Species pitch: Two-god-user


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Post Wednesday, 24th May 2017, 23:37

Species pitch: Two-god-user

Samsarans are pseudo-mortal, exotic humanoids who hail from a faraway land. There, they practice a henotheistic religion, worshiping the God-Of-A-Thousand-Faces, believing that all "gods" worshiped by mortals are simply avatars of their over-deity's various aspects. As such, rather than following an individual "god", they often pay homage to multiple aspects of their deity at once, so long as they do not absolutely contradict one another.

Samsarans are ghostly, frail people, being more attached to the spirit world than to ours. While their flexibility of faith grants great power to the truly devoted, their lack of connection to the world around them means that they advance in experience extremely slowly, though this connection also makes them decent with Air Magic, Necromancy and Translocations, as well as having advantages in stealth.


Advantages of a two-god species (i.e., the pitch):

Spoiler: show
One of my favorite things about DCSS has been the interesting build combinations and routes: one of my earliest memories of the game was trying to figure out the worst possible species/class combo, choosing Troll AE, and then realizing that it was actually a pretty damn good combo, as Swiftness and RMsl were phenomenal tools for a bloodthirsty troll. I've always spent a lot of time planning out possible builds, and on thing that's happened again and again is thinking, "Oh, maybe I could use [X god] to capitalize on this strength/shore up this weakness", only to immediately remember that I'd already chosen a god for the build. It didn't take me long to start drooling over how cool it would be to actually have a race like that... and then I thought, why not? Well, because it would likely necessitate changing the game's interface, simply to accomodate showing the two gods and two piety bars in the top right corner, morgue files, the religion screen, etc. Sadly, it's pretty much unavoidable, and it would probably be a pain in the ass in general. But it would be interesting, and in fact I think it would be in line with several of Crawl's design goals. The first, and most obvious, is of course replayability, but not just in terms of adding another species: it would be genuinely different, allowing for many unique playstyles that wouldn't otherwise be possible, with even more *meaningful decisions* for players to make in terms of how their build progresses. I know that I'm using a different context than the "meaningful decisions" in the design goals but I do think it's within the spirit thereof: one thing it would accomplish is make otherwise oft-ignored gods much more worth taking. Most likely having a power curve similar to a Demonspawn (awful early game, excellent late game), and not being shackled to a single deity, a god with a powerful * like Fedhas would be much more appealing; meanwhile, there would be many, many more situations where a Samsaran would be able to pick up Jivya at the bottom of the Lair, giving a greater niche to what are probably the two least commonly worshiped gods. Beyond this, they would be able to get away with picking any of the other more nuanced, less raw-power gods, by picking one of the "strong" ones alongside it.


How would it work?
Spoiler: show
Conflicts of Interest: Naturally, a Samsaran wouldn't be able to worship, say, both Dith and Qaz/Nem/Makhleb - using any of their primary abilities would quickly (albeit randomly) place the user under penance. Here's a list of which gods shouldn't be able to work with which others:

*The holy trio won't be able to work with any of the overtly evil gods: Kiki, Lugonu, Makhleb, Yred, who all either use Necromancy or consort with demons.
*Fedhas won't be able to work with Kiku.
*Trog won't be able to work with Chei, Kiki, Sif or Vehumet.
*As mentioned above, Dith won't be able to work with Qaz, Nemelex, or Makhleb.

I think that's all the ones that absolutely wouldn't work without significant changes.

What about obviously terrible combos, like Gozag and Fedhas, or Dith and TSO, (whose halo/umbra cancel each other out): I think in these kinds of situations it's best to err on the side of allowing it - this race is about allowing as many new and interesting options as possible, and who knows, someone might figure out how to make one of these oddball combos work.
What about Nem/Xom passively granting a !haste effect to a Chei worshiper, or a necromancy effect from a deck of destruction under one of the good gods?: To my knowledge (I probably didn't do enough research), this is always forgiven, or cancelled before it has to be. If not, such an interaction would either have to be changed, or not be able to worship those gods together.
What about Beogh and the good gods? Or Jivya/Xom with Zin? Or Fedhas and Kiku? Or Dith and Fedhas?: While these gods' flavors clash, none of their granted abilities would technically anger the other god. And to a Samsaran, they're all the same deity regardless. It's reasonable one could choose to worship both the good and evil sides of such a deity.
What about Chei and Wu Jian or Okawaru?: Really on the fence on this one. I'm not sure if Finesse or Serpent's Lash would actually be penance under Chei: after all, they're easily flavored as more "my extra speed comes from pure skill" (something Chei is okay with) vs. "my extra speed comes from temporal manipulation" (less okay). I wonder if that's actually in the code anywhere?

Piety: When having two gods who both would get piety from the same action (e.g. killing a creature), a coinflip would ensue, and only the selected god would actually gain that piety, signified by only one "[said god] appreciates your kill". This would add the strategic option of only choosing one god at first, building piety until you hit the threshold you want, and only then picking up your second god. Potentially the species might even not be able to take their second god until they reach a certain level of piety with their first. A similar situation could happen with gifts, so a Trog/Oka worshiper wouldn't get a massive flood of weapons... or, on the other hand, maybe they should!


Tentative other stats:
Spoiler: show
-10% HP, +0 MP, +5 MR/level, 4 S, 7 I, 7 D, +1 random att/ 4 levels. Other aptitudes (including experience) would be as a Demigod, but with +1 Stealth and +0 Air Magic/Necromancy/Translocations, and 0 Invocations. The magic skills are mainly for flavor, though they may unduly benefit Sif/Chei/Kiki, who would all be quite strong alongside another god to begin with. I also tried to avoid too much overlap with Demonspawn apts. Invocations are really just where they should be for a -1 to all apts race, and aren't raised above norm in order to avoid brainless skill allocation.



One problem the race would run into is having an abysmal early game, and a much stronger late game. Though there is already a race that more or less does this (Demonspawn), I don't think we need another one, particularly when the early game is generally much harder than the late game to begin with. I had a few ideas on how to balance this out, though they're all pretty bad and brute-force.

*Just give them rPois, explained by, once again, less of a connection to the mortal coil/physical realm; another option would be a permanent RMsl effect. These are both effects that are both rare and valuable in the early game, but tend to end up being less hard to come by/less valuable in the late game.
*Ban Necromutation, what with the whole reincarnation angle; Necromutation makes most of extended a cakewalk, and with 2 gods they'd be pretty damn good at that to begin with.
* A different sort of MP scaling - +2 MP, with a -10% MP mutation. More MP in the early game, less in the later game. Very brute-force, though.

Flavor-Based Ability - Reincarnation: Obviously, Samsarans are more or less based on Hinduism, and I thought a Felid-style extra life system would be cool, but based on reincarnation. Just copying the Felid ability outright would be more or less functional, though probably with much fewer bonus lives. Alternately, the Samsaran could, instead of losing a level, drop all their gear at their corpse, and reappear (X floors up/on D:1) with their starter gear. This would lead to a really fun experience of trying to retrieve one's gear, and maybe even scouring the rest of the dungeon for other items in order to make the trip safer. On top of that, in levels with lots of humanoid enemies, one might even return to their corpse only to find many of their items gone, and have to go looking for them. Probably be more trouble than it's worth, though, and it would unfairly penalize heavy armor users.
Beyond that, instead of being tied to levels, much like Dharma it could be tied to one's success within their role - maybe they'd get their first life upon reaching X stars in piety with one of their gods.


So, yeah, it's an idea I'd been toying around with for a while. I'm sure the whole thing is wildly impractical, unbalanced, and would absolutely never, ever happen - but I wanted it put it out there regardless.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 00:22

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

It's in the "not do" list, but who can say... Although I strongly doubt this will be anything else than thought gymnastics.

IMHO, such a race would work best if you had limited groups to choose from. Like this: a god can only work with three other gods. This way, you don't need to make acrobatics to make them fit.

So e.g. you start with Cheib. You take a look at other gods.
Trog, Oka give fast abilities, so you don't want them. Lugonu, Dith, Uska, Ru give positioning power, which is a huge advantage if you are giving up your speed, so you need to think about it. Xom is weird, and so it would make things hard to implement. Beogh is out.
What's left are TSO, Ashen, Ely, Fedhas, Gozag, Jivvy, Kiku, Makhleb, Nemelex, Quaz, Sif Muna, Vehu, Yred, Zin.

So choose three (keeping in mind how powerful the combo could be), then add Jivvy (Jiyva has no real incompatibility, and I think she should be worshippable in any combo, except Zin). So you have some replay potential, without having to fix god power interactions. Repeat the selection with all gods.

I understand the beauty of having a 24x24 combo, but playability should remain a concern. I'm mainly thinking Kiku + TSO: you do Kiku things by casting necro spells, which anger the good gods.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 00:39

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

There are... how many gods now? 25? That'd be about 300 possible combos for this race, many of which would need awkward little special cases so they wouldn't be excessively overpowered or break any game mechanics. All for one gimmick that probably isn't even all that exciting. That'd be a lot of developer time that could be put to better use even if the idea was actually good.

it would be genuinely different, allowing for many unique playstyles that wouldn't otherwise be possible


How so? Many of them would probably just overlap with a typical all-rounder mage, really. Or combos like Trog/Oka - they'd just replicate the same melee playstyle that the two gods individually offer anyway. A combo like Ru/Lugonu would give you almost all the tools you need to beat the game and shore up all your weaknesses that either god can't cover alone.

with even more *meaningful decisions* for players to make in terms of how their build progresses


The limitations or outright drawbacks chosen by a player when worshipping a god make for meaningful choices - depriving the player of having to cope with them would make for less meaningful choices, not more.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 02:42

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

@Shtopit: Well, of course it's nothing but mental gymnastics - but let's face it, most of the stuff on this forum is nothing but mental gymnastics.

Anyways, I addressed most of the god combos in the OP - most of them work together better than you'd think.

Malevolent wrote:There are... how many gods now? 25? That'd be about 300 possible combos for this race, many of which would need awkward little special cases so they wouldn't be excessively overpowered or break any game mechanics.

I can't think of any god combos that would be excessively overpowered. I really can't think of any that (assuming the chassis I listed) would be stronger than simply going MiBe^Trog or something. "Power level" balance between gods/species/classes isn't really a concern of the game to begin with - don't tell me you seriously think that Mummies are comparable to Deep Dwarves, or that Fedhas is comparable to Okawaru. Do the former groups have their niches? Absolutely. But they're absolutely not as strong as the latter.

All for one gimmick that probably isn't even all that exciting. That'd be a lot of developer time that could be put to better use even if the idea was actually good.

Yes, let me make it adamantly clear, this will absolutely not be a thing that happens. But I think that the simple theorycrafting potential of choosing multiple gods - like you said, that's 300ish combinations - that's pretty exciting to me!

How so? Many of them would probably just overlap with a typical all-rounder mage, really. Or combos like Trog/Oka - they'd just replicate the same melee playstyle that the two gods individually offer anyway. A combo like Ru/Lugonu would give you almost all the tools you need to beat the game and shore up all your weaknesses that either god can't cover alone.


Admittedly that was poorly worded, but most new species/gods/etc overlap in playstyle with pre-existing playstyles to begin with - it's the smaller nuances that make it interesting.

Hell, let's talk about a Trog/Oka Samsaran. So you have -10% HP, and generally bad combat apts, so you'll nevertheless have to play more cautiously than your standard melee race. On the other hand, you'll have multiple combat invocations to use, which gives the character more combat options than just beating their head against stuff, and having more weapon gifts ALSO gives the character more options. Granted, that wouldn't be all that interesting (generally speaking you'd just use Heroism any time you'd use berzerk anyways), but choosing between Finesse and Berzerk WOULD require some thought, and having to choose between combat buffs is generally more interesting than only choosing one, especially when they have costs associated with them to begin with. It's not great, but A: I can't imagine oka/trog would be that popular except with people who really aren't very creative (and they'll just spam mibe's anyways) and B: It IS something you chose specifically because it's not very interesting.

with even more *meaningful decisions* for players to make in terms of how their build progresses


The limitations or outright drawbacks chosen by a player when worshipping a god make for meaningful choices - depriving the player of having to cope with them would make for less meaningful choices, not more.


First of all, much of the added versatility and shoring up of weaknesses would have to be spent on dealing with having abysmal apts (particularly experience), and if ignored, it would be a significant limitation to cope with on its own. Second of all, 18/25 of the gods have significant drawbacks/hoops to jump through, and 8 of those gods' requirements and drawbacks are absolutely crippling/comprehensive - and I really think that most of the most popular gods for such a species would fall into the latter group. Doubling up on god conduct is, in many situations, its own thing to cope with.
Last edited by Gorgondantess on Thursday, 25th May 2017, 02:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 02:45

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Small note, but my feeling is that chei+oka would allow finesse because formicids are allowed to finesse despite not being able to haste.

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 04:02

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Gorgondantess wrote:don't tell me you seriously think that Mummies are comparable to Deep Dwarves, or that Fedhas is comparable to Okawaru. Do the former groups have their niches? Absolutely. But they're absolutely not as strong as the latter.
hoo boy
Gorgondantess wrote:But I think that the simple theorycrafting potential of choosing multiple gods - like you said, that's 300ish combinations - that's pretty exciting to me!
Exciting enough to be worth resolving hundreds of conflicts between abilities, conducts, and wraths, and exciting enough to be worth refactoring the entire religion code?

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 05:03

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

From a quick source search, the most complex current species by number of special cases is Felid, which has 78. Of course a lot of these are trivial special cases, like using "paw" instead of "hand" and so on. I expect the difficulty of implementing two-god species would be significantly higher, but not overwhelmingly higher. A lot of crawl's existing code would handle the addition of a two-god-species without much reworking.

Having said that, I'm not really sold on this idea. It might be simpler and nearly as fun to have a species or background which allows only Xom + <player choice>.

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 05:21

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Well on the one hand I could take a completely overpowered gamebreaking god like Fedhas and also take something that is actually fun. On the other hand I would probably just go Trog/Fedhas and become unstoppable while hating myself a little bit more with every degenerate step I take.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 06:11

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

duvessa wrote:
Gorgondantess wrote:don't tell me you seriously think that Mummies are comparable to Deep Dwarves, or that Fedhas is comparable to Okawaru. Do the former groups have their niches? Absolutely. But they're absolutely not as strong as the latter.
hoo boy


Yeah, Fedhas has the best *..... I mentioned that elsewhere in the post, I knew I should've jumped on the Chei hate bandwagon (wasn't gonna mention Xom coz inb4 "but he's an exception" or whatever, and I meant to say Trog I always get their names mixed up MY BAD OKAY. Point is that gods/species aren't exactly "balanced" in terms of power level I hope we can agree on that.

Exciting enough to be worth resolving hundreds of conflicts between abilities, conducts, and wraths, and exciting enough to be worth refactoring the entire religion code?


...it would probably be a pain in the ass in general


I'm sure the whole thing is wildly impractical, unbalanced, and would absolutely never, ever happen


of course it's nothing but mental gymnastics


And the sentence immediately before the one you quoted above:
Yes, let me make it adamantly clear, this will absolutely not be a thing that happens.


So, no.
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 14:54

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Gorgondantess wrote:And the sentence immediately before the one you quoted above:
Yes, let me make it adamantly clear, this will absolutely not be a thing that happens.


So, no.


So why not post in CYC instead?

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 15:46

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

chequers wrote:Having said that, I'm not really sold on this idea. It might be simpler and nearly as fun to have a species or background which allows only Xom + <player choice>.

Call the race "Killer Klowns" and give them a chaos branded unarmed attack :) (Actually this would be a fun April Fool's Joke, although it's mostly been done with Jesters)
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 15:58

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Siegurt wrote:
chequers wrote:Having said that, I'm not really sold on this idea. It might be simpler and nearly as fun to have a species or background which allows only Xom + <player choice>.

Call the race "Killer Klowns" and give them a chaos branded unarmed attack :) (Actually this would be a fun April Fool's Joke, although it's mostly been done with Jesters)

And KKCK would have two gods, both of them Xom?

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 17:50

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

There would be a really simple way to do a two-god user: have a race of Two-Faces who have an ability to Change Face. The two faces can have different abilities and different gods... probably even different attributes since each picks something as it levels up. The catch, of course, is that only one face gets XP, piety, etc. at a time, so someone switching has to put up with lower levels. It would kind of be like a hybrid character. There would still be some big boons, of course, like getting weapons from Okawhazzis and books from Sif Ilis, or switching to Elcabron to get healed then switch back to break all the rules... I don't know how the play balance would work out but there's always some way to cripple a race hard if the devs feel like it.

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 21:38

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

"really simple"

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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 22:44

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

btw how would piety work? 2 gods 1 piety?
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Post Thursday, 25th May 2017, 23:26

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

It's surprising how few people actually managed to read the first post. In the section titled "how would it work?", you could have read: "Piety: When having two gods who both would get piety from the same action (e.g. killing a creature), a coinflip would ensue, and only the selected god would actually gain that piety"

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Post Friday, 26th May 2017, 00:42

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

Shtopit wrote:It's in the "not do" list

actually, it is

Two-headed player species. In particular, no to two-headed playable ogres, double no to wearing two amulets at once and double double no to simultaneous religions.


Edit: completely misread that original sentence
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Post Friday, 26th May 2017, 12:39

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

"Piety: When having two gods who both would get piety from the same action (e.g. killing a creature), a coinflip would ensue, and only the selected god would actually gain that piety"


That' bad, it means that some combos are twice as powerful as other combos (e.g. two killer gods together gain piety half as fast as a killer + explorer god combo).

I think that such a race might have some room if it were completely cut off from spellcasting (but then what of kiku, vehu, and sif?).

Another option would be to make this race much more influenced by the gods it chooses than normal races. So its basic size is XS (spriggan-sized). If it goes Oka or Trog, it gets one size larger. It cannot normally train spellcasting skills, but it gains access to them if it worships vehu, kiku or sif. It cannot use weapons of holy wrath, unless it goes a good god (and maybe entwine this with size gain for the martially oriented TSO). Cannot improve attributes at level-up if not with Cheib, Ash and Ru (very questionable).

And so on. It would be a varied play experience, with the chance to go for different limitations.
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Post Friday, 26th May 2017, 20:32

Re: Species pitch: Two-god-user

I don't mind this proposal because the OP already mentioned right in the first post about how they know it isn't going to happen and they mostly just wanted to think about/talk about it.

Personally I'd think that Chei + Vehumet or even sif would be a really powerful combination, especially back when Chei's piety didn't decay. Having two gods with piety decay is going to become a significant hurdle when you reduce piety by 50%. Sif's infinite mana is pretty helpful because chei's actives are very high in mana cost - there have been a few times I thought I could slouch a pack 2-3 times and clear everything, and then some things survived, and now I don't have 10 mana to use step from time anymore. Plus then I could guarantee statue form from a sif book if the floor god is being mean to me.

As far as other overpowered builds go, I could easily see any melee god + any necromancy god stacking really well, so either Trog/Okawaru/Makhleb for melee gods and then Kiku/Yred for undead gods, or Beogh if you want to go living allies. Again, limited by piety, but let's just pretend you can actually power all those god abilities.

And Gozag stacks super well with basically everything that isn't fedhas. Gozag would probably be taken by this species by at least 75% of players who knew what they were doing (and who weren't abusing mushrooms, which I hate doing).

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