Bultungin/Gnoll Feedback

[njvack]

For me, Gn sounds perfect because it would keep me from incessantly dicking around in the skill menu.

[watertreatmentRL]

Probably much of the popularity the latest gnoll take in dcss comes from the very generous approach to game balance it takes. People like to play a strong character.

There are two other takeaways here though: One is that you don't need to micromanage your skills and players really respond to the mental burden lifted there. Another is that being able to immediately use items you find in the dungeon is satisfying and fun for players.

It seem to me these last two are worth thinking carefully about for developers of crawl or crawl-like games. If it's more fun not to have to manage skills in the way you do in crawl, that suggests a lot of room for reform in standard crawl skilling. The recent level targeted training change is a step, but one implication of the experience with gnolls so far is that there is much more potential in this area.

To the second point above, if you can get a reasonably balanced system of weapons and spells without all the needless distinctions among 10 kinds of weapons and more kinds of spells, maybe having 25 skills is a bad idea. Discussion of crawl balance comes back so frequently to the concept of "investment." If you use something without investment, something's going wrong. Guys, it's a video game, not the commercials during a tennis major. "Investment" is the about the most tedious possible concept to bring into a video game. It's not just that it's prosaic to think about (and the game makes you think about it constantly, over and over again, micromanaging the menus every minute or two), it also hugely slows down your response to items you find, blowing away much of the fun of finding new and unusual things.

[edgefigaro]

@watertreatment

I really like skilling. I think its fun.

[watertreatmentRL]

Many people claim to think eating and identification are fun too. You still see people who float the idea of bringing back victory dancing sometimes. You have to bring a skeptical eye to people's self-professed preferences. There is a strong cognitive bias toward what exists or what has existed against unrealized possibilities.

[edgefigaro]

Uhh... Are you trying to tell me I don't think skilling is fun? That I might be wrong about me thinking skilling is fun? That I should be skeptical about what I profess to be fun? If I were to write paragraphs of explanation as to why I find it fun would it give my claim merit? Because I could, but i'd rather just say:

I'm not bullshitting you when I say "I think it is fun."

I'd really like you to take that at face value. It really isn't a very ambitious claim that threatens to rock the foundations of the arguments at hand, rather it simply attempts to be 2 cents.

[njvack]

Gn does serve as a little reminder that just maybe there are more weapon and spell classes than necessary. One thing that appeals to me a lot is that when I'm playing, something happens like finding the Plutonium Sword but it's on V:5 and I have like 24 skill in Axes so it's floor trash and that's frustrating.

If that frustration is bad*, two approaches to it are:

1: Have fewer weapon / spell classes
2: Have a species with Gn skill rules

I gotta play one of these.

* not all frustration is bad in games

[watertreatmentRL]

@edgefigaro: To try to keep this tangent brief, to make the claim "I like X" relevant to a discussion about "Y might be better than X," in the oppositional sense it is usually presented, you need to go further and say "I like X better than Y." In my experience, people who make the claim "I like X" here instead of what is called for, "I like X better than Y," are insecure in their preference for X or unwilling to fully consider Y. Hence the cagier "I like X" claim. Preferences are complex. People do not always know their own mind, especially in comparing what is familiar to what they have not tried or what does not yet exist. There's a lot to say about how this dynamic applies to discussion of crawl.

I would not say you're wrong in your belief that you like skilling. I understand its appeal well and have wasted a lot of time doing it. I doubt that a claim to like X expresses a considered preference for X over Y. Indeed, I think it suggests a lack of conviction either way.

[Siegurt]

Well, just to put a point on it, investment (in some fashion) is one of the fundamentals of what makes a game an RPG, you advance, make choices, and get better at stuff, without that it's simply not an RPG, it's a different genre (perhaps a tactical game)

RPG's are a popular enough form of game, that it's not hard to argue that *some* people enjoy the process of 'investing' more than games without said 'investment', it's also not hard to argue that some people don't enjoy it as much (who perhaps like tactical games better) Claiming one popular type of game is unilaterally better than another isn't really something that anyone can do with any authority (It's like claiming that blue is inherently better than yellow, even if you have a strong opinion on the matter, it doesn't make you right, it just means that's your opinion)

I suspect changing something so fundamental as the essential type of game that DCSS is might ostracize a large segment of people who like playing the type of game that it is, and might attract other people who like the other type of game that you suggest it could be instead.

There's nothing inherently wrong with removing the "RPG"-ness of DCSS, but It does make it a fundamentally different kind of game. There's sufficient evidence that people do enjoy the type of game that DCSS is presently, that I'd recommend anyone seriously interested in taking the "investment" out of DCSS should make a fork, and plausibly call it something different, as that new type of game doesn't really have a strong overlapping audience with crawl.

To be frank, for me, the tactics in DCSS don't make a sufficiently compelling game on their own that I would want to play it as much as I do presently, I'd rather go play hoplite or enyo if I'm looking for something closer to a pure tactical game without the "investment" portion.

That isn't to say that steps to make the process smoother, more automated, or less complicated would be unwelcome, only that if it stops feeling like I'm making the choices (or that there are no choices to make), I'm not going to remain invested for very long.

[Rast]

Manuals: One can argue this as an intentional weakness -- manuals simply don't work as fast.

That's fine, but it sucks to carry them around all game eating up your inventory.

[Majang]

The last few contributions to this discussion I found most fascinating. I am quick to say that I certainly enjoyed not having to make any skilling decisions in my recent Gn win. Now I started a new game, and have similar fun trying out new things, but somehow the novelty has worn off. I now know how far I can go with my skills as a Gn when I hit a certain stage of the game, and I have some leverage making stat decisions, not to speak of my initial background decision. Somehow I can't see myself playing more than three or four more Gn games, because they are, compared to other species, rather unilinear. For now that is fun, but it will become uninteresting soon.

That gets me into agreement with edgefigaro - I also like skilling. Not the tedious kind of skilling, with breakpoints written out in a notebook next to my computer mouse, and countless interruptions of the game to tweak the skills menue. I will never play that way. But I like to look at a species and a background, and to ask myself "how far can I get this character by pursuing this particular skill plan?" "How can I make this guy survive long enough to develop his full potential when reaching certain skill goals?" "What strategic decisions do I need to make (including a lot of strategic abandonment) to reach certain skill goals as soon as possible". When such a game works out (often after many frustrating failures) I am deeply satisfied with the game. Skilling is a big part of it, and it shouldn't be dropped.

But I'm fine having a species like the current Gnolls for experiencing the game and what it has on offer from a completely different angle.

[watertreatmentRL]

@Siegurt: I don't agree that "investment" is integral to any genre or subgenre to which crawl belongs. Many of the most popular RPGs have no concept of investment of experience in the sense crawl has (take Final Fantasy IV or The Legend of Zelda). The same is true of many roguelikes going all the way back to the beginning, e.g. moria. It would be more correct to say advancement in power through collecting items and/or gaining experience is a basic characteristic of RPGs and roguelikes. Then there's a separate critical question of whether RPG skill systems like crawl's are generally good -- here I would say there are more examples of failure than success.

I would also say that investment in the sense that it exists now was arguably not even what was going on in Linley's Crawl. Rather, I would say the idea was to simulate learning skills through practice and that the skill points were a technical device to control and balance that process. Linley clearly didn't intend for players to victory dance so as to control the allocation of skill points, hence "investment." Had Linley looked at recent actions to allocate points immediately, or devised something more subtle and difficult to game, rather than creating a pool that could be manipulated by the player through superfluous actions, things might look very different today. So I think investment is not very deeply embedded in what it is to be crawl, rather it is a development of recent work and something the culture surrounding crawl latched onto as an important concept.

You suggest that moving away from the concept of investment means undermining the connection with an existing playerbase and perhaps the very of core of what crawl is. All I can say is that it's already happening. Current gnolls reflect exactly the tendency away from investment of experience points I am suggesting should be explored. If you're going to quit over this, I guess the time is now.

Of course, you won't and neither will anyone else.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Arguably current skill system is more broken than Gnoll's autoskilling. For example, I don't see why killing monsters with fireball can train just a weapon skill and nothing else and it is what many players do with manual skilling.

[Majang]

I don't see why killing monsters with fireball can train just a weapon skill and nothing else and it is what many players do with manual skilling.

That's really just an objection from a flavour point of view. I can see how that bothers people, but it seems that arguments based on flavour don't carry much weight here any more. And I wouldn't want to go back to a place where DEWz are eternally doomed to low HP because they just can't train fighting.

[Shtopit]

Maybe part of the answers could be split into a skilling brainstorm thread?

I think that skilling might become very different, if we got the option of only training a skill to a certain number. Better and less keypressy.

As it is now, skilling might be better if we got allocable skill points when we level up. It would mean 27 times in which we have to deal with the skill menu, and I am not sure that it would be more times than now.

Anyway, the real problem with skilling is not knowing what skills do. They are very opaque.

[neil]

I think that skilling might become very different, if we got the option of only training a skill to a certain number. Better and less keypressy.

This was added recently by advil: press = in the skill screen.

(The UI was added a few commits after that one)

[pedritolo]

The last few contributions to this discussion I found most fascinating. I am quick to say that I certainly enjoyed not having to make any skilling decisions in my recent Gn win. Now I started a new game, and have similar fun trying out new things, but somehow the novelty has worn off

My thought exactly. This specie's gimmick probably makes it too strong/easy for it to have any lasting appeal.
On the other hand, the ability of quickly using something you find on the dungeon floor is really interesting. I'm sure someone has said this before, but why not simply give gnolls bad aptitudes, together with unlimited access to transfer knowledge? TN already has a 10% penalty on the transferred skill, so it wouldn't be abused too much, assuming that's even a problem (why would it?). Perhaps increase the transfer rate so that it would fully transfer in about 1 XL.
It steps on ash's toes? And so what?

[VeryAngryFelid]

My thought exactly. This specie's gimmick probably makes it too strong/easy for it to have any lasting appeal.

Why is it a problem provided we still have Mi and Tr who are OP and played the same way with all backgrounds and all gods? Gnoll at least can choose different spells and become a hybrid/caster easily.

On the other hand, the ability of quickly using something you find on the dungeon floor is really interesting. I'm sure someone has said this before, but why not simply give gnolls bad aptitudes, together with unlimited access to transfer knowledge? TN already has a 10% penalty on the transferred skill, so it wouldn't be abused too much, assuming that's even a problem (why would it?). Perhaps increase the transfer rate so that it would fully transfer in about 1 XL.
It steps on ash's toes? And so what?

I don't see how different it is from all other species with better aptitudes where you find an item and then train skills for it before you can use it.
Or do you mean the transfer will be instantaneous? That may be interesting/fun but then we can have another new species with that gimmick, Gn deserves its place in crawl IMHO.

[watertreatmentRL]

The gimmick itself does not make gnoll too strong or easy. That is an issue of the numbers plugged into the system. The possibilities for a gnoll skill system along the lines the devs have embraced range from the current setup all the way to no skill growth at all, which would obviously be neither easy nor strong.

As I've said before, the main problem with the gimmick in terms of replayability is that all gnolls converge to the roughly the same skill allocation by the midgame. I've suggested ways around that.

[emikaela]

It seem to me these last two are worth thinking carefully about for developers of crawl or crawl-like games. If it's more fun not to have to manage skills in the way you do in crawl, that suggests a lot of room for reform in standard crawl skilling. The recent level targeted training change is a step, but one implication of the experience with gnolls so far is that there is much more potential in this area.

i enjoy playing gnolls, but i would enjoy crawl as a whole a lot less if i was forced to play only gnolls. in other words, i like both x and y, why can't we have both?

i think the gimmick works because it breaks the rules of crawl and forces you to evaluate things in a different light. which is what well designed species should do imo.

[watertreatmentRL]

This seems unresponsive to what I said. I do not suggest outright removal of X in favor of Y. I say that Y suggests a lot of room for reform of X.

Put another way, people will talk up and down about how central skill management is to crawl, how everything falls apart if you get some capability without investment of skill etc. Then along comes Y. Y turns out to be pretty good, but it doesn't have the skill management and it doesn't have this idea of investing in some skill before getting full use out of items and spells. Y is still recognizably crawl. Maybe X could stand to be more like Y. Maybe some other thing Z could fit between them or somewhere else entirely, after all Y is a fairly straightforward variation on X and yet already you're getting somewhere new and kind of good.

For an example of a reform to X, as a gnoll in lair, you find a good weapon of a class you did not specialize in at the start and that is different from the weapon class you've been using all game. You switch to it immediately with almost no penalty. Everything seems to proceed more or less normally. You haven't broken the game, things are fine. So then you might ask: What if every character had this capability, common to the vast majority of RPGs (since this seems to be a tack people like here). What if there were just one melee weapon skill? Gnolls suggest strongly that this would be okay. It may even be good!

Does the ability to freely mix and match fire, ice, air, earth, and poison magic give gnolls some massive upper hand over other characters? Not really, the advantage, beside the imo excessive magnitude of these skills, really comes from being able to mix and match schools that do very different things, like fire, translocations, hexes, and summonings, without sacrificing physical skills. Could there be some softer mechanism of specializing in a particular kind of elemental magic than having five different schools, and therefore five corresponding magic schools to think about and fiddle with? There could be, I say.

Crawl is not going to fall apart if people get more creative or even more radical about the possibilities of reform, even of mechanics many people (mistakenly) think of as the core, unchangeable aspects of crawl. You can break the rules of crawl all day and it'll still be crawl.

[advil]

Would be great if a mod could split the stuff that's not immediately relevant to gnolls off into another thread.

[Siegurt]

This seems unresponsive to what I said. I do not suggest outright removal of X in favor of Y. I say that Y suggests a lot of room for reform of X.

Put another way, people will talk up and down about how central skill management is to crawl, how everything falls apart if you get some capability without investment of skill etc. Then along comes Y. Y turns out to be pretty good, but it doesn't have the skill management and it doesn't have this idea of investing in some skill before getting full use out of items and spells. Y is still recognizably crawl. Maybe X could stand to be more like Y. Maybe some other thing Z could fit between them or somewhere else entirely, after all Y is a fairly straightforward variation on X and yet already you're getting somewhere new and kind of good.

For an example of a reform to X, as a gnoll in lair, you find a good weapon of a class you did not specialize in at the start and that is different from the weapon class you've been using all game. You switch to it immediately with almost no penalty. Everything seems to proceed more or less normally. You haven't broken the game, things are fine. So then you might ask: What if every character had this capability, common to the vast majority of RPGs (since this seems to be a tack people like here). What if there were just one melee weapon skill? Gnolls suggest strongly that this would be okay. It may even be good!

Does the ability to freely mix and match fire, ice, air, earth, and poison magic give gnolls some massive upper hand over other characters? Not really, the advantage, beside the imo excessive magnitude of these skills, really comes from being able to mix and match schools that do very different things, like fire, translocations, hexes, and summonings, without sacrificing physical skills. Could there be some softer mechanism of specializing in a particular kind of elemental magic than having five different schools, and therefore five corresponding magic schools to think about and fiddle with? There could be, I say.

Crawl is not going to fall apart if people get more creative or even more radical about the possibilities of reform, even of mechanics many people (mistakenly) think of as the core, unchangeable aspects of crawl. You can break the rules of crawl all day and it'll still be crawl.

For myself, what I'm interested in is how engaged I am on a repated basis, If I look at the games that I've played over my lifetime (and it's a lot, I've tried at least 20-30 games a year for 35+ years) the ones I remain engaged in are the ones that I find I want to play over and over for long periods of time, If I break down time spent across game features, 'investment' comes out at the top of the list by a large margin (generally speaking 'long term strategy' of some sort), for me what I call 'exploration' (finding hidden niches, secret bugaboos and the like) comes in second, and a very close third is 'tactics' (being forced to think about positioning, types of abilities used strengths/weaknessess of enemies and so on) If I keep going down that scale I find things like 'reflexes' and even further down I see things like 'pretty graphics'

Now I suspect everyone has a different scale, and it's subjective, and malleable, and sometimes the parts of a game are more (or less than) the whole, but for myself, the thing that keeps me *most engaged* (through a lot of experience with it) is long term investment, for *me* that's core to why I play crawl as much I do, and for as long as I have, I know that's so because *across hundred of games* the ones I invest the most time in are the ones that have long term investment as a feature.

I also suspect the problem with the 'gimmick' of gnolls as-is is that they're too similar in terms of skills from one game to the next (once you've played a gnoll, the second, third etc. are more similar in terms of game play to each other than two of another race would be), and has nothing to do with how overpowered or easy they are.

[MainiacJoe]

I also suspect the problem with the 'gimmick' of gnolls as-is is that they're too similar in terms of skills from one game to the next (once you've played a gnoll, the second, third etc. are more similar in terms of game play to each other than two of another race would be), and has nothing to do with how overpowered or easy they are.

Help me understand what you're trying to say here, please. My impression is the exact opposite: removing the ability to specialize skill selection makes the floor god more relevant, and the randomness of floor god seems to provide a large portion of the game's replayability.

[njvack]

I also suspect the problem with the 'gimmick' of gnolls as-is is that they're too similar in terms of skills from one game to the next (once you've played a gnoll, the second, third etc. are more similar in terms of game play to each other than two of another race would be), and has nothing to do with how overpowered or easy they are.

You don't feel like the variability in item generation and god choice will provide enough variability in gameplay?

My take has generally been that once I've hit temple, or at least the end of Lair, my character is pretty well set on a path, skilling-wise. Neat items may spawn but I already have enough investment in my main build that switching doesn't make sense unless the item is Really Really Good. With Gn, you may as well change character "types" as you find things. Get a good conjuration book and an archmagi robe? Sure, drop that plate and start fireballing monsters.

I do agree with the "there's no long-term character development arc" thought, though I don't know that it makes Crawl less of an RPG to me. For me, games are RPGs as long as they support me "playing a role" which effectively translates to "does it lead to me telling a story?" For me, I think loot and gods and dungeon generation will fill that role even without skill choices.

(kinda ninja'd by ManiacJoe)

[bel]

Disclaimer: I have not played new Gnoll. Some thoughts, however.

One must be careful of just looking at the power level of gnoll and concluding that it's good. It might be good to consider whether newnewnew Gnoll meets the original goals outlined:

The main concept I wanted (when I saw the original species proposal I based Cyno off of) was a species that was literally designed to adapt to anything they find: they would have not only the freedom to adapt (a flat apt across the board) but also be encouraged to adapt whenever they find something new (high apts), instead of discouraged due to low aptitudes, previous investments, and/or the time/experience cost to skill something new versus keeping the course. This train of thought leads to the drawback: the species is good at adapting to anything quickly because they HAVE to adapt to anything quickly, using all of their available tools for survival instead of just the ones they like/have training for.

Does the race indeed satisfy the original vision? How would we check? Is it really important to meet the original goal? Why did the chicken cross the road? Is there life after death?

Gnoll can, almost by definition, adapt to anything (leaving aside stats for the moment).

Do gnolls actually HAVE to actually adapt to anything, or is it the case that they are strong enough to simply use anything, and just have a wider variety of options to choose from? Do people find that, at some point, they needed to change their ways depending on what exactly they find on the floor, otherwise they can't progress? If not, this would be a red flag to me.

[MainiacJoe]

Well if "The Game is Won By Lair"™ then nuGnoll sheer survival is not an issue. Even I can get a Gnoll to Lair consistently.

[Siegurt]

You don't feel like the variability in item generation and god choice will provide enough variability in gameplay?

No. I don't. In a non gnoll game you have to contend with not only item generation, but also item suitability given what you have invested in skill wise, meaning that any given item's liklihood of being useful is much larger for gnolls, for whom any given item is roughly equally useful from game to game.

Effectively "good items" are much much more common for gnolls, to the point where you can literally always count on: a good weapon, a good spell selection, a good selection of armours, good ability to take advantage of stealth/stabbing mechanics, and so on.

In a typical game you experience limitations not only due to the availability of good items, but due to the unsuitability of some of them (in part because of what you chose to invest in previously), which limitations you will experience from game to game (even with the same race and background) is one very large source of variability.

It isn't like there is *no* variation in between gnoll games, just not as much as there is in non gnoll games (maybe felids are close to gnolls for lack of variation, as they lose most of the variation that comes from the floor drops, they are kind of the other end of the spectrum from gnolls in that sense) for some people it might be enough to want to play a lot of gnolls, for me it's not.

That being said the difference between gnolls and *not-gnolls* makes them fresh and intersting when you *haven't* been playing a lot of gnolls.

[rigrig]

I'm liking them so far, running into a neat artefact and actually being able to use it is very nice.

If we want more variety, maybe we could mess with aptitudes a bit, based on background?
Something like lower all aptitudes to +7, but instead of levels your background gives +apts. +7 should still be plenty to use nice non-stereotypical items, or you could even deliberately use those for a self-imposed challenge.
(Not really thought it through, there will probably be a lot of level-0 splats because of no starting skills, and a bunch of ridiculously tough Fighters)

[4Hooves2Appendages]

There is a gap between 'being able to use anything' and 'being forced to use whatever you find'. That gap is largely set by the strength of the other aspects of the species.

If the species is very strong, then 'being able to use anything' turns into 'using what you like'. That could be melee, ranged, conjurations, summons, etc. I suspect players will gravitate to playing in a similar way to how they play most characters. For me that would be ranged/summons + support magic. (Incidentally, that works well with Gnolls anyway.)

If the species is very weak, then players are forced (or at least strongly encouraged) to use the very best things available. Unfortunately, that isn't a very wide mix of things. Summons come to mind.

If the species is somewhere in between, with increasing power more options become available, up to magic-less unarmed fighting on non-claw species.

I don't like the idea of either a very strong version, anything goes doesn't seem interesting, or a very weak version, because the game will be very deterministic. That means some form of balancing is required, which in my view could be difficult.

All that said, most players might not have a good idea of the relative power of different things in crawl.

[VeryAngryFelid]

No. I don't. In a non gnoll game you have to contend with not only item generation, but also item suitability given what you have invested in skill wise, meaning that any given item's liklihood of being useful is much larger for gnolls, for whom any given item is roughly equally useful from game to game.

Do you have the same feeling for middle/late game with Ashenzari? Or is it more fun because you still make decisions about knowledge trasfer and are still somewhat limited by XP and also can use 2h weapon and high level spells?

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't like the idea of either a very strong version, anything goes doesn't seem interesting, or a very weak version, because the game will be very deterministic. That means some form of balancing is required, which in my view could be difficult.

I agree with you but let's not forget that difficulty and balance is subjective. What is "balanced" for you is too hard for a new player and can be too easy for some top players.
I really hate that there are no explicit difficulty levels, it might be fun to play -30% HP Troll (melee glass cannon) or +30% HP Felid who can melee 90% monsters without using transmutations.

[watertreatmentRL]

Yeah, I don't see how you can make the arguments against gnolls being made now and not say the same of ashenzari skill boost. It looks like the classic "my favorite thing about crawl is not the thing I said it was last time you were advocating rethinking some aspect of crawl, instead it is the aspect of the game you are arguing to rethink today."

Using aptitudes to hack in long-term distinctions among gnolls of different backgrounds makes some sense given the commitments of the current gnoll implementation. A difference of 1 in aptitudes probably wouldn't do much, but if it were something like +6 across the board with +8 on one or two "main" skills for each background, this would deal with a lot of the issues in lack of differentiation among gnoll combos and this "too many good items/spells from lack of specialization" argument.

[MainiacJoe]

I discovered recently that the slow Invocations growth has an impact on choosing a gnoll's god. I had a D:2 Makhleb altar, usually a no-brainer, and then a couple floors later I realized I wouldn't be getting safe major demons until S-branches at the earliest I'm guessing. Now Makhleb is strong enough that one needn't train Invo much, but for other gods this will be a real problem. GnAK is the only background that gets any Invo boost at character creation.

[Siegurt]

Ash's skill boost isn't comparable to gnoll's aptitudes at all, it doesn't remove diversification, in fact at the very low end it amplifies it slightly (as your bonus is capped based your invested skill) and having invested in a particular set of skills, your skill investment diversification isn't damped by having bonuses to your skills, in fact you can specialize with slightly less cost because of those skill bonuses.

In terms of item availability, transfer knowledge is closer to gnoll's ability, since it lets you reskill in order to take advantage of new things, however there's a cost to Ash flexibility, a direct one (in piety and a small portion of the XP transferred) and an indirect one (you *lose* skill in the thing that you're transferring from) so using an very good crossbow, and after investing in the crossbow skill you might come across an amazing axe, you could transfer from crossbow to axe, but then you lose access to the crossbow, Gnolls have no such limitation.

Gnoll's build convergence and the additional flexibility available to Ash worshipers are things of a totally different nature, trying to equate one with the other is a shaky argument at best, and trolling at worst.

On a side note, I find the current incarnation of Gnolls a little easy, they might be slightly too powerful.

[thevogonpoet]

So I went for a complete power gnoll - an enchanter of Kiku.

So yes, one of the best backgrounds, one of the best gods, but I think they might be a bit too easy - you could probably reduce them to +6 and still have them be kick ass. Backgrounds contributing a few +8s to one or two relevant skills would be fun though.

I guess I would have to play like, lots more to assess their replay value, but it was certainly a fun run, with some unexpected moments - never before in crawl have i stood on a freshly cleared V5 in a personally enchanted GDA, and wondered if I should swap to a robe. Turned out I would be able to cast level 8 spells without wizardy, and although I quickly decided I would prefer to be a heavy armoured caster of level 6 spells, it was none the less interesting to even find myself wondering about it. And it wasn't just late game either... the feeling that I could just completely change the direction of my character whenever was a good feeling - definitely fun.

I am not sure how noob friendly they are going to be though - as they stand, they definitely aren't a challenge race, but by not needing to commit to a character development direction at all, I faced a lot more decisions than normal - every armour might be interesting, every weapon, every spellbook.

I carried around the autumn katana and a +9 demon trident of pain, as well as my dagger. It was only until Zot that I decided that the pain trident was definitely better than the katana for killing living dudes, but I still don't even know if thats true... I carried out pretty non rigorous tab experiments on Orb guardians, the trident seemed good. The katana also did the job though.

tl;dr: Yah, gnolls are fun and not very hard, but make comparing weapons even harder than normal, without fsim.

[watertreatmentRL]

Ashenzari skill boost gives you an absurd amount of skill levels along with an illusion of choice. Some people have a hard time seeing the difference between interactiveness and choice. It is true that you can do stupid things with the ashenzari boost, like rush fire storm a little bit faster than usual, but using it sensibly, though interactive, involves no more choice than a Berenstain bears CD-ROM storybook.

It's like the game gives you a plastic egg carton with holes in the bottom of five dimples and enough water to fill seven dimples, vs. the usual four without ash, and says: "Okay, now it's up to you, player, fill this egg carton as best you can." With gnoll, you get enough to fill 11 dimples, but you have to put the same amount in every dimple.

[MainiacJoe]

Yah, gnolls are fun and not very hard, but make comparing weapons even harder than normal, without fsim.

I've had trouble fsim'ing using 0.20 fsim because it doesn't turn off the cross training for gnolls and it's a real pain to get the skill levels to match the actual character.

[Vajrapani]

Just want to echo everyone's praise for New Gnoll. I like it a lot better than the previous version, and I definitely wouldn't mind if it made it into the stable version.

It felt pretty strong but not really overpowered, but then again I prefer to play more 'specialised' races (e.g Op, Mi,Dr) than a jack-of-all-trades with lots of options so that probably factored into my impression of Gnoll.

[svendre]

I've tried my first gnoll since they were changed to distribute xp to all skills evenly. It is level 27, currently alive, and I'm certain it can 15 rune if I want. My observations:

* Ridiculously powerful, especially so if the player is more experienced and knows how to take advantage of every skill and item. Despite less specialized skill numbers, being able to utilize and leverage all combination of gear and spells that are found without ever sacrificing long term development for short term gains outshines any race requiring skill training. I venture that the gnoll has been one of the easiest games I recall ever playing.

* Inventory management and stashing issues (being optimal, yet frustrating) are exaggerated due to the fact that the gnoll can make use of so many things it finds in one context or another.

* I agree with a comment made earlier, something along the lines that it seems like a race that will become fairly cookie-cutter in strategy. It promotes using what is stronger in crawl without any regard to any development considerations. It seems like a class which could point out what tactics are generally the strongest, but not in a complete way since it ignores trade-offs, i.e. all spell schools can be cherry picked for their best spells.

In my first game, I can say I have had some fun. But, the fun which I've had has been more like a novelty of "oh hey wow, look at how crazy effective this guy is everywhere." I can see that wearing off quickly. Maybe that's ok if it fills some niche to make new players feel better, get their first wins.. and more experienced players get a mode of play which feels like pseudo-wizmode. There are surely different difficulty levels between different races already. If gnoll rolls out in it's current state however, I would place it in the "super-easy, tutorial race" category and halve the score it generates.

[Majang]

Completed my first Gnoll 15-runer, with a Ziggurat. Just before finishing, I maxed out all 31 skills:

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-316-g7453ecb (tiles) character file.

12546321 Majang the Conqueror (level 27, 238/238 HPs)
             Began as a Gnoll Fighter on Oct 5, 2017.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes on Oct 12, 2017!
             
             The game lasted 18:59:21 (131906 turns).

Majang the Conqueror (Gnoll Fighter)              Turns: 131906, Time: 18:59:22

Health: 238/238    AC: 48    Str: 39      XL:     27
Magic:  54/54      EV: 38    Int: 48 (50) God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   14900      SH: 44    Dex: 45      Spells: 8/80 levels left

rFire    + + +     SeeInvis +   b - staff of earth
rCold    + + .     Gourm    .   c - +8 large shield {rC+ rF+}
rNeg     + + .     Faith    .   z - +8 orange crystal plate armour {Archmagi, Int+3 Clar}
rPois    .         Spirit   .   G - +3 crown of Dyrovepreva {rElec Int+2 SInv}
rElec    +         Reflect  +   v - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr    .         Harm     .   W - +0 pair of fencer's gloves {+Riposte Dex+3}
MR       +++++     Clarity  +   q - +2 pair of boots of the Assassin {Detection Stab+ Stlth++}
Stlth    +++.......             Q - amulet "Tagereg" {Reflect MR+ Dex+5 SH+4 SInv}
HPRegen  0.49/turn              u - ring "Gitul" {rN+ MR+ Int+2 Dex+4 SInv}
MPRegen  0.34/turn              f - ring of the Prince {rF++ rN+ Str+5 Int+4}

@: very slow
A: distributed training, fangs 1, thin skeletal structure 1, blink, clever 1,
magic resistance 1, strong nose
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer
a: Blink, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce
Religion


You escaped.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You were full.

You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 90 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 5 times, and saw 29 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 7 times.
You completed 1 ziggurat, and saw 27 of its levels.

You collected 18066 gold pieces.
You spent 3166 gold pieces at shops.

  Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 O Level 27 Short Blades
 O Level 27 Long Blades
 O Level 27 Axes
 O Level 27 Maces & Flails
 O Level 27 Polearms
 O Level 27 Staves
 O Level 27 Slings
 O Level 27 Bows
 O Level 27 Crossbows
 O Level 27 Throwing
 O Level 27 Armour
 O Level 27 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
   Level 0.0 Stabbing
 O Level 27 Shields
   Level 0.0 Traps
 O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Conjurations
 O Level 27 Hexes
 O Level 27 Charms
 O Level 27 Summonings
 O Level 27 Necromancy
 O Level 27 Translocations
 O Level 27 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 O Level 27 Ice Magic
 O Level 27 Air Magic
 O Level 27 Earth Magic
 O Level 27 Poison Magic
 O Level 27 Invocations
 O Level 27 Evocations


You had 8 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Shatter               Erth           #########.   2%          9    None
b - Lesser Beckoning      Tloc           #########.   0%          3    None
d - Death's Door          Chrm/Necr      #########.   1%          8    None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #########.   0%          5    None
f - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      #########.   2%          9    None
l - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      #########.   1%          8    None
m - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth #########.   0%          5    None
r - Borgnjor's Revivific  Necr           #########.   1%          8    None
s - Statue Form           Tmut/Erth      #########    0%          6    None
t - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          1%          8    None
w - Passwall              Tmut/Erth      #########.   0%          2    None
y - Apportation           Tloc           ######       0%          1    None

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Air Magic      |     1  2     3     4  5  6     7  8     9 10 11 12    13    14    15 16       27 | 27.0
Earth Magic    |     1  2           3  5     6  7  8  9    10 11    12 13       14    15 16    27 | 27.0
Dodging        |     1     2     3           4  6  7  8  9    10 11    12    13    14    15    27 | 27.0
Polearms       |     1        2     3  4  5  6     7  8  9 10 11    12    13    14 15    16    27 | 27.0
Staves         |        1     2        3  4  6  7  8  9 10    11    12 13    14       15    16 27 | 27.0
Stealth        |        1           2     4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11    12    13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Evocations     |        1              2  3  4  6  7  8  9 10 11    12    13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Invocations    |        1     2     3  4     5  6  7  9 10    11    12    13 14    15 16    17 27 | 27.0
Ice Magic      |        1     2        3  4  5  6  7  8  9    10    11 12    13 14    15       27 | 27.0
Transmutations |           1        2     3  4  5  7     8  9 10 11    12    13    14 15    16 27 | 27.0
Slings         |           2        3     4  5  6  7  8  9    10    11    12    13    14 15    27 | 27.0
Hexes          |           1  2     3  4  5     7  8  9    10 11 12    13    14 15    16       27 | 27.0
Long Blades    |           1     2        3  4  6  7     8  9 10 11 12       13 14    15 16    27 | 27.0
Crossbows      |           1        2  3  4  5     6  7  8  9 10    11    12 13    14    15 16 27 | 27.0
Summonings     |           1        2  3  4  5     7  8  9    10 11 12    13    14 15 16    17 27 | 27.0
Translocations |           1  2     3  4     5  6  7  8  9    10 11 12    13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Spellcasting   |              1  2  3  4  5  6  7     8     9 10 11    12    13    14 15    16 27 | 27.0
Conjurations   |              1  2     4  5     7  8  9    10    11 12    13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Necromancy     |              1        3     5     6  7  8  9    11    12 13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Unarmed Combat |              1     2     4  5  6  8     9 10    11 12    13    14       15 16 27 | 27.0
Bows           |              1  2     3  4  5  6  7  9    10 11       12 13    14 15    16    27 | 27.0
Charms         |                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11    12    13    14    15    27 | 27.0
Fire Magic     |                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8    10    11    12 13 14    15    16 17 27 | 27.0
Short Blades   |                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10    11 12    13 14    15    16    27 | 27.0
Armour         |                 7        8     9    10    11 12    13    14    15    16    17 27 | 27.0
Fighting       |                    7     8     9 10    11       12 13    14    15    16    17 27 | 27.0
Maces & Flails |                    2     3  4  5  6  7  9 10    11 12    13 14 15       16 17 27 | 27.0
Throwing       |                    1  2  3  4  5  7  8     9 10 11    12    13 14    15 16    27 | 27.0
Poison Magic   |                    2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11    12    13    14    15    16 27 | 27.0
Axes           |                    5     6  7     8  9    10 11 12    13    14       15    16 27 | 27.0
Shields        |                       7  8     9 10    11    12    13 14    15    16    17    27 | 27.0

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: War axe           |    58 |   148 |       |       |    25 |       |       |       |       ||   231
       Bite              |     4 |    21 |    28 |   141 |   267 |   218 |   195 |   192 |  2155 ||  3221
       Hand axe          |       |    67 |   240 |   628 |   554 |       |       |       |       ||  1489
       Whip              |       |       |       |    26 |    14 |       |       |       |       ||    40
       Lance             |       |       |       |       |   613 |   238 |     5 |       |       ||   856
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |     3 |    16 |   126 |   369 |  4283 ||  4797
       Broad axe         |       |       |       |       |     1 |   737 |   638 |   499 |  4323 ||  6198
       Eveningstar       |       |       |       |       |       |    21 |     3 |       |       ||    24
       Headbutt          |       |       |       |       |       |    19 |   113 |       |    20 ||   152
       Kick              |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   264 ||   264
       Sacred scourge    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   341 ||   341
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    33 ||    33
       Punch             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Throw: Tomahawk          |       |       |     6 |    39 |    65 |     9 |    40 |       |       ||   159
       Javelin           |       |       |       |     4 |    16 |     1 |    14 |    50 |   344 ||   429
 Cast: Corona            |       |       |       |    24 |       |       |       |       |       ||    24
       Shock             |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     2
       Summon Lightning  |       |       |       |     1 |    12 |       |       |       |       ||    13
       Lee's Rapid Decon |       |       |       |       |    41 |    32 |    39 |    35 |   276 ||   423
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |       |       |    32 |     8 |     8 |    11 |    12 ||    71
       Poisonous Vapours |       |       |       |       |    24 |    74 |     3 |       |     1 ||   102
       Sandblast         |       |       |       |       |    11 |    25 |     5 |       |       ||    41
       Bolt of Magma     |       |       |       |       |     2 |    30 |    24 |    50 |   237 ||   343
       Airstrike         |       |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       |       |     2 ||     4
       Statue Form       |       |       |       |       |       |    68 |    32 |    52 |   102 ||   254
       Lesser Beckoning  |       |       |       |       |       |    15 |       |       |    24 ||    39
       Iron Shot         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    38 |   357 ||   395
       Apportation       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |   305 ||   308
       Shatter           |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   224 ||   224
       Fire Storm        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   211 ||   211
       Lehudib's Crystal |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   202 ||   202
       Controlled Blink  |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    40 ||    40
       Ignition          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    37 ||    37
       Passwall          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    23 ||    23
       Death's Door      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
       Borgnjor's Revivi |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
Invok: Slouch            |       |       |       |     4 |     2 |     6 |       |     2 |    14 ||    28
       Bend Time         |       |       |       |     2 |     2 |       |       |       |     5 ||     9
       Temporal Distorti |       |       |       |       |       |     3 |       |       |     3 ||     6
       Step From Time    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Abil: Evoke Flight      |       |       |       |       |       |    10 |       |       |       ||    10
       Evoke Invisibilit |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     9 |    10 |     8 |     2 |     3 |     9 ||    41
       Lamp of fire      |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     1 ||     2
       Crystal ball of e |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   569 ||   569
       Staff of Dispater |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
       Phantom mirror    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     5 ||     5
       Phial of floods   |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
  Use: Scroll            |       |       |    13 |     7 |    20 |    14 |     9 |    11 |   161 ||   235
       Potion            |       |       |     8 |     5 |     7 |     2 |     2 |       |    88 ||   112
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |       |       |     4 |     3 |     2 |     4 |    66 ||    79
       Sleeping          |       |       |       |       |     3 |    31 |    47 |    12 |    54 ||   147
       Petrified         |       |       |       |       |    15 |       |       |     7 |       ||    22
       Petrifying        |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |     2 |     1 ||     4
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       ||     1
       Invisible         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     8 ||     8
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
  Eat: Chunk             |       |     8 |     7 |    16 |    23 |    49 |    25 |    15 |    85 ||   228
       Fruit             |       |       |       |     2 |       |     8 |       |     4 |    64 ||    78
       Royal jelly       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    19 ||    19
       Bread ration      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
       Meat ration       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
Armor: Scale mail        |    30 |    65 |    54 |       |       |       |       |       |       ||   149
       Chain mail        |       |       |     6 |   111 |   403 |    13 |       |       |       ||   533
       Plate armour      |       |       |       |    96 |       |       |       |       |   916 ||  1012
       Skin              |       |       |       |       |       |   312 |   249 |   463 |   499 ||  1523
       Troll leather arm |       |       |       |       |       |    28 |    31 |    16 |       ||    75
       Acid dragon scale |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   115 ||   115
       Crystal plate arm |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   290 ||   290
       Shadow dragon sca |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Dodge: Dodged            |    25 |    61 |    62 |   251 |   662 |   957 |  1014 |  1590 |  5012 ||  9634
       Deflected         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    48 ||    48
Block: Shield            |    35 |   129 |   140 |   557 |  1000 |  1464 |  1086 |  1426 |  5970 || 11807
       Reflection        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    36 |   259 ||   295
       Large shield      |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |  5808 ||  5808
Rpst.: Staff             |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    71 ||    71
       Broad axe         |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |    39 ||    39
       Sacred scourge    |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     9 ||     9
       Demon whip        |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1


I somehow expected some kind of fanfare when all skill-training was completed, but crawl was quite prosaic about it. It still feels good to reach that point.
Needless to say, at the end of the game this character could do basically anything. The only limitations were provided by spell levels, inventory slots, and item generation.

[Majang]

Just downloaded the most recent build, and it looks like the devs are still tweaking the species. Invocations is now +9, and all magic schools (except Spellcasting) are now +6. The rest is still at +8. I guess we had it coming.

[svendre]

Just downloaded the most recent build, and it looks like the devs are still tweaking the species. Invocations is now +9, and all magic schools (except Spellcasting) are now +6. The rest is still at +8. I guess we had it coming.

I was in the middle of a game (now finished 15 runes), and I could cast level 9's in gold dragon armour at 45%-50%. I applied a patch after reloaded because spectators got one of my windows stuck, and then my cast rate was at 70-75%. I never raised all skills to 27 afterwards, probably due to the apt change mid-game, but by the end of the game, I was back down to about 50% cast rate. This was after clearing everything in the game, in good gear and with wizardry bonus. So pretty much, besides support spells along the way, new Gnoll is just going to be melee focus now. I don't see the point in putting points into INT now if it's not going to pay off in level 9's before the end of the game, or if that means I'd have to wear some weak armour to do it.

[Majang]

I don't see the point in putting points into INT now if it's not going to pay off in level 9's before the end of the game, or if that means I'd have to wear some weak armour to do it.

The obvious solution to that is, of course, Comrade Chei.

[nago]

Or not use gda.
Or cast lv. 9 spells.
Or try to do both at same time.

[edgefigaro]

Sometimes it's really hard to tell if a post is sarcastic.

[Roderic]

Just testing the waters so that it's too soon to make an assessment. I have a doubt, if I get any species and I set the skills to manual mode and I turn on every skill, wouldn't I be having the same "gnoll experience"? If I can replicate the same behaviour with the skill menu in a particular challenging configuration, I don't see the point on a species focused on this, save for the gimmick of the detection, which I can get with Ash and for me it seems rather shoehorned or put just because.

Unless I'm losing something, the current gnoll doesn't offer anything that I cannot replicate with the skill management for any species, ofc with more challenging apts.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Unless I'm losing something, the current gnoll doesn't offer anything that I cannot replicate with the skill management for any species, ofc with more challenging apts.

You cannot have 6 levels in Fire magic when you find first book with Fire spell as a Fighter background. Or 8 levels in crossbow when you find first crossbow.

[Fingolfin]

Just testing the waters so that it's too soon to make an assessment. I have a doubt, if I get any species and I set the skills to manual mode and I turn on every skill, wouldn't I be having the same "gnoll experience"?

Not quite: with *normal* species, you cannot train most skills if you don't have any item/spell/ability that requires its use (e.g. can't train Invo with Trog/Ru/.../Atheism, can't train Axes if you don't have an axe...) whereas Gnolls train everything all the time. Also, Gnoll's apts are way, way, way higher than any other species' so it would be much harder.

[nago]

Just testing the waters so that it's too soon to make an assessment. I have a doubt, if I get any species and I set the skills to manual mode and I turn on every skill, wouldn't I be having the same "gnoll experience"? If I can replicate the same behaviour with the skill menu in a particular challenging configuration, I don't see the point on a species focused on this, save for the gimmick of the detection, which I can get with Ash and for me it seems rather shoehorned or put just because.

Unless I'm losing something, the current gnoll doesn't offer anything that I cannot replicate with the skill management for any species, ofc with more challenging apts.

No, you would have a char with awful skills all the game - if somehow you could get a Hu to Zot with this conduit, I doubt he would have more than 8/10 level in each skill - I think this is testable somehow via wiz mode.
Anyway, if you play a Gn you can easily see how its experience is quite different from any other race and currently very worth to be present in the game, barring some minor adjustment (in my opinion).

The major problem with the current version of Gn is that most of them will be quite similar chars in late game (1h+shield +same set of good spells, etc), but the novelty of early\medium game, depending on loot etc is good enough to offset that, for me. (anyway most of chars tend to be similar in late game)

[bhauth]

My feedback on gnolls is: make Ice Elementalist and Wizard recommended backgrounds, and remove Transmuter.