Tomb 3 strategy without ranged attack?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Ok, some time ago I read previous threads about Tomb in late versions without stairdancing possible.
I cannot find the threads now but I remember thinking "ok, so it's CBlink or just blink scrolls, aura of abjuration, TSO, potion of lignification, scrolls of immolation, rF++ etc. it should not be too hard"... And then I tried it on my own...
As GrFi of TSO in maxed GDS with javelins of penetration at min delay and with Aura of Abjuration it was harder than any Hell/Pan floor but never in danger of death. Gr is immune to flaying and has partial protection from torment, together with heal on kills worked wonderfully.
And then my next game proved that I have no idea what I am doing. MiFi of TSO in dragon king armour (basically +9 GDS with MR+), no cleaving, no Aura of Abjuration, no ranged attack (too boring, decided to see how lesser beckoning works instead, got really disappointed despite Int 17 and Translocations 15+), no evocations (I hate the skill).
I used multiple scrolls of blinking, tried fighting in normal form, tried quaffing multiple potions of lignification, potions of magic, spammed maxed Cleansing Flame, immolation, lamp of fire, lesser beckoning, fog. Those annoying flays almost killed me (treeform is not immune), they kept looking at me while priests kept smiting me and death curse summons and scorpions kept surrounding me. It took 3 attempts to clear the floor (never teleported, just retreated via escape hatch)

So what would be your strategy for Tomb 3 without ranged attack assuming you don't have dozen of scrolls of fog?

[Rast]

Gozag plus 9000 gold works well. Ironically, it's better on orb tomb run, because you'll capture pan lords and they will beat up the greater mummies.

How hard did you train TSO invocations?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Gozag plus 9000 gold works well. Ironically, it's better on orb tomb run, because you'll capture pan lords and they will beat up the greater mummies.

Nice coincidence, nago suggested to use Gozag for GnNe in neighbor thread
What about other gods? I am looking for more universal ways.

How hard did you train TSO invocations?

Maxed, 27. Both characters were "Bringers of the Law" at that point. Those Flaying Ghosts were not in range of Cleansing Flame because they were afraid to enter flaming clouds. Even without clouds, I tried fighting while standing on the escape hatches and then the door is at the edge of view, that's lots of time to get flayed.
Should I fight near doors (so everyone coming is in range of Cleansing Flame) and then use scroll of blinking when needed?

[Plantissue]

I've done new tomb with a HOFi of TSO with a broad axe and loads of tele scroll and and C Blink casted at 1%. I find that the intial drop down attracts most of the monsters so, when you teleport around you should *hopefully* teleport somewhere where there are less monsters so you can kill a greater mummy before having to read a scroll of tele or Controlled Blink away again. I had loads of scrolls of teleporting to teleport between the rooms nearly as soon as I had teleported and casted loads of C Blink to blink away from large nunbers and to blink and stand on top of an exit, using the broad axe to kill the stupidly massive numbers of death scarabs to conserve and recover MP. And so I "stair danced" up and down the one way stairs to Tomb 3 over and over again till the numbers finally fell to a minimal level. At one point I fell to **** piety so I went back to Hell (this was 0.20) to get max piety again to go round for another go. I still almost died several times, when the tele scroll deposited me somewhere dangerous, so I got lucky I guess.

I never saw a single flayed ghost if I remember correctly. I also tried TSO summon holy beings and tele + recall, but they seem to die almost immediately for whatever reason.
I lost a 14 rune character once because I decided that reading a silence scroll is a great idea. Losing god abilities make it not.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Also I lost a character once becuase I decided that reading a silence scroll is a great idea. it is not.

It's off topic in my own thread but you reminded me a game where my Og was casting Statue Form and then Silence to kill 1-2 greater mummy at a time. Eventually I pressed a wrong button and Silence was cast first, before Statue Form. I died to those scarabs after killing greater mummy (without rN+ they deal crazy damage to low AC species).

[Airwolf]

There's nothing wrong with retreating upstairs a few times. Note that it might make the next descent worse if you haven't killed a decent number of the monsters.

Zin's Recite is fun. Vitalization is useful to avoid some of the death curses. TSO's healing is probably better, though.

[CanOfWorms]

i just teleport ninja the rune

turns out you don't need to kill every single monster to get it

[Plantissue]

But...don't you just want to kill everything just prove you can? The need to slate your bloodlust? TSO bounds me to the eternal crusade against evil.

[Nebukadnezar]

- inv.: death scarabs (among others) cannot sinv
- good place for fog I : corner to the left/right where you start
- good place for fog II: read map. One layout has 10 (?) strutures with 1 empty tile + 1 door (where the big monsters start). Good place to read fog+even ambrosia.

Standing on an exit and repeating the whole thing is a fine strategy (like you did).

[tasonir]

If flaying is a major problem, statue form is immune to flay. Also provides torment resistance, but really I'd recommend having some way to blink/haste run away from the entrance as many times as possible. if you can't move quickly then teleports work too, although there's always some risk that you get a bad teleport after a bad teleport after a bad teleport...

[svendre]

Ok, some time ago I read previous threads about Tomb in late versions without stairdancing possible.
I cannot find the threads now but I remember thinking "ok, so it's CBlink or just blink scrolls, aura of abjuration, TSO, potion of lignification, scrolls of immolation, rF++ etc. it should not be too hard"... And then I tried it on my own...
As GrFi of TSO in maxed GDS with javelins of penetration at min delay and with Aura of Abjuration it was harder than any Hell/Pan floor but never in danger of death. Gr is immune to flaying and has partial protection from torment, together with heal on kills worked wonderfully.
And then my next game proved that I have no idea what I am doing. MiFi of TSO in dragon king armour (basically +9 GDS with MR+), no cleaving, no Aura of Abjuration, no ranged attack (too boring, decided to see how lesser beckoning works instead, got really disappointed despite Int 17 and Translocations 15+), no evocations (I hate the skill).
I used multiple scrolls of blinking, tried fighting in normal form, tried quaffing multiple potions of lignification, potions of magic, spammed maxed Cleansing Flame, immolation, lamp of fire, lesser beckoning, fog. Those annoying flays almost killed me (treeform is not immune), they kept looking at me while priests kept smiting me and death curse summons and scorpions kept surrounding me. It took 3 attempts to clear the floor (never teleported, just retreated via escape hatch)

So what would be your strategy for Tomb 3 without ranged attack assuming you don't have dozen of scrolls of fog?

You're missing the critical element in your TSO strategy, which is to use invocations to holy blast piles of creatures surrounding you, with strategic timing. And yeah, of course the minotaur would suck much more than the garg in tomb...the torment resistance alone would ensure that.

You also forgot to mention holy scrolls. I save them up for tomb. Using immolation then holy scroll together is quite effective. You also didn't mention scrolls of silence, which are yet another key item for a melee build to tackle tomb. Use silence scrolls very sparingly to suppress torment and smite (they'll be useless against demons in later branches anyhow), but it takes some practice to know when to risk using them and when not to as they will limit your escape options if things go badly.

Knowing when to hold back your AOE offenses, whether they be a spell, a scroll, evocable or penetration javelin is very important. Often you want to wait until you've taken significant damage before you unleash your larger attacks (and regain a lot of health at one time.) If you can whittle them down longer, your options will last longer. The tighter and bigger the pile you can assemble before an immolate+trigger, the better. The timing and tactics matter. Sometimes counter-intuitive things are beneficial such as not killing everything you see as quickly as possible. Think of those non-tormenting/smiting critters as walking heal/mana potions.

[edgefigaro]

1) Go down the stairs.
2) Get to the doorway.

Optional) Fight in the doorway. (this allows you to maximize AoE damge, but if you have soaked to much damage getting to the doorway it is skipped)

3) Retreat 1 space to cut half of your LoS, fight right behind the doorway (this is the melee spot)

4) Retreat to the stairs. Fight at the stairs.
5) Reset upstairs.

Repeat.

[Airwolf]

Silence: be very careful as it shuts down your spells (obviously), but also emergency scrolls and invocations. Silence is great when facing a few mummy priests or greater mummies, but is risky when facing a bunch in the open, like in most of Tomb:3. TSO and Makhleb mitigate this some.

Without TSO or Makhleb, be careful about killing too many of the top 3 mummies at once when low on HP: the death curses can kill you. I think I've died before from Sanctuary's holy blast triggering death curses.

[Majang]

Death's Door is nice to have in Tomb, but I guess if you are not under a voluntary conduct, if you'd had DD, you would also have some ranged spell options.

[DeathKnyte]

After reading this, I decided to make sure I take some pictures for the next character that would do The Tomb of Ancients level 3...

Since I started playing again, there are two descending hatches on the second floor; a Northern which drops on the West side, and a Southern which drops on the East side. Maybe it's random where you get dropped, but every time I've come down, this has been the pattern. In either case it makes little difference, as you will be in the same general area.

Concerning melee brute characters; I have a method consisting of three phases, with three critical positions. Things can get out of hand and escalate quickly in The Tomb of Ancients, so I have this personal check list to hopefully reduce any chance of "over tabbing" on my part.



Phase 1:

Spoiler: show

So in the above picture, I chose the Southern shaft on the second floor and I got dropped two squares above where my character is shown.

You can preempt the noise factor by a from of silence before taking the chute (risky if you're not confident in your characters' melee capabilities), and shorten the view range by an evocable ability or spell (darkness).

There will be either two types of monsters, Guardian Mummies, or Death Scarabs (again, since I have restarted playing). As a melee brute, you can quickly dispatch the mummies, but if it's scarabs, what I do is fall back to a corner in the top, where just three can hit me at a time, and I kill them there - away from the mob which is lurking South of the position. A scroll of fog is necessary here against scarabs, cause you will be slowed and it will take some time to kill them. You don't want anything else getting a line of sight on you. If you preempted with a form of silence, then the fog is not possible, so a potion of invisibility is my usual course - but you have to monitor what comes along to check out the commotion - then decide if you're going to make a break for an exit.

To kill these monsters, I will use some type of short blade (even if I'm trained in big weapons), in order to minimize the noise factor. But if silence is out, I use whatever gets the job done most efficiently.

Once I have handled this phase of the descent, I then make a decision as to which door I will go to, either West or East, depending on how much has come up from which direction in the South.




Phase 2:

Spoiler: show

In the above picture, I have chosen the Eastern door (and subsequent potential path of escape).

At this point, I am preparing for either a quick escape, if things have gone badly during the first phase - or I'm gauging how long I can hold out in a fight of attrition on the other side of the door, pending on what has noticed me or is wandering due to too much noise.

If I'm opting for the quick escape, then I'll also consider what kind of damage I can do in my wake; like lamps of fire, immolation scrolls, variuos spells, etc.. Because this is the location I will be launching these measures from, due to being able to see the most. Also, I have to consider that there will be much noise being done from whatever I choose to use, and that will mean much more stuff will be awake and wandering the next time I come down. This is why I decide it here, before opening the door, as whatever is on the other side, will immediately wake up and notice me if the door is already opened.

If I'll be doing a stand up fight, then I figure when to make my move for the doorway itself, and then the other side of the door. If it's just regular mummies, guardian mummies, and some skeletal warriors, I might hang out here a bit until I attract something like a few priests, or at least one greater mummy.




Phase 3:

Spoiler: show

Where my character is, in the above picture, is the spot from which I conduct the protracted fight option. The line of sight is cut from the mob that will be swelling from the South. If it's a dumb monster, that is first to the door, then it will stand there and engage me, blocking the entrance. Lamp of Fire has good area to dance flames going out into the corridor, or a wand of clouds is okay. If too many smiters have moved into view, then a scroll of fog can be used, but I haven't found the need to use one at this position (yet).

Greater mummies, mummy priests, and also bennus' will eventually push their way forward to the door. This is even if they are summoning up a storm. I think it is programmed in their behavior. They might let the first couple of summons have some whacks at me, but eventually those will pull back and the greater monsters will step up (even in clouds of fire). Once one of those are next to me, it's time to bring out the big weapon.

If it is a minor monster clogging the doorway, then I will leave it there and turn my attention to whatever is behind me in the room. I'm always mindful of maintaining a clear path to the escape hatch (!). If necessary, a scroll of blinking can get me out in two turns. Just holding a long blade in hand (even with no skill), for the possible ripostes at the door, and chucking some missiles, or using a wand to soften up whatever is coming at me from inside the room. I don't leave that spot, cause in doing so, it will just open the flood gates of the dam, and then I will have lost control of the position.



Now the character depicted in the pictures is obviously not a troll or minotaur. I just took the opportunity to snap the pictures, because he's effectively using the same method if I were playing one.

However, someone else's "melee brute" character might have a more difficult time, because even though I might be playing an axe tabbing maniac, mine still have some other tools, like fog and silence scrolls, at least one potion of invisibility, a quiet weapon, a long blade (preferably of the flaming brand), maybe some god granted abilities, perhaps some utility spells, or evocable items.

I suppose, the usual best advice would be; try and think ahead, and anticipate when things will get dire, and make your move to get out - before that time.

[akaean]

When I cleared Tomb with a HaFi of TSO, I devoted almost all of the experience I gained in Cocy, Dis and Geh to getting Control Blink online. Once you can cBlink over to the doorways and up stairs, its a bit more manageable. Immolation scrolls and Evocables like the Lamp of Fire are good for clearing the mass of mummies, provided you have some form of torment resistance whether that be from Statue Form, Lich Form, or even just TSO healing. Still, new Tomb is pretty brutal- even lignification is exceptionally unreliable- it provides no protection from Ushabti's miasma breath.

Thing is, with Tome is your 15th rune, you have a ton of experience to put towards skills explicitly designed to counter it- provided you know what those skills are. Even a melee brute in Plate Armor ( http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/akaea ... 025637.txt ) can learn Control Blink at acceptable failure rates just from putting Hell experience into spellcasting and transloc

[Airwolf]

Thanks for the detailed strategy.

On step 1: I walk to one of the doors immediately after coming downstairs, so that I spend as little time as possible without being able to use a blink scroll to the stairs. (Once you've opened a door, the next time down you are in a better position: you can blink to the door or inside it and then blink to the stairs, unless you get extremely unlucky—or you wait too long—and it gets filled with summons.)

Your method of fighting scarabs with fog before opening a door may be strictly better, but I worry about getting swarmed by Greater Mummies and summons there without having a quick escape option.

Also, I'd add that if you get slowed by scarabs or death curses, consider whether you need to quaff haste to improve your shot at survival. If you're in a safe spot, maybe you can conserve your potions, but don't get stingy if you're in a bad spot.

I like your final advice about thinking and planning carefully. Tomb:3 is definitely the spot where you want to play most deliberately and carefully.