CiP: Vp of Kiku, weapon advice

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 16:53 by mattlistener

I'm trying a melee Necromancer of Kiku build. Main plan is to kill stuff with "Pain/Vampiric Draining/Regeneration/Agony/Dispel Undead" (credit: cerebovssquire) until I can Pain brand a weapon. I don't have access to any undead ally spells yet anyway. This will be a 3-4 rune game.

I've just picked up a Staff of Death so I'm pausing for thought since I don't feel that confident about weapon choices, especially related to Staves. I had been alternating between these weapons depending on circumstances:
+1 War Axe
+1 Short Sword of Venom
...and then switching to casting Vampiric Draining once I have enough missing HP to justify it. Ring of Magical Power means a lot of casts. Confusion, Wands of Acid/Iceblast, and Bat Form are my fallback plans.
(Edit: found the +2 hand axe of Truncation {pain, Int+2})

I also have a +5 Vampiric Spear but since spear base damage is so low, and when I have enough health missing for the Vampiric brand to matter I'm casting Vampiric Draining instead, it doesn't seem to have a role.

So, what recommendations do folks have on my approach to melee going forward? Specifically, is it worth training up some Staves/Evo and using Staff of Death as my melee weapon? (Bolstered by the enhancement to Vampiric Draining and future Necromantic combat casts, and the possibility of pain branding a lajatang sometime before the orb run?)

Note: I'm keeping in mind that necromantic melee damage is partially effective against rN+ enemies.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.22-a0-609-gfedc9ff77b (webtiles) character file. Shargos the Merchant of Misery (VpIE) Turns: 15514, Time: 02:23:27 Health: 76/76 AC: 8 Str: 7 XL: 10 Next: 89% Magic: 13/26 EV: 19 Int: 21 God: Kikubaaqudgha [**....] Gold: 665 SH: 0 Dex: 15 Spells: 5/18 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis + N - staff of death rCold + . . Gourm . (no shield) rNeg + + + Faith . I - +0 steam dragon scales rPois + Spirit . C - +1 helmet rElec . Reflect . j - +0 cloak rCorr . Harm . (no gloves) MR +.... (no boots) Stlth +++++..... (no amulet) HPRegen 0.11/turn p - ring of magical power MPRegen 0.20/turn J - +1 ring of evasion @: regenerating slowly A: fangs 3, see invisible, unbreathing a: Bat Form, Receive Corpses, Renounce Religion You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Kikubaaqudgha. Kikubaaqudgha is pleased with you. You are near bloodless. You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels. You have also visited: Ossuary. You have collected 687 gold pieces. You have spent 22 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand Weapons a - a +1 short sword of venom b - a +0 hunting sling q - a spear t - a +5 vampiric spear y - a +1 war axe L - a trident Missiles k - 36 sling bullets l - 212 arrows E - 6 tomahawks (quivered) Armour d - a +0 robe f - a +3 leather armour j - a +0 cloak (worn) C - a +1 helmet (worn) I - +0 steam dragon scales (worn) Magical Staves N - an uncursed staff of death (weapon) Jewellery p - a ring of magical power (left hand) J - a +1 ring of evasion (right hand) K - an uncursed ring of protection from cold Wands g - a wand of acid (2) s - a wand of iceblast (18) F - a wand of polymorph (7) Scrolls e - a scroll of identify h - a scroll of amnesia m - 3 scrolls of teleportation o - 4 scrolls of fog v - 6 scrolls of remove curse H - a scroll of blinking M - a scroll of enchant weapon Potions c - 17 potions of blood i - 4 potions of curing n - a potion of cancellation r - 2 potions of magic u - a potion of invisibility w - a yellow potion x - a viscous cyan potion z - a golden potion A - a potion of flight B - a viscous puce potion D - a ruby potion G - 3 bubbling black potions Skills: + Level 5.8 Fighting - Level 2.1 Short Blades - Level 8.8 Dodging - Level 7.4 Stealth - Level 4.6 Spellcasting - Level 0.6 Conjurations - Level 5.5 Hexes - Level 4.5 Charms - Level 9.6 Necromancy - Level 4.1 Ice Magic - Level 3.0 Evocations You have 5 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Freeze Ice ###. 1% 1 None b - Throw Frost Conj/Ice ##.... 6% 2 #...... c - Confuse Hex ####.... 3% 3 ##..... o - Ozocubu's Armour Chrm/Ice ###..... 5% 3 ##..... p - Pain Necr #### 1% 1 None v - Vampiric Draining Necr ######.... 1% 3 ##..... Your spell library contains the following spells: Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger Summon Ice Beast Ice/Summ ##...... 43% 4 ####... Sublimation of Blood Necr ######.... 1% 2 #...... Corpse Rot Necr N/A 1% 2 #...... Throw Icicle Conj/Ice ##...... 38% 4 ####... Confusing Touch Hex ####.. 1% 1 None Metabolic Englaciation Hex/Ice ####...... 38% 5 ######. Petrify Tmut/Erth #....... 75% 4 ####... Gell's Gravitas Tloc #......... 34% 3 ##..... Yara's Violent Unravell Hex/Tmut ###....... 69% 5 ######. Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (8/15) Temple (1/1) D:4 Lair (1/6) D:8 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Hepliaklqana Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Qazlal Ru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Wu Jian Xom Yredelemnul Zin The Shining One Shops: D:6 * D:8 ( Annotations: D:2 1 runed door D:3 exclusion: door D:4 exclusion: moth of wrath D:6 exclusions: orc, 2 orc priests and orc warrior Lair:1 exclusions: electric eel and 4 more exclusions Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You heal slowly. You have razor-sharp teeth. You have supernaturally acute eyesight. (SInv) You can survive without breathing. Message History Aiming: Freeze (safe; 1% risk of failure) Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - oklob plant Aim: an oklob plant (almost destroyed, confused) You freeze the oklob plant. You destroy the oklob plant! Kikubaaqudgha accepts your kill. Training target 3.0 for Evocations reached! Your Evocations skill increases to level 3! M - a scroll of enchant weapon You see here a long jewelled staff. N - a long jewelled staff Okay, then. Wield which item (- for none, * to show all)? (? for menu, Esc to quit) N - an uncursed staff of death (weapon) v - 6 scrolls of remove curse (gained 1) You see here a quarterstaff. You now have 645 gold pieces (gained 15). You now have 665 gold pieces (gained 20). You have 665 gold pieces. Char dumped successfully. .#.. #............%...##.r... .#..######......#.%..##...####.## ...............#...##.#...###..## ................................. ................................. ................................. ............#.#######............ ............#########......)..... ............##).@..#............. P#....####..##.[.##.#.....####### ##..####...##...####.....####.## #......#...#########............ #.......#...###.##.#......#..... ........#....#......'.....##..... .#..................#.....######. #.......##...#............###.#.+ ##..#####....#......#............ There are no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures 2 two-headed ogres (D:8) Nergalle (D:8) An oklob plant (Lair:1) A black mamba (Lair:1) A komodo dragon (Lair:1) 3 blink frogs (Lair:1) A wyvern (D:5) 5 yaks A steam dragon (D:8) 2 porcupines (Lair:1) An orc warrior (D:8) 3 ice beasts An ogre (D:7) A black bear (D:8) 2 phantoms 2 centaurs A crocodile (Lair:1) 2 bullfrogs (D:8) A wyvern zombie (D:6) A gnoll sergeant (D:7) 2 scorpions (D:8) 3 howler monkeys (D:8) 3 crimson imps (D:5) 5 jellies (D:8) A gnoll shaman (D:7) 4 orc priests 3 hounds 6 orc wizards A centaur skeleton (D:4) An iguana (D:7) 3 worker ants A big kobold zombie (Ossuary) 9 mummies 2 worker ant zombies 11 gnolls 9 adders A shadow imp (D:7) 6 oozes An adder skeleton (D:8) 3 worms 3 dart slugs 24 orcs 4 ball pythons 7 bats 3 giant cockroaches 3 gnoll zombies 13 goblins 9 hobgoblins 2 jackals (D:2) 2 quokkas 3 frilled lizards A goblin zombie (D:6) 4 hobgoblin zombies (Ossuary) 12 kobolds A kobold zombie (Ossuary) A leopard gecko skeleton (D:7) 2 orc zombies A quokka zombie (D:8) 11 rats A plant (Lair:1) 215 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) 8 fungi (D:8) 5 plants 13 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 228 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Shargos the Vampire Ice Elementalist began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3 442 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 12/19 MP: 3/5 1467 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 25/25 MP: 4/6 1971 | D:2 | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour 2188 | D:2 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh. 2221 | D:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Charms 2436 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 31/31 MP: 0/7 2748 | D:2 | Found a runed door. 3392 | D:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting 3818 | D:3 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 4235 | D:4 | Noticed a centaur 4516 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 37/37 MP: 2/8 4656 | D:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4656 | D:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4656 | D:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4698 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 4760 | D:4 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4850 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades 4955 | D:4 | Killed a centaur 5069 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 5193 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha 5266 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 39/44 MP: 9/9 5324 | D:4 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 5613 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 5692 | D:5 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 5777 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy 5819 | D:5 | Noticed a wyvern 5830 | D:5 | Killed a wyvern 5830 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth 5830 | D:5 | Reached skill level 2 in Necromancy 5830 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 17/50 MP: 10/10 6096 | D:5 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost 6233 | D:4 | Noticed a moth of wrath 6236 | D:4 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 6416 | D:4 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 6840 | D:5 | Reached skill level 3 in Necromancy 7267 | D:6 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 7291 | D:6 | Found a sand-covered staircase. 7296 | Ossuary | Entered an ossuary 8798 | D:6 | Reached * piety under Kikubaaqudgha 8798 | D:6 | Identified Kikubaaqudgha's Collected Works on Stolen Souls (Kikubaaqudgha gifted it to you on level 6 of the Dungeon) 8798 | D:6 | Received a gift from Kikubaaqudgha 8804 | D:6 | Learned a level 3 spell: Vampiric Draining 8806 | D:6 | Learned a level 1 spell: Pain 8821 | D:6 | Found Rusone's Assorted Antiques. 8828 | D:6 | Bought a viscous puce potion for 22 gold pieces 8908 | D:6 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 34/58 MP: 11/11 9073 | D:6 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 9522 | D:6 | Reached skill level 4 in Necromancy 9651 | D:6 | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru. 10047 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Necromancy 10780 | D:7 | Reached skill level 6 in Necromancy 11080 | D:7 | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal. 11081 | D:7 | Noticed an air elemental 11197 | D:7 | Reached skill level 7 in Necromancy 11558 | D:7 | Found an ornate altar of the Wu Jian Council. 12155 | D:8 | Found Askaul's Weapon Boutique. 12162 | D:8 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 63/64 MP: 12/12 12169 | D:8 | Noticed a two-headed ogre 12174 | D:8 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 12203 | D:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 13163 | D:8 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 13181 | D:8 | Reached ** piety under Kikubaaqudgha 13196 | D:8 | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse 13347 | D:8 | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes 13714 | D:8 | Noticed a two-headed ogre 13727 | D:8 | Killed a two-headed ogre 13727 | D:8 | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes 13899 | D:8 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 13971 | D:8 | Killed a two-headed ogre 13971 | D:8 | Reached skill level 8 in Necromancy 13971 | D:8 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 71/71 MP: 17/17 14260 | D:8 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 14444 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 14453 | Lair:1 | Noticed Nergalle 14495 | D:8 | Killed Nergalle 14581 | Lair:1 | Noticed a black mamba 14740 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations 14740 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 14740 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 9 in Necromancy 15040 | Lair:1 | Killed a black mamba 15448 | Lair:1 | Noticed an oklob plant 15500 | Lair:1 | Killed an oklob plant Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | ---------------+-------------------------------+----- Stealth | 4 5 7 | 7.4 Dodging | 3 4 7 8 | 8.8 Charms | 2 3 4 | 4.5 Fighting | 1 2 3 4 5 | 5.8 Short Blades | 2 | 2.1 Necromancy | 2 3 7 8 9 | 9.6 Ice Magic | 4 | 4.1 Spellcasting | 4 | 4.6 Hexes | 5 | 5.5 Evocations | 3 | 3.0 Conjurations | | 0.6 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Dagger | 42 | | | || 42 Unarmed | 12 | | | || 12 Bite | 3 | 5 | 49 | 19 || 76 Short sword | 27 | 40 | 141 | 35 || 243 War axe | | | 242 | 85 || 327 Fire: Hunting sling | | 3 | 3 | 3 || 9 Throw: Stone | 1 | | | || 1 Tomahawk | | | 10 | 5 || 15 Cast: Freeze | 42 | 57 | 35 | 11 || 145 Ozocubu's Armour | 2 | 6 | 46 | 10 || 64 Throw Frost | | | 2 | || 2 Vampiric Draining | | | 34 | 25 || 59 Pain | | | 23 | || 23 Confuse | | | 2 | 12 || 14 Invok: Receive Corpses | | | 1 | || 1 Evoke: Wand | | 4 | 5 | 4 || 13 Use: Scroll | 5 | 7 | 13 | || 25 Potion | 4 | 7 | 25 | 6 || 42 Stab: Sleeping | 3 | 16 | 17 | 1 || 37 Distracted | 1 | | 1 | || 2 Confused | | | 2 | 5 || 7 Armor: Leather armour | 32 | 14 | 144 | || 190 Robe | 3 | | | || 3 Steam dragon scal | | | 32 | 47 || 79 Dodge: Dodged | 97 | 39 | 347 | 93 || 576 Table legend: A = Spawn XP B = Non-spawn XP C = Spawn XP percentage of total XP D = Spawn monster count E = Non-spawn monster count F = Spawn count percentage of total count G = Total turns spent on level A B C D E F G +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+--------- Total | 0 | 10402 | 0.0 | 0 | 214 | 0.0 | 15514 +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+--------- D:1 | 0 | 47 | 0.0 | 0 | 29 | 0.0 | 2086 D:2 | 0 | 60 | 0.0 | 0 | 15 | 0.0 | 1071 D:3 | 0 | 81 | 0.0 | 0 | 27 | 0.0 | 1236 D:4 | 0 | 264 | 0.0 | 0 | 16 | 0.0 | 1418 D:5 | 0 | 728 | 0.0 | 0 | 15 | 0.0 | 1318 D:6 | 0 | 494 | 0.0 | 0 | 20 | 0.0 | 1999 D:7 | 0 | 787 | 0.0 | 0 | 29 | 0.0 | 1383 D:8 | 0 | 4373 | 0.0 | 0 | 34 | 0.0 | 2711 Lair:1 | 0 | 3389 | 0.0 | 0 | 13 | 0.0 | 697 Ossuary | 0 | 179 | 0.0 | 0 | 16 | 0.0 | 1460 +---------+---------+-------+---------+---------+-------+---------

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 17:12 by Stonar

Pick a weapon, and train it. It kind of doesn't matter what you pick, if I'm being totally honest, you just need to pick something soon, if that's the plan. Staff of death is a garbage weapon, especially considering that you'll get a free pain weapon later. (Now, if there's a lajatang lying around, it might be a decent stopgap until you pain brand, but you haven't listed that in your assets.) You can presumably kill enough stuff with your necromancy spells by now that you should invest in a weapon school if that's the plan going forward. Your best weapon right now (at 0 skill) is almost definitely the vampiric spear, but I tend to love polearms unconditionally (and they synergize well with animate dead.) Sure, a spear isn't the best weapon, but until you get 6 or 8 skill into a school, the difference will be pretty small compared to the war axe. I might wait until I find whether I had shoals (which basically guarantees demon tridents,) but Kiku worshippers are very well suited to "necromancy up a few simulacrum/zombies/scarabs, and jab with a pain polearm."

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 18:23 by mattlistener

Done. Polearms have synergy with Confusion too, had forgotten about that.

Still seems odd to me that a character who already has 9 in Necromancy and plans for lots more, and is killing things via a combination of Necromancy damage spells and hitting them, doesn't see a Necromancy enhancer staff as an attractive option.

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 18:47 by Stonar

Oh, sorry, I might have been unclear - enhancers are always useful if you're casting the spell that matches. But it takes 5 auts to switch weapons, so if you switch from casting spells to hitting things with a weapon, you should switch weapons. A pain branded weapon also scales with your necromancy skill, and a real weapon will do way more damage than an enhancer staff. It's not that you shouldn't use the staff, it's just that you shouldn't invest in the skill to use it as a weapon.

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 19:12 by mattlistener

In my case, I'm opening with a weapon while at full health (so effectively a +5 spear -- Vampiric only triggers with missing HP), and then switching to casting spells.

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 19:41 by mattlistener

Huh... add this to the list of assets:

the +2 hand axe of Truncation {pain, Int+2}

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 20:07 by Stonar

It's almost never worth switching weapon types once you've invested into one, to the point where you probably shouldn't be equipping new weapons/wasting ID scrolls on weapon classes that aren't the one you've picked. So... if you've picked a weapon type, throw the hand axe away and never look back. If you haven't, feel free to use the hand axe as a stop gap until you find a battleaxe/broad axe to pain brand.

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 21:54 by njvack

0-skill handaxe of pain is probably better than most non-pain weapons of your skilled class?

But generally yeah, don't wield-id randart weapons of types you're not planning to use, you'll just wind up with a -7 distortion flail or something, and you have better things to do with ID scrolls until the midgame.

wielding off-class randarts:Crawl::immediately quaffing from fountains:Nethack

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 22:13 by Plantissue

I don't really see why it is needed to pick a weapon and train it yet? Train more fighting for more weapon damage perhaps, and just hold onto the +5 spear till you find a great weapon that you think can training can be invested in. What is it that must be hit by a weapon that you cannot wait for, that cannot have freeze or vampiric drain casted on them later? A pack of wraiths? An ice dragon? A summoned demon in orc? He doesn't have to invested in a weapon skill right now.

Tuesday, 10th July 2018, 22:19 by Stonar

It's going to get harder and harder to kill stuff with "Only Necromancy." If the backup plan is "Kill stuff with a weapon," then you should start training that weapon (and defenses) once "Only Necromancy kills everything." Of course, Kiku helps with that plan to the point where there's no NEED to use a weapon, but the express goal is "Kill stuff with a pain branded weapon." Why wait? Train a weapon, start killing stuff with it.

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 08:00 by Airwolf

Pain short blades are great, too: allies setup distraction stabs.

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 13:24 by mattlistener

Have trained polearms, cleared Shoals, no Demon Trident. What's the next-best pain brand target for a 3-rune game? 1dNecromancy isn't SO massive that the base weapon damage doesn't matter at all...

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 14:13 by nago

Well actually 1DNecro is good enough - especially in combination with allies - to make any weapon good.

A spear is excellent to pain - better than a normal trident as it has a min-delay of 0.5 instead of 0.6. At some point - crypt, depths - you most probably will get a d.trident to use against pain-immune target.

Otherwise, get a glaive: if well enchanted it will kill anything no matter the immunities.

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 14:29 by mattlistener

Thanks. Only allies so far are simulacra. I should remember to do Corpse Delivery more often.

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 14:35 by nago

Simulacrum on a Dragon or Troll corpse - but missing that also giants - will kill anything ridiculously easily. Whenever the situation isn't trivial, use it.

Wednesday, 11th July 2018, 15:09 by VeryAngryFelid

Actually 1dNecro is so powerful that base damage does not matter because low damage comes with high speed usually. If you ever used quickblade with high slaying, you know that. As far as I know pain brand works exactly like slaying (for eligible targets of course) and it is very hard to get slaying above 10 unlike necro. I try to get 2 good weapons as Ne usually, one quick with pain and another with high base damage for orbs of fire and alike

Saturday, 14th July 2018, 02:41 by mattlistener

Overwhelmed by the welcoming committee at the start of Spider and killed.

I should have done a Deliver Corpses / Simulacrum and hope for a high roll on the number made, that might have pulled me through.

Monday, 16th July 2018, 13:41 by njvack

I don't know your exact situation but "go upstairs and come back when you're better-prepared" might have been a survivable plan too.

Wednesday, 18th July 2018, 04:58 by tabstorm

the necronomicon is actually an underrated choice since the adding of infest. once you can cast that at like, 20%, you can just ride a cloud of scarabs to zot:5 without a ton of trouble. I don't think you should make any particular considerations for weapon type when trying to pick a Pain target, just pick one with a basetype you'd use on your character anyway and brand it.

Friday, 20th July 2018, 14:48 by njvack

Necronomicon is not a bad book at all (really, only necromut is underwhelming), it's more that when you get access to Kiku's capstone gift, pain brand gives a big power increase right now while the book gives you a big power increase later.

Thursday, 26th July 2018, 19:03 by akaean

But if you already have a pain branded weapon- like that hand axe there. You are getting comparatively little out of Kiku's Pain brand gift. Also more things start resisting Pain brand the further into the game you go, and you get more use out of it the earlier you use it. By the time you actually manage to find that elusive quick blade or daemon trident... there may not be a lot of pain resistant monsters left. And if you do find that elusive quick blade, and you have dreams of doing extended, you are almost certainly better off rolling for an electrocution brand on that quick blade which isn't universally resisted in the endgame.

CiP: Vp of Kiku, weapon advice

CiP: Vp of Kiku, weapon advice

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