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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
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Crypt Cleanser
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ONIchinchin wrote:Because spells are the strongest player option in this game. Conjuration spells are basically ranged weapons but have way larger potential average damage per aut and have infinite ammo because MP is infinite. Hunger is currently too lenient because of how much chunks and permafood drop in one game regardless of luck
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Abyss Ambulator
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Abyss Ambulator
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ONIchinchin wrote:Because spells are the strongest player option in this game.
Cocytus Succeeder
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tabstorm wrote:ONIchinchin wrote:Because spells are the strongest player option in this game.
actually that would be heavy armor melee.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Barkeep
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Ziggurat Zagger
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njvack wrote:Spell hunger isn't totally irrelevant for spriggans. I mean, I guess it is in that you're a spriggan so you don't need big conjurations early, but the thing that really lets you not think about spell hunger is using magic to turn monsters into chunks.
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Siegurt wrote:Presently the only purpose it actually serves is to let you know if you have been just flat out training incorrectly.
If you literally put 0 points into spell casting, but (inefficiently and not very effectively) dump enough xp into spell skills to succeed at casting a high level spell (not many times, obviously, because your mp will suck) you will get additional negative feedback in the form of spell hunger becoming a problem.
This isn't helpful or useful to anyone who knows how to play at all, or like has read all the help files or spent any time at all learning b about the game, but it does serve newbies as a hint that you are doing it wrong.
Of course the drawback to that is that then novices tend to overreact and try to get all spells to 0 hunger cost before using them.
As to what purpose it actual *should* serve, if any, i don't have any opinions.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Doesnt wrote:Siegurt wrote:Presently the only purpose it actually serves is to let you know if you have been just flat out training incorrectly.
If you literally put 0 points into spell casting, but (inefficiently and not very effectively) dump enough xp into spell skills to succeed at casting a high level spell (not many times, obviously, because your mp will suck) you will get additional negative feedback in the form of spell hunger becoming a problem.
This isn't helpful or useful to anyone who knows how to play at all, or like has read all the help files or spent any time at all learning b about the game, but it does serve newbies as a hint that you are doing it wrong.
Of course the drawback to that is that then novices tend to overreact and try to get all spells to 0 hunger cost before using them.
As to what purpose it actual *should* serve, if any, i don't have any opinions.
This is not actually true. You can get noticable hunger with castable spells even if you have equal investment in Spellcasting and the relevant schools. This is most visible for specialists (who may just be working with a book drought) or for people using a source of Wizardry, which does nothing to combat spell hunger.
A 22 int human with 17 Spellcasting and 17 Conjuration will suffer 326 hunger every time they cast Orb of Destruction (nearly a third of a chunk for a single-target spell that might not hit anything!) at 2% fail rate. If they want to cast more powerful and consistent OODs, they should invest more in Conjurations, but if they want to cast it less annoyingly they want to invest Spellcasting...
Unfortunately even going to 27 Spellcasting will only partly help this poor human; they need to find an Int-boosting item to get less than 106 spell hunger. There's not actually a choice to be made; they just invest Conjurations or waste their experience.
Abyss Ambulator
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bel wrote:tabstorm wrote:ONIchinchin wrote:Because spells are the strongest player option in this game.
actually that would be heavy armor melee.
Obviously spell hunger shouldn't exist. I think it's a carryover from nethack.
But since this is CYC, I don't feel guilty about derailing the thread a bit. I am interested in this question. How would one go about showing that one playstyle is the "strongest"? What's the domain where one is arguing? (Obviously DEFi is weaker than DEFE, I think, so it can't be the whole universe).
For the sake of argument, let's assume that the player reaches D:5 or something, so the random early game isn't weighted too much. Or we could start every character with a potion of curing and scroll of teleport, as I suggested in another thread.
One hypothetical experiment is to have a few seeded games with temple on D:5 (so you have the choice of different gods based on the playstyle - we could probably rule out Trog if people want), and then look at the winrate?
But is it possible to answer this question without running an experiment of this kind?
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:njvack wrote:Spell hunger isn't totally irrelevant for spriggans. I mean, I guess it is in that you're a spriggan so you don't need big conjurations early, but the thing that really lets you not think about spell hunger is using magic to turn monsters into chunks.
This is what I meant in last sentence of my post, I am not even going to try SpFE/Cj/IE/EE because it is extremely annoying to check spell hunger before casting spells.
It's like "I can easily kill that Hill Giant with 2 Fireballs but I'd better kite it for 30 turns with Throw Flame because hunger matters".
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Ziggurat Zagger
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tasonir wrote:I didn't have any trouble with spell hunger.
I ended the game (3 runes) with 16 rations and 16 royal jellies.
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tabstorm wrote:Because it's obvious from actually playing the game that it's the strongest option in the game for most races that aren't elves, tengu, octopodes, or felids unless you declare the game to not include anything past D:8 on the grounds that it is so utterly trivial as to not count as a game. Since the developers have not yet deleted Lair, its branches, D:9-15, Orc, Elf, Vaults, Depths, or Zot, we can assume that this is not actually the case, at least for most people.
!lg greatplayers recent
race=(hu|ce|dd|dg|ds|fo|gr|ha|he|ho|hu|ko|mf|mu|na|og|vp|vs)
s=class / won o=%
<Sequell> 2021/27173 games for greatplayers (recent
race=(hu|ce|dd|dg|ds|fo|gr|ha|he|ho|hu|ko|mf|mu|na|og|vp|vs)):
88/685x Artificer [12.85%], 209/2021x Gladiator [10.34%],
76/763x Assassin [9.96%], 61/621x Fire Elementalist [9.82%],
76/812x Skald [9.36%], 125/1343x Berserker [9.31%], 58/637x Ice
Elementalist [9.11%], 83/924x Hunter [8.98%], 67/748x Earth
Elementalist [8.96%], 47/527x Conjurer [8.92%],
<Sequell> 72/882x Necromancer [8.16%], 153/1906x Wanderer [8.03%],
56/736x Venom Mage [7.61%], 70/928x Enchanter [7.54%], 41/598x
Air Elementalist [6.86%], 55/807x Summoner [6.82%], 233/3436x
Fighter [6.78%], 50/830x Arcane Marksman [6.02%], 49/835x
Warper [5.87%], 123/2233x Monk [5.51%], 54/991x Transmuter
[5.45%], 56/1051x Wizard [5.33%], 68/1562x Chaos Knight
[4.35%], 51/1297x Abyssal Knight [3.93%]
Ziggurat Zagger
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:I was not writing about SpCj starvation. I was writing about SpCj playing in a very special (and annoying) way and your games and impression confirm that.
Cast: Magic Dart | 144 | 199 | 298 | 106 | 39 | | | | || 786
Searing Ray | 5 | | | | 1 | | | | || 6
Iskenderun's Myst | | | 103 | 534 | 1124 | 418 | 64 | 1 | 6 || 2250
Iskenderun's Batt | | | 4 | 7 | 18 | 5 | 5 | | || 39
Airstrike | | | | 1 | | 5 | | | || 6
Venom Bolt | | | | | 431 | 888 | 366 | | || 1685
Ziggurat Zagger
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Snake Sneak
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Ziggurat Zagger
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:I cannot find "Brilliance" in your SpCj game (I checked lst file also). You are right, maybe you used Mystic Blast more because Sp can kite easily so it does not need firepower and MP-efficiency of battlesphere that much.
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