Can we tone down the number of two-headed ogres
And there is no point in generating them in Depths/Vaults/etc. at all imo, ogre mage pack or not.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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duvessa wrote:And there is no point in generating them in Depths/Vaults/etc. at all imo, ogre mage pack or not.
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PseudoLoneWolf wrote:How about a half-headed ogre?
"This one looks a little slow..."
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Siegurt wrote:Two-headed ogrecrawl, all two headed ogres all the time!
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rigrig wrote:Siegurt wrote:Two-headed ogrecrawl, all two headed ogres all the time!
Even better: N-headed ogrecrawl, where N is the depth. (Except maybe Lair+branches, which have N-headed hydras)
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<causative> !lg * depths s=ckiller
<Sequell> 22854 games for * (depths): 1452x a stone giant, 1059x a caustic shrike, 939x a frost giant, 888x a spriggan air mage, 802x a fire giant, 800x an ettin, 710x a deep troll, 661x a spark wasp, 620x a deep troll earth mage, 606x a very ugly thing, 507x a lich, 489x a tengu reaver, 489x a spriggan berserker, 482x an ice dragon, 480x a spriggan defender, 475x a vampire knight, 431x a titan, 425x a
<Sequell> fire dragon, 396x an iron troll, 387x a juggernaut, 354x quitting, 299x a yaktaur, 290x a deep troll shaman, 263x a yaktaur captain, 230x a golden dragon, 185x an iron giant, 181x an octopode crusher, 180x a pandemonium lord, 174x a storm dragon, 173x a crystal guardian, 173x an ancient lich, 152x a hell knight, 151x an ugly thing, 147x Sojobo, 143x a shadow dragon, 138x a quicksilver dragon,
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rigrig wrote:Siegurt wrote:Two-headed ogrecrawl, all two headed ogres all the time!
Even better: N-headed ogrecrawl, where N is the depth. (Except maybe Lair+branches, which have N-headed hydras)
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354x quitting
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Hellmonk wrote:Seems misleading to post raw monster kill statistics without accounting for the quantity of each type of monster generated. There are significantly more deep trolls than liches generated in depths in a typical game, for example.
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Plantissue wrote:What is going on here?354x quitting
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Hellmonk wrote:Seems misleading to post raw monster kill statistics without accounting for the quantity of each type of monster generated. There are significantly more deep trolls than liches generated in depths in a typical game, for example.
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The argument that popcorn monsters do something sometimes is not very compelling, generally speaking.
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As far as getting frequent kills goes, don't worry, anything they get replaced with will also frequently get kills. In fact, said replacement is basically guaranteed to get more kills than deep trolls did
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you can see this by how similar the profiles are of a two-headed ogres and deep troll
Deep trolls really don't get many kills at all in Depths; they are quite far down in the ranking (14th) for e.g. players in 0.21+ with exactly 1-3 runes in depths
<causative> !lg * depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3 s=ckiller
<Sequell> 4058 games for * (depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3): 307x a caustic shrike, 217x a stone giant, 174x a frost giant, 161x a spriggan air mage, 150x a spark wasp, 133x a very ugly thing, 125x a fire giant, 119x an ettin, 105x a juggernaut, 104x a deep troll earth mage, 101x a lich, 98x a deep troll, 91x a tengu reaver, 86x a spriggan defender, 85x a vampire knight, 84x a spriggan berserker, 75x
<Sequell> an iron troll, 74x an ice dragon, 69x a titan, 68x a fire dragon, 60x quitting, 47x an ancient lich, 45x a deep troll shaman, 44x a yaktaur captain, 42x Sojobo, 41x a golden dragon, 41x a storm dragon, 39x a pandemonium lord, 39x a yaktaur, 38x a shadow dragon, 38x a quicksilver dragon, 32x a draconian, 31x a crystal guardian, 30x a tentacled monstrosity, 28x Mennas, 28x a battlesphere, 24x Jory,
<causative> !lg * depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3 s=ckiller ckiller~~spriggan
<Sequell> 363 games for * (depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3 ckiller~~spriggan): 161x a spriggan air mage, 86x a spriggan defender, 84x a spriggan berserker, 14x a spriggan rider, 9x a spriggan air mage (illusionary), 4x a spriggan defender (illusionary), 3x a spriggan berserker (illusionary), a spriggan druid, a spriggan defender zombie
<causative> !lg * depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3 s=ckiller ckiller~~troll
<Sequell> 341 games for * (depths cv>=0.21-a urune>=1 urune<=3 ckiller~~troll): 104x a deep troll earth mage, 98x a deep troll, 75x an iron troll, 45x a deep troll shaman, 4x a deep troll (illusionary), 3x a deep troll shaman (illusionary), 3x a deep troll earth mage (illusionary), 3x a deep troll earth mage simulacrum, 2x a deep troll simulacrum, 2x a deep troll shaman zombie, an iron troll simulacrum, a
<Sequell> troll
What's more important than their precise ranking is the fact they make for bad Depths monsters when fought individually in that Branch
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gammafunk wrote:anything they get replaced with will also frequently get kills
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Berder wrote:Do you think tengu reavers and vampire knights are popcorn?
Berder wrote:How dangerous they are when fought individually is irrelevant, because they are a pack monster. They get mighted and hasted in their pack.
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Deep trolls are just too weak for Depths
duvessa wrote:In Depths? Yes.Berder wrote:Do you think tengu reavers and vampire knights are popcorn?
You don't have to fight the whole pack at once.How dangerous they are when fought individually is irrelevant, because they are a pack monster. They get mighted and hasted in their pack.
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gammafunk wrote:Deep troll packs as a whole can sometimes be dangerous, but they are really not all that dangerous. If deep troll packs become somewhat more dangerous than they are now, we can adjust their frequency of placement accordingly, should that actually be necessary. Depths is just in no way shape or form in need of another monster that's so completely trivial to fight by itself, certainly not one that common.
bel wrote:the claim that "you don't have to fight them all at once" is simply ridiculous: using that logic, there is no point to any pack in the game.
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duvessa wrote:I think this is pretty much true for slow packs, and to a lesser extent for melee packs in general. Centaur packs work fine, but when was the last time you were actually forced to fight multiple yaks at once?bel wrote:the claim that "you don't have to fight them all at once" is simply ridiculous: using that logic, there is no point to any pack in the game.
Now, if deep troll shamans could cast haste other before any deep trolls come into view, that would be a different story, but, well, they can't. And I think I'd rather increase the natural speed of deep trolls than add more out-of-LOS monster casting.
Ugly things are usually more dangerous when they don't generate in a pack because being in a pack slows them down to the point where a normal speed player can outrun them. Same goes for speed 10 yaks etc. when playing a naga/barachian.
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bel wrote: When you say things like this (completely seriously), people don't realize that you're making a very radical claim, similar to "the game is won by Lair" meme. People shrug it off as duvessa being duvessa.
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