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Barkeep
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Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Barkeep
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Tomb Titivator
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Tomb Titivator
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Barkeep
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Tartarus Sorceror
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ohmi wrote:Manuals: One can argue this as an intentional weakness -- manuals simply don't work as fast.
Crypt Cleanser
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Crypt Cleanser
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:I don't see why killing monsters with fireball can train just a weapon skill and nothing else and it is what many players do with manual skilling.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Dungeon Master
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Location: Lexington, KY, US
Shtopit wrote:I think that skilling might become very different, if we got the option of only training a skill to a certain number. Better and less keypressy.
Shoals Surfer
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Majang wrote:The last few contributions to this discussion I found most fascinating. I am quick to say that I certainly enjoyed not having to make any skilling decisions in my recent Gn win. Now I started a new game, and have similar fun trying out new things, but somehow the novelty has worn off
Ziggurat Zagger
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pedritolo wrote:My thought exactly. This specie's gimmick probably makes it too strong/easy for it to have any lasting appeal.
On the other hand, the ability of quickly using something you find on the dungeon floor is really interesting. I'm sure someone has said this before, but why not simply give gnolls bad aptitudes, together with unlimited access to transfer knowledge? TN already has a 10% penalty on the transferred skill, so it wouldn't be abused too much, assuming that's even a problem (why would it?). Perhaps increase the transfer rate so that it would fully transfer in about 1 XL.
It steps on ash's toes? And so what?
Vaults Vanquisher
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Swamp Slogger
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watertreatmentRL wrote:It seem to me these last two are worth thinking carefully about for developers of crawl or crawl-like games. If it's more fun not to have to manage skills in the way you do in crawl, that suggests a lot of room for reform in standard crawl skilling. The recent level targeted training change is a step, but one implication of the experience with gnolls so far is that there is much more potential in this area.
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Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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watertreatmentRL wrote:This seems unresponsive to what I said. I do not suggest outright removal of X in favor of Y. I say that Y suggests a lot of room for reform of X.
Put another way, people will talk up and down about how central skill management is to crawl, how everything falls apart if you get some capability without investment of skill etc. Then along comes Y. Y turns out to be pretty good, but it doesn't have the skill management and it doesn't have this idea of investing in some skill before getting full use out of items and spells. Y is still recognizably crawl. Maybe X could stand to be more like Y. Maybe some other thing Z could fit between them or somewhere else entirely, after all Y is a fairly straightforward variation on X and yet already you're getting somewhere new and kind of good.
For an example of a reform to X, as a gnoll in lair, you find a good weapon of a class you did not specialize in at the start and that is different from the weapon class you've been using all game. You switch to it immediately with almost no penalty. Everything seems to proceed more or less normally. You haven't broken the game, things are fine. So then you might ask: What if every character had this capability, common to the vast majority of RPGs (since this seems to be a tack people like here). What if there were just one melee weapon skill? Gnolls suggest strongly that this would be okay. It may even be good!
Does the ability to freely mix and match fire, ice, air, earth, and poison magic give gnolls some massive upper hand over other characters? Not really, the advantage, beside the imo excessive magnitude of these skills, really comes from being able to mix and match schools that do very different things, like fire, translocations, hexes, and summonings, without sacrificing physical skills. Could there be some softer mechanism of specializing in a particular kind of elemental magic than having five different schools, and therefore five corresponding magic schools to think about and fiddle with? There could be, I say.
Crawl is not going to fall apart if people get more creative or even more radical about the possibilities of reform, even of mechanics many people (mistakenly) think of as the core, unchangeable aspects of crawl. You can break the rules of crawl all day and it'll still be crawl.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Siegurt wrote:I also suspect the problem with the 'gimmick' of gnolls as-is is that they're too similar in terms of skills from one game to the next (once you've played a gnoll, the second, third etc. are more similar in terms of game play to each other than two of another race would be), and has nothing to do with how overpowered or easy they are.
Barkeep
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Siegurt wrote:I also suspect the problem with the 'gimmick' of gnolls as-is is that they're too similar in terms of skills from one game to the next (once you've played a gnoll, the second, third etc. are more similar in terms of game play to each other than two of another race would be), and has nothing to do with how overpowered or easy they are.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Floodkiller wrote:The main concept I wanted (when I saw the original species proposal I based Cyno off of) was a species that was literally designed to adapt to anything they find: they would have not only the freedom to adapt (a flat apt across the board) but also be encouraged to adapt whenever they find something new (high apts), instead of discouraged due to low aptitudes, previous investments, and/or the time/experience cost to skill something new versus keeping the course. This train of thought leads to the drawback: the species is good at adapting to anything quickly because they HAVE to adapt to anything quickly, using all of their available tools for survival instead of just the ones they like/have training for.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Ziggurat Zagger
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njvack wrote:You don't feel like the variability in item generation and god choice will provide enough variability in gameplay?
Swamp Slogger
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Abyss Ambulator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Siegurt wrote:No. I don't. In a non gnoll game you have to contend with not only item generation, but also item suitability given what you have invested in skill wise, meaning that any given item's liklihood of being useful is much larger for gnolls, for whom any given item is roughly equally useful from game to game.
Ziggurat Zagger
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4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I don't like the idea of either a very strong version, anything goes doesn't seem interesting, or a very weak version, because the game will be very deterministic. That means some form of balancing is required, which in my view could be difficult.
Vaults Vanquisher
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Vaults Vanquisher
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Tartarus Sorceror
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thevogonpoet wrote:Yah, gnolls are fun and not very hard, but make comparing weapons even harder than normal, without fsim.
Shoals Surfer
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Crypt Cleanser
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Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-316-g7453ecb (tiles) character file.
12546321 Majang the Conqueror (level 27, 238/238 HPs)
Began as a Gnoll Fighter on Oct 5, 2017.
Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
Escaped with the Orb
... and 15 runes on Oct 12, 2017!
The game lasted 18:59:21 (131906 turns).
Majang the Conqueror (Gnoll Fighter) Turns: 131906, Time: 18:59:22
Health: 238/238 AC: 48 Str: 39 XL: 27
Magic: 54/54 EV: 38 Int: 48 (50) God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold: 14900 SH: 44 Dex: 45 Spells: 8/80 levels left
rFire + + + SeeInvis + b - staff of earth
rCold + + . Gourm . c - +8 large shield {rC+ rF+}
rNeg + + . Faith . z - +8 orange crystal plate armour {Archmagi, Int+3 Clar}
rPois . Spirit . G - +3 crown of Dyrovepreva {rElec Int+2 SInv}
rElec + Reflect + v - scarf {rC+ rF+}
rCorr . Harm . W - +0 pair of fencer's gloves {+Riposte Dex+3}
MR +++++ Clarity + q - +2 pair of boots of the Assassin {Detection Stab+ Stlth++}
Stlth +++....... Q - amulet "Tagereg" {Reflect MR+ Dex+5 SH+4 SInv}
HPRegen 0.49/turn u - ring "Gitul" {rN+ MR+ Int+2 Dex+4 SInv}
MPRegen 0.34/turn f - ring of the Prince {rF++ rN+ Str+5 Int+4}
@: very slow
A: distributed training, fangs 1, thin skeletal structure 1, blink, clever 1,
magic resistance 1, strong nose
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer
a: Blink, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce
Religion
You escaped.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You were full.
You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 90 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 5 times, and saw 29 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 7 times.
You completed 1 ziggurat, and saw 27 of its levels.
You collected 18066 gold pieces.
You spent 3166 gold pieces at shops.
Skills:
O Level 27 Fighting
O Level 27 Short Blades
O Level 27 Long Blades
O Level 27 Axes
O Level 27 Maces & Flails
O Level 27 Polearms
O Level 27 Staves
O Level 27 Slings
O Level 27 Bows
O Level 27 Crossbows
O Level 27 Throwing
O Level 27 Armour
O Level 27 Dodging
O Level 27 Stealth
Level 0.0 Stabbing
O Level 27 Shields
Level 0.0 Traps
O Level 27 Unarmed Combat
O Level 27 Spellcasting
O Level 27 Conjurations
O Level 27 Hexes
O Level 27 Charms
O Level 27 Summonings
O Level 27 Necromancy
O Level 27 Translocations
O Level 27 Transmutations
O Level 27 Fire Magic
O Level 27 Ice Magic
O Level 27 Air Magic
O Level 27 Earth Magic
O Level 27 Poison Magic
O Level 27 Invocations
O Level 27 Evocations
You had 8 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:
Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger
a - Shatter Erth #########. 2% 9 None
b - Lesser Beckoning Tloc #########. 0% 3 None
d - Death's Door Chrm/Necr #########. 1% 8 None
e - Lee's Rapid Deconstr Erth #########. 0% 5 None
f - Fire Storm Conj/Fire #########. 2% 9 None
l - Lehudib's Crystal Sp Conj/Erth #########. 1% 8 None
m - Bolt of Magma Conj/Fire/Erth #########. 0% 5 None
r - Borgnjor's Revivific Necr #########. 1% 8 None
s - Statue Form Tmut/Erth ######### 0% 6 None
t - Controlled Blink Tloc N/A 1% 8 None
w - Passwall Tmut/Erth #########. 0% 2 None
y - Apportation Tloc ###### 0% 1 None
Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Air Magic | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Earth Magic | 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Dodging | 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 27 | 27.0
Polearms | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Staves | 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Stealth | 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Evocations | 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Invocations | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Ice Magic | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 27 | 27.0
Transmutations | 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Slings | 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 27 | 27.0
Hexes | 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Long Blades | 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Crossbows | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Summonings | 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Translocations | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Spellcasting | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Conjurations | 1 2 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Necromancy | 1 3 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Unarmed Combat | 1 2 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Bows | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Charms | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 27 | 27.0
Fire Magic | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Short Blades | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Armour | 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Fighting | 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Maces & Flails | 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Throwing | 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Poison Magic | 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Axes | 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 27 | 27.0
Shields | 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 27 | 27.0
Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: War axe | 58 | 148 | | | 25 | | | | || 231
Bite | 4 | 21 | 28 | 141 | 267 | 218 | 195 | 192 | 2155 || 3221
Hand axe | | 67 | 240 | 628 | 554 | | | | || 1489
Whip | | | | 26 | 14 | | | | || 40
Lance | | | | | 613 | 238 | 5 | | || 856
Staff | | | | | 3 | 16 | 126 | 369 | 4283 || 4797
Broad axe | | | | | 1 | 737 | 638 | 499 | 4323 || 6198
Eveningstar | | | | | | 21 | 3 | | || 24
Headbutt | | | | | | 19 | 113 | | 20 || 152
Kick | | | | | | | | | 264 || 264
Sacred scourge | | | | | | | | | 341 || 341
Demon whip | | | | | | | | | 33 || 33
Punch | | | | | | | | | 1 || 1
Throw: Tomahawk | | | 6 | 39 | 65 | 9 | 40 | | || 159
Javelin | | | | 4 | 16 | 1 | 14 | 50 | 344 || 429
Cast: Corona | | | | 24 | | | | | || 24
Shock | | | | 1 | 1 | | | | || 2
Summon Lightning | | | | 1 | 12 | | | | || 13
Lee's Rapid Decon | | | | | 41 | 32 | 39 | 35 | 276 || 423
Stone Arrow | | | | | 32 | 8 | 8 | 11 | 12 || 71
Poisonous Vapours | | | | | 24 | 74 | 3 | | 1 || 102
Sandblast | | | | | 11 | 25 | 5 | | || 41
Bolt of Magma | | | | | 2 | 30 | 24 | 50 | 237 || 343
Airstrike | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | 2 || 4
Statue Form | | | | | | 68 | 32 | 52 | 102 || 254
Lesser Beckoning | | | | | | 15 | | | 24 || 39
Iron Shot | | | | | | | | 38 | 357 || 395
Apportation | | | | | | | | 3 | 305 || 308
Shatter | | | | | | | | | 224 || 224
Fire Storm | | | | | | | | | 211 || 211
Lehudib's Crystal | | | | | | | | | 202 || 202
Controlled Blink | | | | | | | | | 40 || 40
Ignition | | | | | | | | | 37 || 37
Passwall | | | | | | | | | 23 || 23
Death's Door | | | | | | | | | 3 || 3
Borgnjor's Revivi | | | | | | | | | 1 || 1
Invok: Slouch | | | | 4 | 2 | 6 | | 2 | 14 || 28
Bend Time | | | | 2 | 2 | | | | 5 || 9
Temporal Distorti | | | | | | 3 | | | 3 || 6
Step From Time | | | | | | | | | 1 || 1
Abil: Evoke Flight | | | | | | 10 | | | || 10
Evoke Invisibilit | | | | | | | | | 5 || 5
Evoke: Wand | | | | 9 | 10 | 8 | 2 | 3 | 9 || 41
Lamp of fire | | | | | | 1 | | | 1 || 2
Crystal ball of e | | | | | | | | | 569 || 569
Staff of Dispater | | | | | | | | | 5 || 5
Phantom mirror | | | | | | | | | 5 || 5
Phial of floods | | | | | | | | | 2 || 2
Use: Scroll | | | 13 | 7 | 20 | 14 | 9 | 11 | 161 || 235
Potion | | | 8 | 5 | 7 | 2 | 2 | | 88 || 112
Stab: Distracted | | | | | 4 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 66 || 79
Sleeping | | | | | 3 | 31 | 47 | 12 | 54 || 147
Petrified | | | | | 15 | | | 7 | || 22
Petrifying | | | | | 1 | | | 2 | 1 || 4
Held in net/web | | | | | | 1 | | | || 1
Invisible | | | | | | | | | 8 || 8
Paralysed | | | | | | | | | 2 || 2
Eat: Chunk | | 8 | 7 | 16 | 23 | 49 | 25 | 15 | 85 || 228
Fruit | | | | 2 | | 8 | | 4 | 64 || 78
Royal jelly | | | | | | | | | 19 || 19
Bread ration | | | | | | | | | 4 || 4
Meat ration | | | | | | | | | 2 || 2
Armor: Scale mail | 30 | 65 | 54 | | | | | | || 149
Chain mail | | | 6 | 111 | 403 | 13 | | | || 533
Plate armour | | | | 96 | | | | | 916 || 1012
Skin | | | | | | 312 | 249 | 463 | 499 || 1523
Troll leather arm | | | | | | 28 | 31 | 16 | || 75
Acid dragon scale | | | | | | | | | 115 || 115
Crystal plate arm | | | | | | | | | 290 || 290
Shadow dragon sca | | | | | | | | | 3 || 3
Dodge: Dodged | 25 | 61 | 62 | 251 | 662 | 957 | 1014 | 1590 | 5012 || 9634
Deflected | | | | | | | | | 48 || 48
Block: Shield | 35 | 129 | 140 | 557 | 1000 | 1464 | 1086 | 1426 | 5970 || 11807
Reflection | | | | | | | | 36 | 259 || 295
Large shield | | | | | | | | | 5808 || 5808
Rpst.: Staff | | | | | | | | | 71 || 71
Broad axe | | | | | | | | | 39 || 39
Sacred scourge | | | | | | | | | 9 || 9
Demon whip | | | | | | | | | 1 || 1
Crypt Cleanser
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Blades Runner
Posts: 616
Joined: Thursday, 25th October 2012, 03:19
Majang wrote:Just downloaded the most recent build, and it looks like the devs are still tweaking the species. Invocations is now +9, and all magic schools (except Spellcasting) are now +6. The rest is still at +8. I guess we had it coming.
Crypt Cleanser
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Joined: Monday, 24th April 2017, 11:46
svendre wrote:I don't see the point in putting points into INT now if it's not going to pay off in level 9's before the end of the game, or if that means I'd have to wear some weak armour to do it.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Tomb Titivator
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Crypt Cleanser
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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Roderic wrote:Unless I'm losing something, the current gnoll doesn't offer anything that I cannot replicate with the skill management for any species, ofc with more challenging apts.
Slime Squisher
Posts: 344
Joined: Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 19:56
Location: France
Roderic wrote:Just testing the waters so that it's too soon to make an assessment. I have a doubt, if I get any species and I set the skills to manual mode and I turn on every skill, wouldn't I be having the same "gnoll experience"?
Cocytus Succeeder
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31
Roderic wrote:Just testing the waters so that it's too soon to make an assessment. I have a doubt, if I get any species and I set the skills to manual mode and I turn on every skill, wouldn't I be having the same "gnoll experience"? If I can replicate the same behaviour with the skill menu in a particular challenging configuration, I don't see the point on a species focused on this, save for the gimmick of the detection, which I can get with Ash and for me it seems rather shoehorned or put just because.
Unless I'm losing something, the current gnoll doesn't offer anything that I cannot replicate with the skill management for any species, ofc with more challenging apts.
Snake Sneak
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