Nerf Cleave


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 31st May 2017, 19:55

Nerf Cleave

7 tiles. That's ridiculous.

Make cleave cover only three tiles in front of your character. Also, make non primary targets take only half of a damage they should receive.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 31st May 2017, 20:08

Re: Nerf Cleave

I think cleave hitting all tiles around you is important to prevent interface issues, but I'd be willing to entertain a reduction in cleave damage. It is rather strong right now. I think it's 70%, although I could be off; 50% might be better?

Of course, you run into the age old problem of "well it's better to fight one thing at a time so cleave is always useless" argument, which is of course technically true but practically false as players will in fact end up fighting more than one thing often.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 31st May 2017, 20:09

Re: Nerf Cleave

But y tho? In general, the cleaving ability is counteracted well by the fact that axes require more investment in general for mindelay, and thus tend to be outperformed by other weapon types given a certain skill investment for raw DPS against one target (compare e.g. great maces against exec axes, lajatangs against exec axes, eveningstars against broad axes). As optimal play generally dictates that you should try to kite enemies into 1v1 situations as a melee character whenever possible, cleaving is more of a newbie trap than something overpowered, and it's best to view it as "a perk that can help you get out when you screwed up" than something that makes axes more powerful than everything else.

Non-primary targets already take reduced damage BTW. I'm not sure if it's 50%, but I'm sure it's reduced.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 31st May 2017, 21:15

Re: Nerf Cleave

Zap-zapper wrote:7 tiles. That's ridiculous.

Make cleave cover only three tiles in front of your character. Also, make non primary targets take only half of a damage they should receive.


Reducing the amount of tiles cleave affects leads to dumb things like swinging at an empty square because it lets you hit more enemies at once and it being optimal to do so despite the reduced damage on the cleaved targets (for example, boggarts won't exactly need 100% of your weapon damage to kill).

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Barkeep

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 02:49

Re: Nerf Cleave

I think axes are in a pretty good place. They're different from other weapon classes in a way that sometimes changes your tactics and is sometimes useful, while neither being super overpowered nor annoying to use (I'm looking at you, polearms).

I might actually advocate for axes to do somewhat less damage overall but cleave all tiles at 100% damage.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 07:17

Re: Nerf Cleave

njvack wrote:I might actually advocate for axes to do somewhat less damage overall but cleave all tiles at 100% damage.

I agree, because with reduced damage cleaving you are incentivized to choose which monster you want to get full damage.

Also full damage to just one monster only makes sense flavour-wise if the idea is that it is the first monster you hit. But if you have three monsters in front of you and hit the middle one, this would mean that you are swinging the axe 360 degrees starting from the monster in the middle. It seems silly.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 10:45

Re: Nerf Cleave

Does cleave attack all surrounding spaces even if some of them are empty?

If so, then every swing is 360°.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 10:49

Re: Nerf Cleave

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Does cleave attack all surrounding spaces even if some of them are empty?

If so, then every swing is 360°.


Works for this guy in all the games though...
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Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 1st June 2017, 12:24

Re: Nerf Cleave

Hmmm, if an axe swings through a square and there's nobody there to get injured by it, did it really pass through the square at all? Deep...

It seems kind of absurd though to say that you can always kite monsters. I mean, how's that working out for you in Cocytus?

I think though that finding the most appealing weapon and ruining it isn't really the way to go. I mean, if you think maces are boring, give good bonkers a decent chance to knock somebody out with them, or at least knock them silly. I mean, why not? -- if you can confuse a monster by having it walk into a cloud of stink bomb, or get an acid blob to be distracted by its Gozag-fueled lust for gold, then I don't see what is so unreasonable about a good knockout whack. Or if riposting seems underpowered, give folks a few more ripostes. The good thing about any changes this would have on play, potentially making players more powerful, is that you could always cancel them out by making the monsters even a smidge less stupid in their tactics.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 19:12

Re: Nerf Cleave

axes are dogshit if you arent playing a super heavy melee tank worshipping a gifting god
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 20:40

Re: Nerf Cleave

Branded battleaxes are readily available in D and are a viable endgame weapon.

Dipping into Hall of Blades is also a thing. Invis pots are great for a HoB scouting mission.

If you are having that much trouble finding a good axe, you can dip depths for frost giants. I'm not sure if this is ever a good play, but it is doable and fun.

Spider Stomper

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 21:17

Re: Nerf Cleave

kroki wrote:axes are dogshit if you arent playing a super heavy melee tank worshipping a gifting god


The can include stuff like a MuWz of Gozag. I mean, if you're afraid of the big bad warg you can always kite anyway. But if you can stand in the midst of a bunch of stuff, you don't get hellfired or fireballed, you can cast Irradiate and soften them up delightfully, or at least cast Mephitic on yourself and flee in any direction you want if you have to (then set it on fire with ignite poison). I mean, fighting with axes is maybe like having a bunch of fights at once, but using the same MP for all of them.

But the only one for me is the broad axe. The others are just not as good, except the two handed stuff which denies you shield, and to me it seems like reflection is NOT optional.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 2nd June 2017, 21:52

Re: Nerf Cleave

Chicken wrote:But the only one for me is the broad axe. The others are just not as good, except the two handed stuff which denies you shield, and to me it seems like reflection is NOT optional.

I've heard about how people liked broad axe as an end game weapon, so I figured what the hell, let's try one handed axes for the tournament. I found a nice war axe of electruction, and used it all game long. It took me until after I won the game to realize I had been using a war axe (damage 11) instead of a broad axe (damage 13). I might be slightly retarded. Regardless, the damage felt fine with the enchantment and electrocution brand, not to mention I was a HO of beogh so all the ally attacks. Still, when my allies met an untimely demise in Vaults:5 I was quite capable of finishing the game mostly alone (I had one warlord with me in Zot). And I wasn't even using a broad axe! Morgue here: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tason ... 100316.txt

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