useless" because for those attacks it was not even checked (it does not matter that SH check technically happens first, we can freely swap them if we ignore shield penalty for consecutive attacks).
Ignoring sizes of orange and green area looks ridiculous to me. Ok, finally I have just realized nobody is going to change their mind.

[Plantissue]

More fsims.

First character.
Without shield and with shield:

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Defending:     26,9 |     55 |      18% |   4,9 |   100  |  1,00 |      4,9
Defending:     26,4 |     55 |       5% |   1,4 |   100  |  1,00 |      1,4

Second character.
Without shield and with shield:

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Defending:     27,4 |     55 |      97% |  26,8 |   100  |  1,00 |     26,8
Defending:     27,4 |     55 |      29% |   8,0 |   100  |  1,00 |      8,0

Question. Would you train shields to 27 and use +8 large shield for the former? Really???

If you are aiming to reduce the proportion of damage, they are both equally effective are they not? What is the relative difference in effectiveness? The first is 3.5 after the shield and the second is 3.35. Considering the big difference in evasion, we can consider that as a rounding error and say that there is no difference in effectiveness. They can both take the same extra proportion of extra damage.

I don't get why you are so obstinate. Your working method for your maths is wrong. Your maths was trying to work out effectiveness and it does not conform to your fsim results, and it STILL does not conform to your fsim result.

If you want to say that the first character might be better off training or equiping better offence, you may very well be right depending on what training and equipment the characters may have, but in both cases the proportion of defence that is increased by shield is exactly the same relatively. But that isn't what you was trying to work out with your maths. Why pretend you was not? Your:

"First character blocks 20% attacks and dodges 0.8*0.3=24% attacks so it blocks/dodges 44% attacks which is 14% improvement (44-30).
Second character blocks 20% attacks and dodges 0.8*0.7=56% attacks so it blocks/dodges 76% attacks which is 6% improvement (76 - 70)."

Has absolutely nothing to do with whether a character has good enough defence or not for a branch. It has nothing to do with working out whether or not you would prefer to put training somewhere else that isn't defence.

If you had simply replied to my question that you think that SH isn't so effective when EV is high, because the defences are good enough for a branch level, then I probably would had gone, "ok, that's what you meant, carry on.", but instead you used nonsensical maths to prove that it is relatively less effective at higher EV, which your second fsim have proved you wrong again.

If a character dodge/shield rate goes to 100%, (it doesn't actually matter which), that should always result in infinite improvement as the character is now invincible. Your method does not, therefore your mathematical method is nonsense. That you deny this basic logic is akin to claiming that the sky is an interesting black and white polkadot pattern.

We can agree that if defences are high, then training can be better placed elsewhere, but it still doesn't change that your working method for the maths for working out defence is utter nonsense.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I was talking about usefulness, Siegurt was saying that *efficiency* can be different, now you are saying that there is no difference in *effectiveness*.
If each of two bets allowed me to double my money, the bets are not necessarily equally useful/effective/efficient because one of them might bring me $1 and another $1.000.
Anyway, as I said above, finally I have realized nobody is going to change their mind so I don't even know why I am still posting especially in non-native language which brings lots of confusion

[svendre]

Please do not comment on my suggestions with no reasoning why for anything. It just comes off as trolling. Thanks!

I thanked duvessa's post so here is my explanation:
Your suggestions are more suited for mega-zig character, not for "how to win deep elf" thread. Just try to win 3 rune game as worshiper of TSO with fire storm and shatter in ice dragon scales with regular shield and say it was the easiest game.

The OP didn't explicitly specify a 3 rune game only. Also, I didn't say "only use ice dragon armour and fire storm". I included a number of items and spells to work up to that level such as suggesting steam dragon and acid dragon armour. As for fire storm itself, it's not that hard to be able to cast it with a deep elf. The thing is, you can strategically change your armour if you need to (like just before nuking a vault), you can quaff brilliance potions to facilitate high level spells when they are strategic to use, you can use a wizardry staff, rings, and other stuff to help also. None of these things stop you from trying to overall be a bit tougher than just a squishy robe wearing elf, which was a big part of my advice (use armour, train a weapon..) Anyways ice dragon scales aren't that tough to cast in because you might find some +int,+str items, or you could simply stick to lower level spells like sticky flame, conjure flame, maybe ring of flames (high charms apt) until you get further along. This kind of playing can be more consistent than glass cannon. Picking on TSO, why? There is nothing wrong with TSO for a 3 rune game. TSO is a strong god in general for a vast number of reasons, and judging by all the ghosts in vaults I've seen in trunk, even more so in recent times. As for earth magic, it was suggested as a secondary school, meaning, you could add it on later if you were going further in the game. So you cherry picked shatter out to say I was only discussing mega-zigs? How about stone arrow? Would you use stone arrow in a mega zig? If not, then why did you leave it out in your assessment of my tips?

[VeryAngryFelid]

The OP didn't explicitly specify a 3 rune game only. Also, I didn't say "only use ice dragon armour and fire storm". I included a number of items and spells to work up to that level such as suggesting steam dragon and acid dragon armour. As for fire storm itself, it's not that hard to be able to cast it with a deep elf. The thing is, you can strategically change your armour if you need to (like just before nuking a vault), you can quaff brilliance potions to facilitate high level spells when they are strategic to use, you can use a wizardry staff, rings, and other stuff to help also. None of these things stop you from trying to overall be a bit tougher than just a squishy robe wearing elf, which was a big part of my advice (use armour, train a weapon..) As for earth magic, it was suggested as a secondary school, meaning, you could add it on later if you were going further in the game. So you cherry picked shatter out to say I was only discussing mega-zigs? How about stone arrow? Would you use stone arrow in a mega zig? If not, then why did you leave it out in your assessment of my tips?

OP wrote "Because of this, I have never managed to win a DE caster" and also "Their weapon and most of their defensive aptitudes are poor, so they require large exp investment to get good at melee" and then you are suggesting to train 2 level 9 spells along with necromancy, charms, fighting, armour, dodging, shield, weapon, invocations, evocations, put stat points into Dex etc.
I see your advice as "train everything you may ever need and use the god who is among the worst for winning a game aka TSO".

[svendre]

The OP didn't explicitly specify a 3 rune game only. Also, I didn't say "only use ice dragon armour and fire storm". I included a number of items and spells to work up to that level such as suggesting steam dragon and acid dragon armour. As for fire storm itself, it's not that hard to be able to cast it with a deep elf. The thing is, you can strategically change your armour if you need to (like just before nuking a vault), you can quaff brilliance potions to facilitate high level spells when they are strategic to use, you can use a wizardry staff, rings, and other stuff to help also. None of these things stop you from trying to overall be a bit tougher than just a squishy robe wearing elf, which was a big part of my advice (use armour, train a weapon..) As for earth magic, it was suggested as a secondary school, meaning, you could add it on later if you were going further in the game. So you cherry picked shatter out to say I was only discussing mega-zigs? How about stone arrow? Would you use stone arrow in a mega zig? If not, then why did you leave it out in your assessment of my tips?

OP wrote "Because of this, I have never managed to win a DE caster" and also "Their weapon and most of their defensive aptitudes are poor, so they require large exp investment to get good at melee" and then you are suggesting to train 2 level 9 spells along with necromancy, charms, fighting, armour, dodging, shield, weapon, invocations, evocations, put stat points into Dex etc.
I see your advice as "train everything you may ever need and use the god who is among the worst for winning a game aka TSO".

It wasn't advice to train everything. It was a prioritization and a list of most useful tactics. Of course what you train and how much of it should also correspond to what you find and how the game develops. Once again, I listed a progression of spells how a character could develop, I never once said only train level 9 spells and everything else. When ever did I say put points into Dex?! I would advise str/int.

The character could wear tankier armour, and use spells like sticky flame, conjure flame... invest more in fighting/armour/evasion/shields (the primary stuff I listed) AND train spellcasting, conjuration and fire (yes, even some earth possibly) and remain a functional character. As the character progresses I suggested a path it could build into. There are multiple paths to consider along the way. I don't see why this is so confusing for you to understand.

At least most of my advice has reasoning, unlike yours "TSO is among the worst for winning a game".. lol. You don't say why. If the OP wants a more in depth explanation of why, I am happy to provide it. Meanwhile, why can't people stick to giving their own advice instead of throwing darts with no substance at other people's tips?

[duvessa]

"the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Alberto Brandolini

Do I really need to go into how telling someone to train 3 elemental schools and a weapon is bad advice?

TSO is bad because you get a bit of accuracy, an attack that sucks without really high invocations, and a summon in exchange for losing your god slot, access to a bunch of spells, and even your stealth. Fedhas, Kiku, Makhleb, and Nemelex all offer comparable or better summons without the penalties and offer other useful things too.

[svendre]

"the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Alberto Brandolini

Do I really need to go into how telling someone to train 3 elemental schools and a weapon is bad advice?

TSO is bad because you get a bit of accuracy, an attack that sucks without really high invocations, and a summon in exchange for losing your god slot, access to a bunch of spells, and even your stealth. Fedhas, Kiku, Makhleb, and Nemelex all offer comparable or better summons without the penalties and offer other useful things too.

Training 3 elemental schools? Hmm I suggested fire primarily, maybe earth, and maybe some other options for specific spells (a touch of air for deflect missiles), and clearly for a longer game since I didn't list those as primary skills.

TSO is good because you have SInv on a fragile character, accuracy is higher on a character that isn't fully focused on fighting/weapon, rN+++ helps you gear up, health+mana on kills against dangerous enemies, increased defense from higher shields on a guy I suggested to use a medium shield and a staff with minimal invocations investment. Attack doesn't suck because staff damage is coming from spell school and evocations which is needed somewhat when you want to channel mana...Stealth isn't as important on this particular build using heavier armour because you aren't pumpnig dex and you're going to try wearing a heavier armour....and using TSO. Holy branded weapon is good because it's effective on some of the more dangerous creatures, it's really just another benefit. Oh, and, if you are going to have high invocations as you suggested, you completely failed to mention one of the best reasons: the holy blasts.

Fedhas, whatever not my favorite to play, but I guess we're all entitled to our opinions. Kiku and Makhleb, I mentioned *both*, Nemelex can be strong but it's pretty annoying with all the decks in inventory, plus you don't really need strong evocations until later if/when you find a staff of energy for channeling. High evocations early on for a blaster is fairly redundant with the spells and you'd be better off with more even defenses/spellcasting.

Yes, that did take more energy.
At least Alberto got it right!

[Plantissue]

I was talking about usefulness, Siegurt was saying that *efficiency* can be different, now you are saying that there is no difference in *effectiveness*.
If each of two bets allowed me to double my money, the bets are not necessarily equally useful/effective/efficient because one of them might bring me $1 and another $1.000.
Anyway, as I said above, finally I have realized nobody is going to change their mind so I don't even know why I am still posting especially in non-native language which brings lots of confusion

They are just as proportional.

If your AvEffDam from an offensive attack is doubled, it is just as effectively doubled as if it went from 1 dam to 2 dam and 1000 dam to 2000 dam.

Assuming you are attacking a tornado and each of two attack options allowed you to double the damage, you will kill it in half the time you would have otherwise taken.

Note that this question has no relation to do with the VAF's maths.



___
Simple yes/no question.

If a character dodge/shield rate goes to 100%, (it doesn't actually matter which),should that always result in infinite improvement from a former state of not 100%, as the character is now invincible?


YES or NO?

[VeryAngryFelid]

It wasn't advice to train everything. It was a prioritization and a list of most useful tactics. Of course what you train and how much of it should also correspond to what you find and how the game develops. Once again, I listed a progression of spells how a character could develop, I never once said only train level 9 spells and everything else. When ever did I say put points into Dex?! I would advise str/int.

The character could wear tankier armour, and use spells like sticky flame, conjure flame... invest more in fighting/armour/evasion/shields (the primary stuff I listed) AND train spellcasting, conjuration and fire (yes, even some earth possibly) and remain a functional character. As the character progresses I suggested a path it could build into. There are multiple paths to consider along the way. I don't see why this is so confusing for you to understand.

At least most of my advice has reasoning, unlike yours "TSO is among the worst for winning a game".. lol. You don't say why. If the OP wants a more in depth explanation of why, I am happy to provide it. Meanwhile, why can't people stick to giving their own advice instead of throwing darts with no substance at other people's tips?

Sorry, I accidentally wrote Dex instead of Str. Wearing Ice Dragon Scales is a very bad idea for DE caster unless it does not stop you from still using level 9 spell (which is optimal with Vehumet).
Maybe I am wrong but usually people talk about specific auxiliary spells (like try to get Animate Dead or DMsl online if you find it) instead of suggesting to train a school or two. The latter typically means it is useful no matter what and probably is a primary way of killing things. At least it is true for Summoning, Conjurations or Fire.
Duvessa answered why TSO is bad.

[VeryAngryFelid]

If a character dodge/shield rate goes to 100%, (it doesn't actually matter which),should that always result in infinite improvement from a former state of not 100%, as the character is now invincible?
YES or NO?

Of course there is no answer because it is a math fantasy which does not apply to crawl. I am tired of suggesting again and again to carefully explore interpretation.
Just take a step back and consider the character with slightly less dodge/shield rate which is expected to be hit just once (if really unlucky) during the remaining game including 10 megazigs. How is that step from 99.9999999999999% accuracy to 100% is an infinite improvement then? It is 0% improvement instead because you couldn't die from that hit anyway. It saved you 50 HP at most in the whole game, not unlimited amount. Hopefully you will realize that this paradox means situation near 100% cannot be described by the same formula.

By the way this effect is why I believe your ratio formula does not describe in-game situation for really high EV, it does not matter if I can kill 10.000 or 10.000.000 stone giants non-stop, there is no improvement because there are no enough monsters in the game and HP regeneration exists unless you are DD. Yet my "how many attacks the accuracy helps to survive" is always useful and meaningful measure.

[VeryAngryFelid]

You are attacked by a special monster which always deals 50 damage, chance to be hit is 2% for really high EV character and 98% for really low EV character.
Average damage per turn is 1 for high EV and 49 for low EV.
Now let's add a wonder shield which blocks 50% attacks so the accuracy drops down to 1% and 49% correspondingly.
Average damage per turn is 0.5 for high EV and 24.5 for low EV.
Now the most interesting part: if you have 99 HP and lose 1 HP on average every turn while regenerating 1 HP per turn too, you cannot die according to your formula.
Yet in reality, the monster can kill you with 2 attacks. You basically melee it non-stop with both characters until you are hit once. And then suddenly you have to swap to accuracy formula, you no longer care about average damage.
So the shield changed your chance to survive the second attack from 98% to 99% for high EV and from 2% to 51% for low EV character. Now please tell me the shield is as useful to both characters.
I hope I have just proved that accuracy matters, you cannot ignore it and look at average damage per turn only.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Previous post made me realize once again that ratios are really confusing.
One character character has "be hit" chance 10% and shield decreases it to 5%, we can say that chance to avoid attack increased from 90% to 95%.
Another character had "be hit" chance 60% and shield decreased it to 30%, we can say that chance to avoid attack increased from 40% to 70%.
Anyone wants to try to divide 95 by 90 and get the same number as 70 divided by 40? Why not? Shield increases chance to avoid attack, doesn't it?
While absolute numbers always make sense, shield decreased chance to be hit and increased chance to avoid attack by 5% and 30% correspondingly for first and second characters so the shield is more useful to second character.

[Plantissue]

VAF, it's not a trick question. I can't beleive you wrote that there is no answer. The answer is YES.

Jeez. How disappointing.

This is a question that can be worked out intuitively. That you can't work that out, or is unwilling to simply type yes, and then try to cover it by spamming 3 further nonsensical posts speaks volumes.

[VeryAngryFelid]

If you insist on getting an answer, my answer is NO. If you don't understand why, read my previous post once again.

[damerell]

It would help if either of you could actually tell me why or what you are doing, but you both steadfastedly refused to do so, prefering to insist I am wrong. I might as well turn it around and ask you where I am wrong.

I have. You say VAF miscalculated the chance of being hit, but actually the method they used produces the right chance of being hit, something I proved in my first post. You have neither shown any error in that post nor been able to produce any block and dodge chance for which VAF's method actually gives the wrong chance of being hit. Everything else you've posted is a mass of bluster to hide that error.

So, once again, for what block and dodge chance does VAF's method not produce the right odds of being hit?

[akaean]

Interestingly, I like TSO when I play Summoner. I feel that TSO's toolkit offers a lot of interesting benefits at the cost of the high power unholy summons.
Halo prevents invisibility near you, and most summons don't have see invisible. Even if the player has see invisible it doesn't help as much if his summons can't see it and go after it.
Enemies with Abjuration can be obnoxious, and TSO provides passive abjuration resistance to all of your summons. Which is convenient by the time players need to start worrying about enemy summoners like Orc Sorcerers and High Priests. He can also give blessings like healing or extended duration to your other summon's too- like Hydrae.
The obvious downsides is losing out on Gateway, Horrible Things and maybe Haunt- as Menagerie + Hydra aren't really as good as those, and you can't really control what high level summon spells you will actually find. Although there is nothing stopping you from casting Dragon's Call if you find it. Just be careful not to Cleansing Flame a summoned Hydra!

Not that TSO is a good god for DE compared to someone like Ashenzari. Ashenzari is a really nice god for Deep Elves since he boosts all of their spell schools when fully bound, meaning you can get more and varied spells online with lower skill investments- with good power to boot. The skill boosts to defensive skills also make what experience you put in there go that much further. See Invisible, Clarity and mapping / enemy detection also help you pick your fights and flee effectively. Making sure you are able to enter fights at full Mana. I tend to not like gods with stealth penalties when playing casters because early on resting to restore your mana is so important, and being interrupted by a strong band finding you while resting and low on MP is a bad situation.

[aperiodic]

If it does not have to be a spellcaster, try DeHu (Hunter is always strong and you can easily pick up support spells as you find them) or DeBe (harder than most Be, but still strong).

I won a DeHu in the last tournament because it was Nemelex choice. I am not a good player, but I found it quite hard (I did have a hard time getting a longbow, and never got many scrolls of enchant weapon). It was also one of the few Nemelex choice combos that wasn't won 8 times. Because of the low HP, I think this will always be a tedious and dangerous combo to play, unless you get one of the powerful unrandart bows.

[FakerFangirl]

Step 1: Don't be me.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I won a DeHu in the last tournament because it was Nemelex choice. I am not a good player, but I found it quite hard (I did have a hard time getting a longbow, and never got many scrolls of enchant weapon).

I think Okawaru would solve those problems.

[Sprucery]

I won a DeHu in the last tournament because it was Nemelex choice. I am not a good player, but I found it quite hard (I did have a hard time getting a longbow, and never got many scrolls of enchant weapon). It was also one of the few Nemelex choice combos that wasn't won 8 times. Because of the low HP, I think this will always be a tedious and dangerous combo to play, unless you get one of the powerful unrandart bows.

What god did you worship? I would recommend Okawaru for this combo (to play as a hunter; of course there are other gods that are stronger in general).

DE spellcasters are better I guess, but I recommended this combo for some variety.

[VeryAngryFelid]

It was Dith.

[Berder]

DEHu is legit freakin hard. Hu is hard, DE physical fighters are super hard. I passed on DEHu during tourney while I was playing Nemelex's Choice combos because it was too hard for my streak. I just started a local DEHu game and died at xl8. On my 2nd try I started with javelins instead of a bow, and found a D:1 venom dagger and a D:2 Vehumet who gave me good spells, so was able to get to XL11 with a comfortable blaster character, but that was very lucky. It takes a brave man to try DEHu on a streak.

[Sprucery]

Incidentally, my first ever Crawl streak was HEMo, DEHu, DDAs :)

(That was just an accident, I don't play even nearly carefully enough to streak consistently and I've never had longer than 3-streaks.)

edit: fixed a typo

[svendre]

DEHu is legit freakin hard. Hu is hard, DE physical fighters are super hard. I passed on DEHu during tourney while I was playing Nemelex's Choice combos because it was too hard for my streak. I just started a local DEHu game and died at xl8. On my 2nd try I started with javelins instead of a bow, and found a D:1 venom dagger and a D:2 Vehumet who gave me good spells, so was able to get to XL11 with a comfortable blaster character, but that was very lucky. It takes a brave man to try DEHu on a streak.

I found this odd because for me, the hunter background feels like one of the easiest, if not the easiest starting background. On a DE, I guess I still wouldn't take bows. I'd take hand-crossbow even despite any aptitude issues. So basically it plays like: snipe stuff early on, then start saving ammo whenever you can. Often I'll shoot a sleeping monster with just one bolt then finish it off some other way (also to conserve ammo). When it comes to ogres, or stuff that can mangle you in melee, it really saves you. Basically the hand-crossbow works like a nice crutch until you get the build off the ground with whatever else you want to make. If you find fire or hexes, inner flame becomes useful, conjure flame is good, confuse.. etc. etc.

I agree a pure melee build at the start would be tough. A spell casting start is of course pretty good on DE.. but then you know, there's these critters that just may resist your tactics. It's quite nice to get those bolt snipe shots off and have a non-resistable, maximum range attack to compliment just about any spell tactics... It's really nice.

I recall them being easier in the past, but I can't remember exactly why. I think it had to do with using spells to brand your bow to whatever brand was most effective for the current monster being faced. That was awhile ago.


I was going to start one after reading this, but I've already done DEHu, so I guess I'll do a fighter or maybe even a berserker for lolz.