OpBe advice

[mrthehoople]

Hi

Continuing quest for greaterberserker I'm now onto OpBe. Any advice on this build? Which weapon class to go for? Is 1H with Shield to be favoured because of the lack of AC? Shall i invest heavily in ranged weapons?

Thanks!

[crawlnoob]

Somebody will come along with more specific advice, Im sure, but for starters: Op's greatest weakness is having to melee anything. Avoid that at all costs, so yeah throwing or some form of ranged is a very good idea, even more so than typically. Evocation is also a big idea.

Stealth is a really good investment, at least up to 8 or so skill.

Get your EV up high FAST, otherwise you are a walking pincushion for centaurs and later anything with a ranged attack. SInv is a must have, as you don't have any EV against invisible enemies, once you get a good character gutted by your first couple unseen horrors you will appreciate this a bit more (teleport immediately if not in corridor or if you cant manage to constrict it in the first couple turns). Shields are generally a good idea, at least in the beginning, ultimately depends on what kind of rings/weapon you find, but my favorite is an eveningstar and an artefact shield with lots of egos. Polearms are probably optimal, however.

Make ample use of Trog, more than you would normally. Constriction is extremely strong, especially in the early game. It scales with strength. Dont try to constrict multiple enemies however, unless its popcorn. If you arent prioritizing 1on1 far more than any other character would, you are going to die.

Use acquire on armor. You will get shields and hats, exclusively.

If there is deep water on your level, stay near it and use it to full advantage. Lure everything back to your kill-pond. Even shallow water can be useful as it gives a fighting malus to your enemies.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I have just checked my OpBe from a 3 years ago thread and found I played it really stupid:
M&F to 12, Short Blades to 5, Stealth to 10, M&F to 14, Evo to 5, Fighting to 5 (at XL 14 ), Shield to 10, Fighting to 10, Short Blades to 10, Stealth 15, Shields 15, Dodging 15 and so on.
So I guess my advice is "it's still a berserker, be careful with tactics and you can train whatever"

Edit. Final skills:

  Code:

 + Level 25.7 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Short Blades
 - Level 16.0 Maces & Flails
 + Level 21.8 Dodging
 - Level 20.7 Stealth
 + Level 24.5 Shields
 - Level 16.9 Evocations

so no ranged weapon is necessary either.

[mrthehoople]

thanks folks, that's really helpful

I just realised I've gotten so used to playing MuBe recently that I haven't used berserk ability once yet before lair...

[tasonir]

Generally speaking slings are a very powerful early game weapon and the ranged option that will actually have enough ammo (if you count stones) early on. They're also compatible with shields, which you'll probably want, so I'd say train up the first sling you find and then pick a melee weapon later on when you have something worth using.

If you want to go unarmed + shield, octopodes don't lose their offhand (off-tentacle?) attack while using shields, so it's quite strong. Do keep in mind the usual drawbacks: weaker at the start, and costs a lot of experience to get up over level 20 in the end game. Although berserkers will have a lot of experience since they aren't training much else, and you can't train armor, so...

[severen]

I reccomend going UC and only training UC until you get to about 9-10 skill, then train fighting/dodge/UC/shield. This basically kills things fast enough make up for low defense. Then you need to somehow get enough defense, which means you want a shield, but you will probably have a number of play through where you neither find a shield or an EV/AC ring. But I can say from starting OpFi a number of times immediately rushing all UC while having a shield is pretty reliable.

Also early stealth can help a lot.

Finally as an Op you need to really understand what will kill you very fast at low AC. I.e. a white ugly thing is incredibly dangerous and its often smart to simply away immediately if you see one earlier levels. An ogre is no more or less dangerous and actually a bit easier because its easily possible for a UC Op to burn one down reliably after about level 6 or so. But the brand on a white ugly thing hits for huge damage and with low armor will brand most any hit and they can kill you very fast at level 10.

I have 15 runed a non-transmute OpFi (oka to zin) and its doable, but I am quite sure OpBe is quite inferior since you get no spells.

[despairbutalsodespair]

same as febe. play trog until you find dragon or statue form, then switch to makh. nowadays id do it in 0.16

[FakerFangirl]

-snip-

Genius.

[crawlnoob]

I would be tempted to go with a weapon on OpBe because Trog will be raining them down on you ALL GAME and his weapon gifts are not to be sneezed at (you can''t get anti-magic or vamp brand on your tentacles and Trog likes those brands, he will also give you speed brand which makes up for the low aut on UC), because you don't need 20+ weapon skill considering you are probably going 1h, which is what you will need to get into to make UC good, because you will constrict whether or not you have UC, and because you do not have claws3 which is the mutation which makes UC powerful.

And by tempted I mean I pretty much wouldnt go UC unless I felt like Op wasn't challenging enough.

[bel]

I would not go UC on an OpBe. UC sucks without forms, and Trog's weapon gifts would be wasted. FeBe has to go UC; OpBe has other choices. Pick any weapon, it doesn't matter. Probably long blades are best. You'll get the riposte damage, and they cross train with short blades if you want to sneak around and stab some monsters.

[severen]

If you don't actually care whether you finish as a Be then I would leave trog for Oka (or some other) as soon as you think you can survive it. If you can get statue form castable then you can survive trog, no question. For this strategy the weapon gifts are a moot point.

If you want to finish as Be then do whatever. Its mostly based on luck and not doing things like rushing hydrae

[crawlnoob]

If you don't actually care whether you finish as a Be then I would leave trog for Oka (or some other) as soon as you think you can survive it. If you can get statue form castable then you can survive trog, no question. For this strategy the weapon gifts are a moot point.

If you want to finish as Be then do whatever. Its mostly based on luck and not doing things like rushing hydrae

Considering he is going for greaterberserker, I dont think he wants to drop Trog, but even if he did, dropping Trog for Okawaru??? Really?

[njvack]

well oka will give you hats

[severen]

If you don't actually care whether you finish as a Be then I would leave trog for Oka (or some other) as soon as you think you can survive it. If you can get statue form castable then you can survive trog, no question. For this strategy the weapon gifts are a moot point.

If you want to finish as Be then do whatever. Its mostly based on luck and not doing things like rushing hydrae

Considering he is going for greaterberserker, I dont think he wants to drop Trog, but even if he did, dropping Trog for Okawaru??? Really?

I am not sure why you find this shocking a statuepode or dragonpode of Oka is radically stronger than an Op of Trog. There is a reason I did branchless hellcrawl with a dragonpode and almost no one does any kind of berserker. But even without transmutations an UC OpFi of Oka can 15 rune the game just fine (although in my case I did later game as Zin), I've done it and with a good shield its fine, finesse + heroism are certainly needed in depths but they handle most things fine. Oka finesse is faster than berserk and heroism is quite good especially if you go UC, so damage wise its just as good. When you go Oka you can use spells. Ozo armor is one of the best ways for low level Op to get a bit of AC. Add on shroud and an Oka Op is much more surivable. Now add on the fact that Oka makes it FAR FAR more likely you get a decent shield early it really starts to add up. Trog will give you one good advantage over Oka, the great summons, and an Op can get very useful summons via spells anyway. Otherwise its VERY inferior for an Op. An Op of Oka with a decent shield and hat is usually going to happen and if you find the right books you can get Ozo armor/summon ice beast and/or summon mana viper. That setup is considerably better than Trog and matures into something (multiple somethings depending on what you feel like taking) that is vastly better.

Keep in my Oka can only gift an Op shields and hats for armor, so unlike most species oka armor gifts are much more likely to be useful.

Once you have good equipment you can do whatever you like.

Either way there is absolutely no doubt a statuepode of Oka is much much stronger than an Op of Trog. If you find this strange you may not be playing Op in a manner that is most conducive to winning. However even ignoring ALL transmutations Oka with the correct spells is much better than Trog for an Op.

[crawlnoob]

You dont need Oka to learn statue form. Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost. If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that. Not a lot of them can, but ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

Hats arent exactly super rare, shields definitely arent. I wouldnt pick Oka on the off-chance that he gives me a hat that doesnt totally suck.

[severen]

You dont need Oka to learn statue form. Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost. If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that. Not a lot of them can, but ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

Hats arent exactly super rare, shields definitely arent. I wouldnt pick Oka on the off-chance that he gives me a hat that doesnt totally suck.

Your argument is poorly constructed and seems to be confusing you. Of course you don't need Oka to learn statue form, but you do need to leave Trog to use it and any number of other incredibly useful spells. For the purposes of melee fighting Oka is just as good as Trog for an Op, but Oka also allows the use of spells. However you could of course leave Trog for some other god that is also useful, for example Mahkleb. The main thing is Trog forbids spells and for Op specifically this is a gigantic downside.

When you take Trog you lose out of the following:
- Ozo armor, regen, and shroud (you therefore have MUCH worse defense)
- various escape spells (you therefore are MUCH more likely to get stuck in a bad situation)
- various spells that help you do damage (like slaying which is extremely useful to Op)
- various EXTREMELY good summons (SIB, MV, Monstrous menagerie, malign gateway)
- transmutations that can either make you able to do double to triple the possible damage a Trog Op would ever do (dragon form) or let you do more damage than a trog Op and have much much better AC and resistances (statue form).

*It is important to note that Op get and retain Wizardy unlike most species. Finding a ring of wiz is common and enough and you usually have space to keep it. So having multiple spells castable without a ton of xp is a reasonable secnario

Since Oka gives:
- Better gifts (you will almost certainly get a very nice artifact hat which is NOT common in anyway and some kind of shield with resistances and enchantment and weapons are basically the same)
- MUCH faster attacks (finesse is double attack speed versus berserk 1.5x) with NO downside when it expires.
- Significant skills boost (this is VERY strong for OP since their defense is HEAVILY skill based on dodge and shield)

The only thing this leaves is the MR/regen boost and Trog's excellent summons. These in absolutely no way can EVER even vaguely make up for the loss of spells. Oka is better than Trog for Op and gets even better as the game goes on. The MR/regen is a joke compared to Ozo/shroud/regen. The summons are very good but can never make up for loss of transmutations and a non-trog OP can cast comparable summons anyway in a fashion that is far more versatile (malign gateway and MM are both extremely versatile and require no piety).

Its probably better to be a godless Op with statue form than be an Op worshipping Trog. But its definitely, no questions asked, better to be an Op with spells and worship Oka than it is to be a Op of Trog. Trog is a known easy start for most species, that matures out decently. But for Op this is not true, while the start is similarly easy the maturing part is terrible. Oka is better than Trog on an Op due to spells being available. For Op specifically disallowing spells is a gigantic detriment that is typically not the case for other species (except I guess draconians) most other species are going to wear heavy armor as Trog anyway and its a moot point.

The point isn't that Oka is awesome, the point is that lack of spells from Trog is a gigantic detriment to Op because it is one of the best ways to make up for Op deficiencies and since Op never wear armor spellcasting as melee is not an issue.

There is literally absolutely no way for an Op of Trog to be of similar strength to a spellcasting melee Op of ANY other god and I would go so far as to hypothesize that they are actually weaker than even a godless spellcasting melee Op (in the later game, Be helps Op early on. Well not really, an OpIE with no god is vastly better than an OpBe and is one of my goto starts for Op I plain on maturing into melee).

Statuepode of Trog would be great if it was possible. It is not. Statuepode of Oka is possible and also fairly closely comparable. It is also miles better. So is statuepode of Mahkleb or almost any other god. Therefore switching from raw OpBe to statuepode is a gigantic upgrade over base Op of Trog. Period. Full Stop.

If you want to make the strongest Op from a Be start, the best thing you can do is leave Trog. Even a few modest level spells (Ozo/shroud/regen/blink) and a good summon as Oka will be better than Trog. But there are a bunch of other options as well. Even switching to Chei will be much better. Pure OpBe is doable, but its gimped compared to any decently put together combo using spells with probably any other god.

[crawlnoob]

"Your argument is poorly constructed and seems to be confusing you."

Wow get a fucking load of yourself. Not even going to bother reading your wall of BS text at this point.

[severen]

"Your argument is poorly constructed and seems to be confusing you."

Wow get a fucking load of yourself. Not even going to bother reading your wall of BS text at this point.

This was not a personal attack. Your argument as its constructed basically ignores the downside of Trog and argues to only consider upside when comparing to other gods. This is fundamentally wrong because the downside of Trog is drastically worse for Op than it is for other species. The first portion of the conclusion statement attempts to state that most gods can't compare well to Trog BEFORE you even mention the downside. This is a structural problem.

You dont need Oka to learn statue form. Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost. If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that. Not a lot of them can, but ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

The last part should have been before everything else:

ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

then

Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost.

These two statements together naturally lead to the proper comparison, which is: will some god's set of abilities/downsides + spells outperform Trog for an Op?

But instead there is the improper comparison:

If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that.

Putting that statement before the downside is completely wrong. It says you should only compare upside and the downside is then mentioned later like its not part of the comparison. This is wrong.

You dont need Oka to learn statue form.

This is nonsensical and not germane to anything that was said by anyone in the thread. It is also the first statement. The fact that it was even stated indicates that something is confusing the issue. Oka + statue form is good because finesse makes UC attack speed 0.35 (or thereabouts) which is vastly more damaging while also having vastly better defense than anything a berserk raw Op is going to do. No one claimed Oka has any use for learning statue form. So why even state that? It almost appears as if you are arguing that other non-Trog gods are better to choose instead of Oka. Which is fine as a number of them can be, but its very muddy and hard to relate to the rest of the case. If Oka + statue is better than Trog and GodXYZ + statue is better than Oka +statue then GodXYZ +statue is also better than Trog. So it has no way of supporting the case that Trog is a good choice even if there are better choices than Oka. IF anything it hurts the argument because its just odd.

[Siegurt]

"Your argument is poorly constructed and seems to be confusing you."

Wow get a fucking load of yourself. Not even going to bother reading your wall of BS text at this point.

This was not a personal attack. Your argument as its constructed basically ignores the downside of Trog and argues to only consider upside when comparing to other gods. This is fundamentally wrong because the downside of Trog is drastically worse for Op than it is for other species. The first portion of the conclusion statement attempts to state that most gods can't compare well to Trog BEFORE you even mention the downside. This is a structural problem.

You dont need Oka to learn statue form. Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost. If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that. Not a lot of them can, but ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

The last part should have been before everything else:

ALL of the other gods will allow you to learn spells.

then

Trog gives you strong allies and berserk on demand, as well as regen/MR boost.

These two statements together naturally lead to the proper comparison, which is: will some god's set of abilities/downsides + spells outperform Trog for an Op?

But instead there is the improper comparison:

If you are going to give him up for another god, you should pick a god that can actually compare to that.

Putting that statement before the downside is completely wrong. It says you should only compare upside and the downside is then mentioned later like its not part of the comparison. This is wrong.

You dont need Oka to learn statue form.

This is nonsensical and not germane to anything that was said by anyone in the thread. It is also the first statement. The fact that it was even stated indicates that something is confusing the issue. Oka + statue form is good because finesse makes UC attack speed 0.35 (or thereabouts) which is vastly more damaging while also having vastly better defense than anything a berserk raw Op is going to do. No one claimed Oka has any use for learning statue form. So why even state that? It almost appears as if you are arguing that other non-Trog gods are better to choose instead of Oka. Which is fine as a number of them can be, but its very muddy and hard to relate to the rest of the case. If Oka + statue is better than Trog and GodXYZ + statue is better than Oka +statue then GodXYZ +statue is also better than Trog. So it has no way of supporting the case that Trog is a good choice even if there are better choices than Oka. IF anything it hurts the argument because its just odd.

To me it didn't look like he was saying trog was the best choice, only that oka was a surprising (perhaps implying non-optimal?) choice of gods to switch *to* from trog. Also he commented that the OP might not want to switch from trog for metagame reasons, which is unrelated to the subsequent conversation entirely, but might have confused it.

[tasonir]

If you aren't wedded to the idea of Be as a background (for greater background or whatever) consider going Gozag. Start is still hell but maybe one day you'll survive long enough to actually buy yourself a jewellery shop (or several). Get your ac the old fashioned way, with 6 rings of protection! (Two slots left for resists )

[VeryAngryFelid]

Is it really possible to get statue form before abandoning Trog? Trog becomes angry for training even spellcasting as far as I remember

[crawlnoob]

You can memorize a spell, but you will drop into penance immediately (I think even from full piety) so what is the point, not sure it was brought up anyhow.

Yes, I was arguing, and quite clearly, that Oka is a poor choice because, as I said, ALL other Gods will allow you to learn spells, and to clarify for confused people, that means you cant talk about spells being an upside or a downside once you have decided to switch. You look at what the new God gives you, and what Trog gave you, and compare.

Yes, Oka has finesse, and yes finesse is pretty good. Its not as good as iron trolls on demand, however, not by a long shot, and doubly so if we toss in berserk with those iron trolls (who are ALSO berserked). Is finesse + statue form better than trog's allies and berserk? Arguably, and certainly in some specific situations, but every other choice of god will allow you to use statue form so you need to ask is GodXAbility X + statue form better than GodYAbility Y + statue form and the statue form cancels out. I'm repeating myself here so that slow people can catch up, if it isn't clear.

The fact that Oka *might* give you a hat worth talking about is not a good argument by any means, on the other hand. His gifts are notoriously random and you are likely to get a "best hat" from him after you have already seen most of the game, or maybe not even at all. Not something to *ahem* hang your hat on in this game.

The skill boost seems more reasonable, but if you are abandoning Trog before you have boosted your defenses in the first place, then you are probably not going to survive Trog's wrath so what is the point. You are also forgoing, assuming you drop Trog very quickly, a win-button (berserk) during the early dungeon for a god that takes his sweet time to give you anything comparable. So again, is the skill boost that good of an idea? Nah.

Now look at some other gods. Mahkleb got mentioned. You get very useful ranged conjurations (that can solve your issue with hydra if you have one) and you are going to get powerful passive healing at high piety which is easy to get with Mahk, and which you get when you need it, during melee. This effectively shores up your single largest weakness as an octopode, which is not having as many hitpoints as most other species. Oh yeah, and you get allies, too. And of course, you get to cast statue form if you can find it (repeating myself here again, third time's the charm). Mahkleb isn't even the best God on the list, either, but I would still take this any day of the week over heroism/finesse/hat drops. Kiku gives you allies and the game breaking 8th level necro spells since you arent wearing armour, and he is going to GIVE you those spells, unlike statue form which you can still use, but as with oka, you still have to find it yourself, first. Gozag got mentioned.. instant win with potion petition at *, clear an entire floor with bribe, what's not to like? You can even go jewelry and hat shopping, which makes his call merchant ability actually pretty attractive for once, oh and you can shop for spellbooks, so getting statue form is maybe easier if it doesnt happen to drop in your game.. I mean, can you imagine switching from Trog to Oka and then NOT finding statue form? Boy would your face be red.

So to sum it all up: Trog is a pretty powerful god that gives you a win-button, a short-term boost button, powerful allies, and drops powerful weapon gifts on you all game. He comes with a significant downside, no magic, but you can easily win the game and most of extended without any spells (new crypts being a notable challenge). If you are going to leave him, maybe pick a god who isn't giving you a short-term boost button, a less spammable win-button not available in early D, and less reliable armour drops in comparison.

[tasonir]

Is it really possible to get statue form before abandoning Trog? Trog becomes angry for training even spellcasting as far as I remember

I'm not sure what OP meant but if I was giving this advice "get" statue form would mean "Find a book with statue form in it and don't burn it". You'd then (at some point later on) abandon trog, and start training for statue form. There would be some delay before you could actually cast statue form after leaving trog of course, hence why leaving trog is not easy.

[njvack]

Is it really possible to get statue form before abandoning Trog? Trog becomes angry for training even spellcasting as far as I remember

you'd be in constant Trog penance which I guess would be an interesting challenge condition

[tabstorm]

do axes + shields. it's fine to start using a large shield with only 16-18 skill or so, the weapon delay penalty will be about 0.05. opbe is kind of frustrating to play because you can't use tmuts which I think usually octopodes want to do.

[mrthehoople]

Wow I hadn't realised this topic was still alive. Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify I'm trying for greaterberserker sticking with trog throughout as a challenge condition (at least for some races like Op - I totally agree trog is seriously suboptimal for Ops) I've done DE and Mu from my list of tough starts but have splatted about a dozen Ops so far without getting past lair branches. I'm tending to go long blades though I might have a go with unarmed and possibly axes yet). Some deaths have seemed pretty unavoidable. 2 were because I couldn't resist trying to complete a bailey (Almost successfully once) but most have been through bad play rather than specific problems with being an OpBe. That said it does demand more careful play than my HOBe did... it may be that a win will come from some lucky drops and me playing carefully and sober...

Anyway thanks for the feedback on this thread it's been interesting!

[crawlnoob]

I started one and got to XL23 or something, got two eveningstars and a large shield. Working on OgBe now which I am curiously having a much harder time with, probably the lack of constriction or the fact that I am playing too fast in orc before doing lair. I wish Og still had +3 m&f Not like Im going to pick a different weapon type anyways just because of -1 apts.