Swamp Slogger
Posts: 174
Joined: Saturday, 16th September 2017, 21:17
Thursday, 21st September 2017, 16:16
The Development of a Tank
I’ve shared the results of a couple runs (after YASDs) with GrFi of Chei builds, and have gotten a bit of advice. While I’m not posting a guide (since I have yet to make this build work), this post is a “guide to how I’m doing it.” Essentially, I’m going to give a background to how I’m creating my character so that others can track my thought-process and give me advice/tips accordingly. The goal of this build is to become a tank – and I don’t mean tank in the typical gaming sense of just shrugging damage…I mean literally a tank. A rolling mass of armor that crushing things and blasts the rest out of existence.
I chose the race of Gargoyle because of the obvious – increased innate AC and GDR give the absolute best mid/late-game durability, and poison immunity, petrification resistance, rot immunity, unbreathing, rNeg, and rTorm are all awesome boosts. The Big Wings are also something I generally run the instant I get them, since it makes navigating lava and water a cinch (and sometimes tactical dream). That said, the -20% HP is quite dangerous early game, and makes attacks that bypass AC my worst nightmare. Last run I was lucky enough to get Robust 2 mutation to cancel that fragility, but that’s more of a fluke than a consistent boon. Still, no one can argue that a well-build gargoyle is the best tank in the game.
Fighter has been my choice class of late because the high Str as well as armor and shield training are quite helpful. Starting with a weapon that is a step up from the baseline is also a good advantage. I’ve tried this build with Monk (one of my favorite generic backgrounds for trying out different races), achieving reasonable success, but generally find the lost armor skill unhelpful, and the inability to find a good shield until deeper into the dungeon a relevant problem.
I generally chose to start with a flail to take advantage of the Gargoyle’s aptitudes. M&F cross-trains with staves and axes, both of which are desirable for me (on some runs I’ve used magical staves to help out will spell-power, and always plan to switch to axes later). After scores of runs, I’ve also noticed you can almost always find good early-game M&F weps (well-enchanted and branded whips are D:1-3 regulars; early orcs regularly carry nice maces, flails, and morningstars; even good dire flails can be found off of two-headed ogres, Edmund, and wights). Good axes, however, are generally pretty hard to find – you’ll usually come across battleaxes once orc warriors and wights show up, but enchanted war-axes and broad-axes (for one-handed weps) are several times more rare, with broad-axes almost never showing up until later. Still, the advantages of axes (and the cross-training with M&F and polearms) has me considering changing this preference.
When I start the game, my first move is to plot my skills. Starting focus with this build I dump stealth (+2 apt makes it doable starting anyway). I’ve managed to hit max-stealth with this tank build when I accidentally trained stealth (coincidence of stealth-boosting gear, really), but the heavy armor still overrides the benefits of that kind of stealth for most creatures (hydra and orcs do seem to sleep deep, though). With stealth dropped, I focus on my wep skill and spellcasting. With a low aptitude for spellcasting I like to train that early since I plan on auxillary casting. Fighting, Armor, and Shields make the cut as well, with dodging being left for auto-training (usually ends up around 2-5%). Now, sometimes I get good EV gear (had one build with dragon armor running 29 EV at nearly 40 AC), but generally speaking I feel dodging for a tank is more of a circumstantial after-thought than a good auxillary skill.
Moving through the early floors is fairly typical (get good gear if possible, stay alive, die and restart, etc). I keep an eye out for Cheibro altars (yes, I know that’s not how it’s spelled, but “Chei” just seems odd to me). That said, since I regularly see TSO or other Holy Trinity altars on D:1-2, I’ll often convert to them (no punishment for converting to the neutral snail god) to get Invocations up and running as well as short-term benefits, since sometimes I haven’t found Cheibro altars until D:7.
At this stage Invocations is a big focus, since hitting skill lvl 5-8 makes Slouch a reliable tool. Now, I’ve been at an impasse with Evocations recently. I usually to train it, but my low-usage of the skill made me feel it was a drag on this build. I dropped it the last run, with little ill-effects (still – phantom mirror, phial of floods, wand of scattershot…). Still, I know I won’t fully drop it next run – most likely I’ll refocus into jacking it up once my other more immediate skills are on good levels.
I usually switch to chain mail once I find it (instead of the starting scale mail). Plate armor I avoid early-game because the encumbrance can occasionally make you lethally inaccurate until you have a moderate armor skill. Often in the early game (as in under D:8) I will use well-enchanted whips/maces in preference to other weapons – I’ve found the increased speed and accuracy to be useful until I pass wep skill lvl 8-10.
Once I find I spellbook, I will generally start training a relevant school of magic. Some books aren’t as useful to me in this build, but my focus typically runs Conjurations (applies to just about every attack spell) and Hexes (not the most reliable, but often life-savers). If I get elemental books I will usually train ONE element (Earth and Fire being my preference, Ice coming in second and air being avoided due to poor aptitudes). For cross-schools conjurations and hexes usually help. Transmutations I have been avoiding largely at this stage, mainly because most of the better spells (petrify, ice-form, etc.) can be cross-trained from other schools, and the rest aren’t useful to this build. Necromancy is something in which I have poor aptitudes (and some inhibitions as “non-living”), so there are only a few useful spells for me (if I have the pack-space in mid-game simulacrum is an option, for example, with enough Ice skills). Translocations are nice but circumstantial, so I’ll usually leave those by the wayside – scrolls are almost always better for emergency usage with this build.
So, by the time I’m around D:10, my skill spread will have Armor, fighting, Shields, and Weps as my highest, with Spellcasting and Invocations second, and specific spell-schools and dodging last. Evocations (if I have decided to do it) will usually be low as well.
Now, Shields – many people don’t like them, but with Cheibro the fact is they are quite useful. Most of the time with Cheibro I’m taking a lot of hits, one way or the other – sometimes in bad situations I’ll waddle towards the best choke-point/fox-hole in spite of my enemies (taking numerous turns of hits in the process), or other times the space is too open to hide/safety is too far and I’m forced to be surrounded by multiple opponents. Looking at my morgue file for this last run, you’ll see that I blocked all the time (32 SH didn’t hurt). When I’m stuck facing down five elephants and a 7-headed hydra at once in a wide-open floor (or a whole herd of death yak at once, like I did last game), blocking above 80% of those attacks is remarkably helpful. I will generally stick with a medium shield unless I find an artefact (had the warlock’s mirrors once…really nice) or until I hit 15-18 shield skill, at which point I’ll switch to a large shield. With Cheibro my Str and Dex are usually so remarkably high that with good wep and shield skill I don’t suffer from using a shield, and having to stick with one-handed weapons is usually a small sacrifice in damage output vs having a ridiculously high blocking-rate. Paired with my shield, of course, is almost always an amulet of reflection – watching ranged enemies self-destruct before I can even totter over and smash them is always fun.
Armor – unenchanted plate armor is not something I particularly like, since it has tons of encumbrance for a nominal boost in AC. Enchanted chain mail with equal AC is usually easy enough to find. Dragon armor is quite useful as well – my previous good run I had Acid Dragon armor for rCorr, which is a decent medium armor with low encumbrance. Early on in the game I have sometimes used Steam Dragon armor if I find it, since 0 encumbrance helps increase my accuracy and decrease my spell-fail rate. These are always temporary, however – once I find a good heavy armor (I have been lucky enough to find artefact plate armor on my last two good runs, as well as crystal plate armor) I will switch over. Other armors I will sometimes hold onto for the purpose of specific qualities if I have dragon/artefact armors (resistances and SInv are the obvious big draws, as are significant boosts of other types). As for my peripheral gear, I always wear the best I find. Period.
Weapons – by mid/late game I’ve usually been having troubles the last runs, finding only mediocre weapons. This last run I got a broad-axe of electrocution and enchanted it, but was able to use it very little before I kicked the bucket. That said, a part of this scarcity is that I look for one-handed only. Don’t get me wrong – if I find an enchanted executioner’s axe, I’ll grab it. Still, that’s more for end game (26 wep skill for min delay and all) than immediate usage. Shields are a huge-part of this build, and when I tried running without them my durability dropped drastically once I started getting into swarm environments like Lair (and it’s sub-branches) and Orcish Mines. My ideal weapon with this build is an artefact broad-axe paired up with a good shield. That said, I’m not terribly picky – if I’ve got decent wep skill with it (aka, M&F/axes/staves or polearms) I’ll use it if it’s the best I have available. Last run I was stuck with a +2 Holy Morningstar 90% of the time, and a +3 broad axe of electrocution at the very end (if you hear me, RNGesus, a couple scrolls of acquirement would be awesome!).
Cheibro – honestly, his gameplay with this build is about the same as with any other, I’d guess. Slouch fast, pesky enemies out of existence, use invocations to slow enemies at the head of a line, draw in ranged enemies, etc. In an emergency, step from time and pray your foes wander away.
My thoughts on Build Strengths: Cheibro is Cheibro. Everyone knows the insanity that he gives. Paired up with the best tanky race, you’re essentially unstoppable in melee. You’ll also have enough intelligence to be able to cast spells well and with high power. In open areas you can survive longer than most builds, and in a nice hallway (especially if it has angles for short LOS) you are nearly unbeatable.
The downsides: Being too slow to hide or run, however, belligerent magical attacks (or ones that ignore AC) will always be a problem. Additionally, even with Cheibro, wearing heaviest armors and shields will force you to pour XP into your magical skills to get the spells about spell lvl 4-5 up and running. Slouch trails off in power towards the late-game, particularly when your worst enemies (like many Elven casters) are relatively slow. Step From Time is an awesome panic button, but in tight-floors you’ll probably awake with the enemies still relatively close. While you are possibly the most durable build in the game, remember that there is still a point where an infinity of damage raining down on you each turn is going to beat it’s way through or past your defenses.
Sooo….I think that’s that. This build has a rather weak early phase when you have bleh weapons and Cheibro’s empowerment hasn’t come online (and being a Gargoyle is more fragile than tanky), and then a phase in the later game around lvl 20 when your strength has cleared the “normal” floors is pushing you out of your comfort zone. I think my personal biggest shortcoming with these builds (aside from RNGesus hating weapons) is that I undervalue mid/late-game Evocations, and don’t put enough focus on magical skills to get my powerful spell abilities into full play, leaving me with a pile of books from which I only know mid-level spells.
I chose the race of Gargoyle because of the obvious – increased innate AC and GDR give the absolute best mid/late-game durability, and poison immunity, petrification resistance, rot immunity, unbreathing, rNeg, and rTorm are all awesome boosts. The Big Wings are also something I generally run the instant I get them, since it makes navigating lava and water a cinch (and sometimes tactical dream). That said, the -20% HP is quite dangerous early game, and makes attacks that bypass AC my worst nightmare. Last run I was lucky enough to get Robust 2 mutation to cancel that fragility, but that’s more of a fluke than a consistent boon. Still, no one can argue that a well-build gargoyle is the best tank in the game.
Fighter has been my choice class of late because the high Str as well as armor and shield training are quite helpful. Starting with a weapon that is a step up from the baseline is also a good advantage. I’ve tried this build with Monk (one of my favorite generic backgrounds for trying out different races), achieving reasonable success, but generally find the lost armor skill unhelpful, and the inability to find a good shield until deeper into the dungeon a relevant problem.
I generally chose to start with a flail to take advantage of the Gargoyle’s aptitudes. M&F cross-trains with staves and axes, both of which are desirable for me (on some runs I’ve used magical staves to help out will spell-power, and always plan to switch to axes later). After scores of runs, I’ve also noticed you can almost always find good early-game M&F weps (well-enchanted and branded whips are D:1-3 regulars; early orcs regularly carry nice maces, flails, and morningstars; even good dire flails can be found off of two-headed ogres, Edmund, and wights). Good axes, however, are generally pretty hard to find – you’ll usually come across battleaxes once orc warriors and wights show up, but enchanted war-axes and broad-axes (for one-handed weps) are several times more rare, with broad-axes almost never showing up until later. Still, the advantages of axes (and the cross-training with M&F and polearms) has me considering changing this preference.
When I start the game, my first move is to plot my skills. Starting focus with this build I dump stealth (+2 apt makes it doable starting anyway). I’ve managed to hit max-stealth with this tank build when I accidentally trained stealth (coincidence of stealth-boosting gear, really), but the heavy armor still overrides the benefits of that kind of stealth for most creatures (hydra and orcs do seem to sleep deep, though). With stealth dropped, I focus on my wep skill and spellcasting. With a low aptitude for spellcasting I like to train that early since I plan on auxillary casting. Fighting, Armor, and Shields make the cut as well, with dodging being left for auto-training (usually ends up around 2-5%). Now, sometimes I get good EV gear (had one build with dragon armor running 29 EV at nearly 40 AC), but generally speaking I feel dodging for a tank is more of a circumstantial after-thought than a good auxillary skill.
Moving through the early floors is fairly typical (get good gear if possible, stay alive, die and restart, etc). I keep an eye out for Cheibro altars (yes, I know that’s not how it’s spelled, but “Chei” just seems odd to me). That said, since I regularly see TSO or other Holy Trinity altars on D:1-2, I’ll often convert to them (no punishment for converting to the neutral snail god) to get Invocations up and running as well as short-term benefits, since sometimes I haven’t found Cheibro altars until D:7.
At this stage Invocations is a big focus, since hitting skill lvl 5-8 makes Slouch a reliable tool. Now, I’ve been at an impasse with Evocations recently. I usually to train it, but my low-usage of the skill made me feel it was a drag on this build. I dropped it the last run, with little ill-effects (still – phantom mirror, phial of floods, wand of scattershot…). Still, I know I won’t fully drop it next run – most likely I’ll refocus into jacking it up once my other more immediate skills are on good levels.
I usually switch to chain mail once I find it (instead of the starting scale mail). Plate armor I avoid early-game because the encumbrance can occasionally make you lethally inaccurate until you have a moderate armor skill. Often in the early game (as in under D:8) I will use well-enchanted whips/maces in preference to other weapons – I’ve found the increased speed and accuracy to be useful until I pass wep skill lvl 8-10.
Once I find I spellbook, I will generally start training a relevant school of magic. Some books aren’t as useful to me in this build, but my focus typically runs Conjurations (applies to just about every attack spell) and Hexes (not the most reliable, but often life-savers). If I get elemental books I will usually train ONE element (Earth and Fire being my preference, Ice coming in second and air being avoided due to poor aptitudes). For cross-schools conjurations and hexes usually help. Transmutations I have been avoiding largely at this stage, mainly because most of the better spells (petrify, ice-form, etc.) can be cross-trained from other schools, and the rest aren’t useful to this build. Necromancy is something in which I have poor aptitudes (and some inhibitions as “non-living”), so there are only a few useful spells for me (if I have the pack-space in mid-game simulacrum is an option, for example, with enough Ice skills). Translocations are nice but circumstantial, so I’ll usually leave those by the wayside – scrolls are almost always better for emergency usage with this build.
So, by the time I’m around D:10, my skill spread will have Armor, fighting, Shields, and Weps as my highest, with Spellcasting and Invocations second, and specific spell-schools and dodging last. Evocations (if I have decided to do it) will usually be low as well.
Now, Shields – many people don’t like them, but with Cheibro the fact is they are quite useful. Most of the time with Cheibro I’m taking a lot of hits, one way or the other – sometimes in bad situations I’ll waddle towards the best choke-point/fox-hole in spite of my enemies (taking numerous turns of hits in the process), or other times the space is too open to hide/safety is too far and I’m forced to be surrounded by multiple opponents. Looking at my morgue file for this last run, you’ll see that I blocked all the time (32 SH didn’t hurt). When I’m stuck facing down five elephants and a 7-headed hydra at once in a wide-open floor (or a whole herd of death yak at once, like I did last game), blocking above 80% of those attacks is remarkably helpful. I will generally stick with a medium shield unless I find an artefact (had the warlock’s mirrors once…really nice) or until I hit 15-18 shield skill, at which point I’ll switch to a large shield. With Cheibro my Str and Dex are usually so remarkably high that with good wep and shield skill I don’t suffer from using a shield, and having to stick with one-handed weapons is usually a small sacrifice in damage output vs having a ridiculously high blocking-rate. Paired with my shield, of course, is almost always an amulet of reflection – watching ranged enemies self-destruct before I can even totter over and smash them is always fun.
Armor – unenchanted plate armor is not something I particularly like, since it has tons of encumbrance for a nominal boost in AC. Enchanted chain mail with equal AC is usually easy enough to find. Dragon armor is quite useful as well – my previous good run I had Acid Dragon armor for rCorr, which is a decent medium armor with low encumbrance. Early on in the game I have sometimes used Steam Dragon armor if I find it, since 0 encumbrance helps increase my accuracy and decrease my spell-fail rate. These are always temporary, however – once I find a good heavy armor (I have been lucky enough to find artefact plate armor on my last two good runs, as well as crystal plate armor) I will switch over. Other armors I will sometimes hold onto for the purpose of specific qualities if I have dragon/artefact armors (resistances and SInv are the obvious big draws, as are significant boosts of other types). As for my peripheral gear, I always wear the best I find. Period.
Weapons – by mid/late game I’ve usually been having troubles the last runs, finding only mediocre weapons. This last run I got a broad-axe of electrocution and enchanted it, but was able to use it very little before I kicked the bucket. That said, a part of this scarcity is that I look for one-handed only. Don’t get me wrong – if I find an enchanted executioner’s axe, I’ll grab it. Still, that’s more for end game (26 wep skill for min delay and all) than immediate usage. Shields are a huge-part of this build, and when I tried running without them my durability dropped drastically once I started getting into swarm environments like Lair (and it’s sub-branches) and Orcish Mines. My ideal weapon with this build is an artefact broad-axe paired up with a good shield. That said, I’m not terribly picky – if I’ve got decent wep skill with it (aka, M&F/axes/staves or polearms) I’ll use it if it’s the best I have available. Last run I was stuck with a +2 Holy Morningstar 90% of the time, and a +3 broad axe of electrocution at the very end (if you hear me, RNGesus, a couple scrolls of acquirement would be awesome!).
Cheibro – honestly, his gameplay with this build is about the same as with any other, I’d guess. Slouch fast, pesky enemies out of existence, use invocations to slow enemies at the head of a line, draw in ranged enemies, etc. In an emergency, step from time and pray your foes wander away.
My thoughts on Build Strengths: Cheibro is Cheibro. Everyone knows the insanity that he gives. Paired up with the best tanky race, you’re essentially unstoppable in melee. You’ll also have enough intelligence to be able to cast spells well and with high power. In open areas you can survive longer than most builds, and in a nice hallway (especially if it has angles for short LOS) you are nearly unbeatable.
The downsides: Being too slow to hide or run, however, belligerent magical attacks (or ones that ignore AC) will always be a problem. Additionally, even with Cheibro, wearing heaviest armors and shields will force you to pour XP into your magical skills to get the spells about spell lvl 4-5 up and running. Slouch trails off in power towards the late-game, particularly when your worst enemies (like many Elven casters) are relatively slow. Step From Time is an awesome panic button, but in tight-floors you’ll probably awake with the enemies still relatively close. While you are possibly the most durable build in the game, remember that there is still a point where an infinity of damage raining down on you each turn is going to beat it’s way through or past your defenses.
Sooo….I think that’s that. This build has a rather weak early phase when you have bleh weapons and Cheibro’s empowerment hasn’t come online (and being a Gargoyle is more fragile than tanky), and then a phase in the later game around lvl 20 when your strength has cleared the “normal” floors is pushing you out of your comfort zone. I think my personal biggest shortcoming with these builds (aside from RNGesus hating weapons) is that I undervalue mid/late-game Evocations, and don’t put enough focus on magical skills to get my powerful spell abilities into full play, leaving me with a pile of books from which I only know mid-level spells.
- For this message the author Alphaeus has received thanks:
- mattlistener
. Still, I get your point -- the fragility is a problem, but taking essentially 0 melee or ranged damage is really nice.
