duvessa wrote:The average maces aptitude is about -0.7. -1 isn't very far below average, and giant clubs are still a no-brainer on ogres, anyway (which is why I suggested nerfing it to -2 or -3, not -1).
This is preposterous to me. Giant clubs and large rocks are special weapons which are stronger than usual but usable exclusively by large races. The ability to use those powerful offensive options represents most of the advantage that large species get, to counteract the many negatives associated with large size (like poor armor access and poor evasion). Of
course players of large races are disproportionately likely to take advantage of that. Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't you want them to? Why have giant clubs in the game at all otherwise? Why have large races at all otherwise? That's a big part of what makes Ogres feel different to play than other options! And Ogres feeling different to play is a good thing. Hell, why have weapon skills at
all? If you insist that a random sword, mace, and axe all be perfectly equally desirable for all characters at all times, then there's no point in having a bunch of different weapon skills. There's no point in having a bunch of different weapon
types.
And besides, if you try to balance giant clubs against axes by torpedoing the M&F skill, then any Great Mace you find just becomes the thing you discard as garbage. What's the difference between a human who junks every Giant Club, an old-ogre who junks every Executioner's Axe, and your proposed ogre who junks every Great Mace? What problem is being solved there which justifies flattening out the experience of playing an Ogre versus playing a Human?
CanOfWorms wrote:Floodkiller wrote:If it is impossible design wise to either raise Ogre M&F to 0 or reduce the higher weapon apts to -1 to match without ruining decision making for alternative weapons, then I recommend giving Trolls a higher M&F that matches or exceeds UC instead. People who want a species that is good at hitting things with a big stick can be happy, and people who want to create more decisions for a species can be happy that Trolls get more options than always UC. It's a win-win!
the real answer is to drop their UC to like -3 or something, they can handle the nerf
This is even more preposterous! Awesome unarmed damage is like 99% of the reason anyone picks a Troll. They have a really, really strong melee weapon at all stages of the game, without being at the mercy of random drops or an uneven power curve. No other species has this feel. They pay for it with fire weakness, bad defenses, and awful aptitudes in a lot of other things. What possible advantage could there be to go out of your way to try to systematically nullify the chief thing that makes Trolls feel interesting and appealing to play? If you gut the effectiveness of Troll UC until UC versus any other combat mode is a total wash, then how are you going to distinguish Trolls from other options? How are you going to make Trolls feel like anything other than Shit Minotaurs?
Like, okay, giant clubs and claws being good means that Ogres and Trolls are probably not thinking super hard about weapon drops. They are forgoing a decision-point that a Human Fighter would probably make in the same situation.
1) So what? A Deep Elf isn't going to think very hard about a dropped Executioner Axe. A Minotaur isn't going to think very hard about a dropped Necronomicon. A Naga
certainly isn't going to think very hard about whether or not they should spend gold on a pair of artifact boots in the shop. To my knowledge, none of these are considered problems! There are always plenty of other decisions to make. Depending on your species and background, some will be easier and some will be harder. That strikes me as normal and healthy. Different characters
should be expected to invest different amounts of attention on different aspects of their playstyle; that's what makes them feel different from one another.
2) If all special racial benefits are meticulously counterbalanced to the point that taking advantage of that unique benefit is a total wash compared to ignoring it and doing any other random thing...then that's not an interesting decision being made either! Because it's all going to turn out basically the same no matter what you choose; you might as well flip a coin. And now species selection feels really muddy and boring and samey.
I simply don't see the benefit of going crazy trying to make every option equally valid for every character at every time. Bringing Ogres' spellcasting attributes up is a good idea because it helps them feel further differentiated from other smashy species like Trolls and Minotaurs, who all previously tended to share the "sucks at magic" drawback. And M&F needs to be dropped from +3 to +1 to help ensure that investing experience into magic feels competitive with investing experience into melee, then fine, I get that. But "change M&F from +3 to -3 because we want to make sure nobody ever accidentally gets excited about getting to equip a GSC as an Ogre" is ridiculous. Comparing weapon stats is not the be-all end-all of what makes this game worth playing, such that that all other facets of design must be sacrificed at its altar.