Abyssal Knights (was: Merchant, a Gozag zealot background)

[Rast]

Zealot is because it's the only realistic way to have Lucy within the first half or more of the game.

Besides, you know, generating Lugonu altars in D and Temple.

[Tumalu]

Sure, and you can just plan on finding a Jiyva altar before Lair, too!

[ion_frigate]

Okay, so I can understand (and don't feel like analyzing) all the arguments about why Jiyva shouldn't be allowed in the early game.

But what on earth is up with Lugonu? The fact that you can start with her from turn one indicates that she's not ill-suited to the early game, so why is it that you only rarely get her altars in Temple? In the days of abundant zealots this (sort of) made thematic sense. But now, zealots need a lot more justification than flavor, and I don't see how an Abyssal Knight is significantly different from a Fighter or Gladiator who finds an early altar.

Basically, is there any gameplay reason for Abyssal Knights to still exist? It makes a lot more sense to get rid of them and just make Lugonu an ecumenical god. The occasional corrupted Temple could stay, I suppose.

[Shard1697]

Because starting in the abyss is cool

this forum undervalues coolness factor

[VeryAngryFelid]

Because starting in the abyss is cool

this forum undervalues coolness factor

Really? Isn't it cool to be a wizard or scald of Lugonu? Because this is what we miss by not having Lugonu in typical Temple.

[duvessa]

There's no reason you can't keep Abyssal Knights and make Lugonu a Temple god.

[njvack]

For what it's worth: I'd ditch AK as a start and instead of altars, I'd have altar-depth portals to Abyss — these portals would take you to an Abyss following current AK Abyss rules and with an altar within LOS. On joining Lugonu, you'd get one free use of "Depart the Abyss" or enough piety to do so.

Entering Abyss is, I think, cooler than starting in it.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Standard "You will not be able to return immediately. Are you sure you want to enter portal?" prompt would look dangerous to unspoiled players. Probably we might have Lugonu instantly teleport PC to Abyss after joining. "I will show you Abyss" or something. Sometimes that might be used to avoid a dangerous monster like currently you can use Beogh.

[cjo]

Perhaps we could have a special altar-specific portal through which the player can sense the presence of an altar or gets some other hint. A portal taking a player near an altar would already be different than regular abyss portals.

[njvack]

Yeah, you'd want some kind of hint that it's not a normal Abyss portal.

  Code:

A portal to the Abyss, containing an altar to Lugonu

[Leafsnail]

Jiyva is a weird one because they're like a living fossil of horrible design that continues to exist because almost no-one ever picks them and therefore no-one cares. I'd support moving Jiyva to the temple just to raise awareness of how badly they need a rework.

[Shtopit]

Lugonu, and, generally, non-temple gods, could simply always generate their altars out of the Temple, and in vaults that don't comprise other altars, maybe with some scenery or appropriate monsters, but in the same dungeon floor range as normal generation of altars outside the temple. Et voilà, the flavour is saved.

[Leafsnail]

Okay, so I can understand (and don't feel like analyzing) all the arguments about why Jiyva shouldn't be allowed in the early game.

But what on earth is up with Lugonu? The fact that you can start with her from turn one indicates that she's not ill-suited to the early game, so why is it that you only rarely get her altars in Temple? In the days of abundant zealots this (sort of) made thematic sense. But now, zealots need a lot more justification than flavor, and I don't see how an Abyssal Knight is significantly different from a Fighter or Gladiator who finds an early altar.

Basically, is there any gameplay reason for Abyssal Knights to still exist? It makes a lot more sense to get rid of them and just make Lugonu an ecumenical god. The occasional corrupted Temple could stay, I suppose.

I don't think this argument holds. Wizards are similar to any other character that randomly finds a Book of Minor Magic on the floor - that doesn't mean they don't have a unique gameplay niche. Lugonu can be seen as the AK's starting kit, and choosing whether to use another background's starting kit when you find it can be an interesting decision (particularly one with such a high opportunity cost as a god). I think it would actually be a negative to remove one of the only sources of variance when it comes to temple gods, and to make that choice even more static.

[Sprucery]

Lugonu, and, generally, non-temple gods, could simply always generate their altars out of the Temple, and in vaults that don't comprise other altars, maybe with some scenery or appropriate monsters, but in the same dungeon floor range as normal generation of altars outside the temple. Et voilà, the flavour is saved.

I agree. Also imo the Temple should contain fewer altars, and the guaranteed altar zone should be extended to D:15. This way choosing a god would be more of a decision but yet if you absolutely want a certain god you can get it, if you're willing to wait.

[bhauth]

1) remove Abyssal Knights
2) guarantee an Abyss entrance between D2 and D11
3) the first time a player enters the Abyss (by any means) put them in a Lugonu altar vault

[ololoev]

I agree. Also imo the Temple should contain fewer altars, and the guaranteed altar zone should be extended to D:15. This way choosing a god would be more of a decision but yet if you absolutely want a certain god you can get it, if you're willing to wait.

I suggest to remove Temle at all and spread guaranteed altar zone to say 4-15. You will think a lot whether you should pick Sif at d:5 or wait for Vehu until d:13.

[njvack]

This is getting OT, but I think Temple is good, if for no other reason than providing a milestone to new players.

[VeryAngryFelid]

This is getting OT, but I think Temple is good, if for no other reason than providing a milestone to new players.

Temple might contain less gods, 3-4.

[RoGGa]

1. I like the idea of a portal to the Abyss and landing in a mini-vault with the Lugonu altar, and an exit portal close by (as is currently the case). That way, the player if forced to explore the Abyss a tad by doing a spiral around the mini-vault.
2. As for the temple, I think it should generate no more than half of the altars.
3. The new ghost vaults could also contain an altar of the God the ghost served at time of death.