Remove Regeneration


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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 05:23

Remove Regeneration

It's a badly designed spell that passively gives free HP for both a non-existent investment and drawback . Either nerf it to become a level 5/6 dualschool spell or/and add contamination after 1st cast that is only 1 cast away from getting 2 or 3 muts from yellow contamination (adjustments to the duration) so it becomes a spell that is not brainlessly spammed and actually punishes. If these still can't fix it since these doesn't really fix the core problem then please consider cutting this tumor ASAP.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:24

Re: Remove Regeneration

Rename to vampiric strike, give like 6 turns to kill an enemy with a weapon and if you do, you regain some HP.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:28

Re: Remove Regeneration

lethediver wrote:Rename to vampiric strike, give like 6 turns to kill an enemy with a weapon and if you do, you regain some HP.


While I like the idea I don't think I will like using the spell, it is already boring to fight popcorn, casting spells in those fights will make it even worse.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 06:55

Re: Remove Regeneration

And then please merge back Charms and Hexes to Enchantments.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 11:31

Re: Remove Regeneration

Making it harder to cast / more difficult to obtain wouldn't change the fact that it's bad design.

I like your proposal of adding a drawback to it. Contam sounds about right (with an increase to the spell's effectiveness to compensate, maybe in the level of Ambrosia).

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 11:58

Re: Remove Regeneration

The biggest problem with Regeneration is that you have to recast it. I think if you could make it a permanent buff at some reasonable cost (both xp- and design-wise), a lot of issue with Regeneration would be gone.

I would suggest Path of Exile-like mana reservation system for Charms, where you activate a buff and it takes from your max MP until you turn the buff off, but I'm sure it was suggested already at least once.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 12:03

Re: Remove Regeneration

Regeneration does have a big drawback. It is hated by good gods.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 12:07

Re: Remove Regeneration

Leszczynek wrote:The biggest problem with Regeneration is that you have to recast it.

Seriously? Are you too lazy to move your fingers from "o" and "tab"?

But I realy like your idea with mana reservation. It could solve all "problems" with buff spells.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 12:27

Re: Remove Regeneration

I'm not even that bitter of a vet, but mana reservation has been suggested several times and rejected because it fundamentally doesn't solve the problem. (To elaborate, if you're playing a melee dude that only uses charms, you're not losing anything notable by having less max MP, because you weren't going to use MP in the first place).

I'd argue that life reservation is a much better system. Risk reward.
Last edited by Steel Neuron on Monday, 23rd January 2017, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 13:00

Re: Remove Regeneration

StupidBerserker wrote:Seriously? Are you too lazy to move your fingers from "o" and "tab"?

Having to cast a spell 5 times just to go back to full HP doesn't seem like very exciting gameplay to me.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 13:21

Re: Remove Regeneration

Make Regeneration always heal you to full health and then end. However, if you take a certain amount of spellpower-dependent damage while it's active, the spell ends prematurely. It cannot be recast while active.

This gets rid of the tedium of casting it multiple times. It's still optimal to cast when out of combat to deal with wandering monsters, but at least you don't have to do it five times. In combat, it gives it two simple but interesting downsides: it will have to be recast a lot (since it's likely to break), and its MP efficiency is dependent on how much damage you've taken. So it becomes an interesting way to turn around a fight that's going badly, but it's no longer optimal to cast it before fights when at full HP (since it will literally do nothing).

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 14:31

Re: Remove Regeneration

It's certainly not the tedium of recasting Regeneration a couple hundred of times in a single game that's being a problem; that's only a minor and tolerable tedium necessary to make the spell work in a similar vein to regular optimal spells that needs a ton of repetitive keystrokes in a single game (Iron Shot, Firestorm, Magic Dart etc.)

Its core design to conveniently maintain the most important stat of the game in Crawl is what's making Regeneration problematic. It's exactly like having a better !HW which is supposed to be limited that it doesn't even matter if you're using it inside or outside combat. Both the non-existent investments and drawback are mere icing on the cake that can be somehow tolerated or reworked to some degree while leaving the main problem unsolved. It is a malignant tumor with no cure.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 14:37

Re: Remove Regeneration

Iron Shot and fire Storm are much better, it is not optimal to cast them before opening every door or turning around every corner.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 15:36

Re: Remove Regeneration

I agree that the Regen spell as currently designed is problematic. If it has a good remedy, I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate somewhat based on current spellpower for the regen spell; it might also make sense to have the effect be a redirection of mp regen to health regen, but I wouldn't want to get into a situation where you want to toggle it on and off a lot.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 16:18

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:I agree that the Regen spell as currently designed is problematic. If it has a good remedy, I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate somewhat based on current spellpower for the regen spell; it might also make sense to have the effect be a redirection of mp regen to health regen, but I wouldn't want to get into a situation where you want to toggle it on and off a lot.

I dislike perma-buff as a solution. I do like the suggestion above (it ends when you reach full life, or take a spellpower- dependant sized hit)

I think mana regeneration as life regen would be awful.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 17:00

Re: Remove Regeneration

I dislike those solutions because they don't address the use case of casting regen 3-5 times after many fights, which is often optimal.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 21:37

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:I dislike those solutions because they don't address the use case of casting regen 3-5 times after many fights, which is often optimal.

"Regen lasts until you are fully healed" does solve that problem.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 21:59

Re: Remove Regeneration

... and if regen always heals you to MaxHP (unless injured while the buff is up) then spell power could affect regeneration rate which really does seem like a thing spell power should do.

A slightly different mechanic might be: When you cast Regeneration, it'll restore enough HP to bring you to maxhp. Duration depends on spellpower -- high power leads to shorter duration. You can't terminate the spell or recast while active.

This means that if you cast the spell after losing 3HP in a battle, you might spend a long time regenerating those HP. If you cast it when at 10% HP, you'll get a lot more benefit from the spell — but you needed to spend a turn casting regeneration when you were at 10% HP and maybe you'd rather be doing something else with that turn.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 22:12

Re: Remove Regeneration

But you still end up casting it after every battle.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 22:54

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:it might also make sense to have the effect be a redirection of mp regen to health regen, but I wouldn't want to get into a situation where you want to toggle it on and off a lot.


Making it so you have to recast the spell during battle is a pretty elegant way to do this IMO. The player is effectively diverting their MP into HP, but they know exactly how much MP they're spending, and the "toggle" uses a very well-established mechanic (spellcasting) so there isn't much interface cost.

Lasty wrote:But you still end up casting it after every battle.


Unless you forbid it from being cast outside of battle, or give it a strategic cost, I think this will always be true. The former can always be gamed, while the latter creates some nasty decision fatigue.

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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 23:53

Re: Remove Regeneration

Regeneration is arguably the most OP spell in current Crawl (after removal of Haste).

The cause of death after early part of game is that the small damages stacks up before recovering health fully.
Regeneration reduces that chance significantly with almost no cost.
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Post Monday, 23rd January 2017, 23:56

Re: Remove Regeneration

My idea:

1. Raise its spell level 3 -> 7 Charm/Necr
2. Make its duration 20 or 30 times longer
3. Make its regeneration rate supply depends on spellpower (So that it get current regen rate at spellpower 100)
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 00:08

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:But you still end up casting it after every battle.

If you are casting it in combat, and it didn't run out, then you don't have to recast it after battle.

Even if you are not using it in combat for reasons, casting it once after battle is still less annoying than 3-5 times isn't it? I mean i also check out corpses for loot, pick up ammo and rest after combat, casting this spell once doesn't seem terribly onerous to me, particularly if you don't need to cast it once if you have been using it in combat.
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 00:51

Re: Remove Regeneration

Just allow to cast it only under 30% HP.
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 02:23

Re: Remove Regeneration

Just remove all charms and be done with it already! God.
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 03:54

Re: Remove Regeneration

Or, since it is a necromancy spell, make it work like demonspawn powered by death and require dead enemies.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 04:02

Re: Remove Regeneration

Think about it this way: under what circumstances is it an interesting choice to cast regeneration?

My answer is virtually never. It's almost always trivially scriptable when to cast it. These proposals don't change that. Given that, I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 05:41

Re: Remove Regeneration

tabstorm wrote:Just remove all charms and be done with it already! God.


Specifically Regeneration has one more reason to be removed - it duplicates a common item. Why don't we have spells "Identify item", "Teleport Self", "+8 EV"?
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 06:44

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.


How do you keep spell power and spell success relevant?

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 08:43

Re: Remove Regeneration

Just slap on a 5% chance of rotting one hp to match the flavor and make "optimal play" a terrible idea. It's not a drawback in casual/efficient play where you use regen 50-100 times per 3 rune game but is an efficient way to keep the insane optimal scenario's where you punch regen a few thousand times over a 3 runer from happening.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 15:42

Re: Remove Regeneration

Rast wrote:
Lasty wrote:I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.


How do you keep spell power and spell success relevant?

As I proposed before: have the per-AUT effect be moderated by the current spell power/success rate. The first version that comes to mind is that the regen rate is based on spellpower, and the chance of getting any regen boost is based on spell success rate.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 16:17

Re: Remove Regeneration

How about we stop making the game harder by nerfing player options and instead focus on better monsters?

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 16:44

Re: Remove Regeneration

Speleothing wrote:nerfing player options


But it's not an option. You're gimping yourself if you don't try casting Regen as soon as you find one because of how good, cheap and terribly optimal it is.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 17:17

Re: Remove Regeneration

Yeah, which is why we shouldn't take it away. The game is hard enough as it is.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 17:29

Re: Remove Regeneration

I'm not saying there's not a problem with Regeneration, but frankly it's not obvious to me what it is. It would help me at least to break it down, at the cost of repeating things other people have said.

So: essentially, Regeneration does two things for you.

  1. It gives you extra HP during a fight, in proportion to the fight's duration.
  2. It lets you recover HP faster after a fight, thereby reducing a number of costs and dangers: your piety decay and (depending on your casting ability) food consumption between encounters, the odds that a monster will approach before you're fully recovered, and your exposure to Hell effects. Of these, only the marginally reduced piety decay is more than situationally useful.
In principle, both of these strike me as perfectly reasonable things for a spell to do. So what's the problem? I can think of a few possibilities:

  • "Regeneration gives too much HP for too little investment." This was something the OP said, but if this problem exists (which I'm not sure it does) it could be completely resolved by tweaking the scaling or increasing the level, as others have pointed out.
  • "Regeneration's in-combat benefit incentivizes luring and/or kiting, which are Bad." I could see a case for this, since the longer you stretch out a fight, the more Regeneration benefits you. However, there are simple and promising solutions for this, too, as has also been pointed out; I especially like making Regeneration work like Powered by Death.
  • "Regeneration's out-of-combat benefit encourages tedious recasting." If this is the only problem, there is really no reason not to make Regeneration last indefinitely, or until you're fully healed. Nor do I see any reason why a longer-lasting Regeneration should have a drawback: like everything else you can find in Crawl, spells are ways for the player to increase their power in exchange for an XP investment. If the power increase from a longer-lasting Regeneration is too good for its current XP investment, again, tweak the ratio by raising the level or reducing the effect.
  • "Always-on, no-drawback buff spells increase player power in a way that is inherently problematic, no matter the XP investment required to access them." Sometimes I suspect that when people criticize spells like Regeneration, they're really motivated by this objection or some similarly general objection along similar lines. While I don't get this objection--why is the power increase from a passive spell inherently more problematic than the power increase from an active one?--that's beside the point: whatever the merits of this objection, it should be discussed on its own, as the general objection it is.
None of these is a reason to remove Regeneration per se. Is there a reason I missed?

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 18:40

Re: Remove Regeneration

Possible solutions:

1. Allow to cast it only under 50% of HP, boost its power and make it 4 level.
2. Regen could temporary drain 1 point from Dex/ Str or Int. So nobody will want to recast it several times.
3. Regen can also be a permabuff but weak as an amulet of regen or a troll leather armour. As a drawback the spell increases the contamination by 1 or 2 points during the action (so at max HP it does nothing).
4. Just remove it. I suppose you like doing that.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 19:15

Re: Remove Regeneration

luckless wrote:Is there a reason I missed?


Regen conveniently gives you free HP which only !HW and !curing should do in addition to being unlimited. There isn't a single moment when you shouldn't cast it even when you're at full HP. Shroud of Golubria and Deflect Missiles essentially gives you free HP too but definitely not directly and you need enemies to benefit from both. Shroud is used and wears off against melee while Deflect Missiles is used and wears off against ranged attacks. Most of the time it's not viable to recast them again whenever they wear off during an encounter so they mostly just work as spells to gain initial advantage, a surely tolerable usage.

While in Regeneration's case, you just cast it anywhere and anytime you like it and you will already reap its ridiculous benefits whether you need it or not. It's unlimited anyway don't be stingy and it recovers your HP, the most important stat in Crawl in exchange for... wow it's nothing! What could ever go wrong? Don't even think about luring or other irrelevant player behaviors; its core design to be always desirable no matter what the circumstance is bad in itself without even taking player behavior into account. This spell is just a worse !HW and most probably even worse than /HW which was removed already. At least /HW asks for a turn and a single limited charge to recover mediocre HP while Regeneration doesn't even do that except for the turn you cast it since it's a passive ability, doesn't wear off until it expires naturally and unlimited to boot. Player options that directly recovers your HP, while necessary to have some, shouldn't be conveniently available since it contributes a lot to trivializing the game's difficulty. If there's even another player feature that does, at least get creative like Borg (it needs a nerf btw since the max hp trim is too low) and !ambrosia (which is fairly rare). At this point, I could even go as far as to prefer bringing back /HW as long as this horrible spell gets removed because /HW is certainly way better in terms of being non-degenerate.

None of these suggestions could fix Regen as it is.

If you make it a permabuff, then it's just a no-brainer.
If you just make it a duplicate of Powered by Death, it's fixed to the garbage can.
If you just fix its irrelevant tedium of recasting then it's just a Quality of Life change. This pizza tastes bad because it actually has toothpaste on it but I certainly didn't ask anyone to decorate flowers around it so it can look pretty to the eyes.
If you just make it spellpower dependent, the malignant tumor would just be quarantined to high Int spellcasters while blatantly ignoring the problem in the first place.

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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 19:59

Re: Remove Regeneration

What if regeneration spell caused glow like invisibility, so multiple castings isn't practical? Would that be too big a nerf?
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 20:14

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:Given that, I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.

If "always-on buffs" are going to be a thing that spells do, this sounds fine to me. My feeling after reading the endless Charms threads is that that's not what we're looking for. Having exactly one spell that works this way would be intensely weird. But hey, we have delayed fireball.

I also kind of agree with the whole "we have an item ego that does exactly this, and a god ability and a few consumables that do something very similar, so maybe we don't need a charm as well" argument.
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Post Tuesday, 24th January 2017, 22:08

Re: Remove Regeneration

ONIchinchin wrote:Player options that directly recovers your HP, while necessary to have some, shouldn't be conveniently available since it contributes a lot to trivializing the game's difficulty.

What, you mean like resting?

No, seriously, if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do. For me, Heal Wounds is for emergencies: getting back to a safe HP total after a damage spike, surviving heavy damage long enough for a teleport to kick in, or immediately getting a large enough HP buffer to risk escaping. Regeneration doesn't do any of that because it heals gradually.

Again, what Regeneration does is (a) make rests go faster and (b) increase your effective max HP in fights, by an amount proportional to that fight's duration. Occasionally it may enable you to win very long fights that would otherwise wear you down, but in my experience of these cases it is usually both possible and preferable to escape and rest. Sure, Regeneration provides this additional effective HP with no downside. But you know what else increases your effective HP with no downside? AC and EV. Are those also cancerous growths that must be eliminated to preserve the integrity of Crawl?

Maybe the problem is this:

ONIchinchin wrote:It's unlimited anyway don't be stingy and it recovers your HP, the most important stat in Crawl in exchange for... wow it's nothing!

No, it's not nothing, any more than Fighting gives you HP for nothing. Like Fighting, Regeneration gives you more HP for the XP required to train your skills. The only differences are as follows: (a) Regeneration requires you to actively input commands to benefit from it, (b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP, and (c) Regeneration and Fighting each provide different benefits in addition to the HP. I've allowed that (a) and (b) are problems, but you still have not given me any reason to think that it is better to cut the spell entirely than to fix them.

Finally, perhaps you think I'm missing the implications of this:

ONIchinchin wrote:If you make it a permabuff, then it's just a no-brainer.

So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer. If I have a decent exec axe and the skill to use it, using it over a battleaxe is a no-brainer. In general, taking advantage of options you've invested XP to get is a no-brainer. There is nothing wrong with this--provided the option is not itself so good, and so cheap, that investing the XP in the first place is a no-brainer too. Everyone has allowed, if only for sake of argument, that with Regeneration, this may perhaps be the case. But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive?

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 01:24

Re: Remove Regeneration

You guys clearly do not understand that regen is balanced by another despised but necessary mechanic: Food. If you recast it all the time, you will quickly run out of food from the extra 10/turn it consumes (or whatever the value is). You may actually consume MORE food between fights, because of the drain. While killing chunky enemies makes regen a good choice to cast still, in extended it becomes a bad idea to cast all the time.

Also, anyone who is complaining about regen needing to be applied all the time can just macro it to 'p'.
I'm with tasonir on this one.

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 03:11

Re: Remove Regeneration

luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?


Sure. Except this "resting" you're referring to dramatically increases your regeneration rate, works while moving and no matter what you're doing. At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful and you actually have to find loot and scrolls for AC. Both of them also requires enemy attacks to work in the same vein to both Shroud and Deflect Missiles as only mere damage reductions; they don't directly give HP. Regeneration, a spell found in two starting spellbooks, works even if you have low Int 10s or 12s that the only penalty you'd get is casting it a few more times than normal and a non-existent food "penalty".

luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do


What part of getting more HP for free did you not understand? If you leave it turned on enough you objectively reduce a ton of times where you're forced to use !HW/!curing or any other escape consumable/spells. If you leave Regen turned on enough, you'd always regain waaaaay more total HP from it than the recovery you'd get from the total number of !HW (and /HW charges for the sake of emphasizing how ridiculous this is) you can find in your game even if you do 15 runes or Ziggurats.

luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP


Was there even a time that it isn't? Let's be honest here, there's ZERO. You'd just or always try to get it no matter what your build is unless you're a 4 Int XL 27 Minotaur.

luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer


I've already stated why it isn't in my previous post. It's not THAT good unless you have high spellpower that recasting it during fights with ranged threats would be worth it. And before you go further, Regeneration can't really compared to any of the Charm spells right now. Infusion needs MP and MP is important especially lategame, SoS has noise and noise is always important, Shroud and Deflect Missile (refer to my previous post), Ring of Flames requires too much investment and a dump school while still not that useful for melee while DD's side effects of staying in a 1 hit hp bar for several turns makes it not so desirable. Spectral Weapon might be the only other black sheep besides Regeneration but that requires another thread.

luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive


I've already told you this in the previous post that it's just containing the problem to high int, magic skill and manapool casters especially with Lasty's suggestion to make it spellpower dependent regardless of how that will work. It doesn't really solve anything in the first place of still being so desirable as always even if it becomes a level 6 or 7 spell. It isn't in the same tier to Shroud of Golubria where you'll say, "I think I don't need this, I won't let too much monsters in my melee range anyway" or Song of Slaying's "I think I'll only use this if I can handle wandering monsters in addition to these targets". Do you even consider if you'd learn or cast Regeneration or not? Like "I think I don't need this, I'd never let my HP go down anyway" when does this even happen? Practically never especially in the relevant parts of the game (which is nearly everywhere) right? This is exactly like trying to nerf Haste to a level 8 or 9 spell and increasing its contamination to justify its horrible design so it can stay; it just doesn't work.

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 03:20

Re: Remove Regeneration

ONIchinchin wrote:At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful
yeah this other day i found a sweet pair of gloves but i couldnt decide whether it was worth trianing gloves skill high enough to wear it

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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 03:37

Re: Remove Regeneration

ONIchinchin wrote:
luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?


Sure. Except this "resting" you're referring to dramatically increases your regeneration rate, works while moving and no matter what you're doing. At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful and you actually have to find loot and scrolls for AC. Both of them also requires enemy attacks to work in the same vein to both Shroud and Deflect Missiles as only mere damage reductions; they don't directly give HP. Regeneration, a spell found in two starting spellbooks, works even if you have low Int 10s or 12s that the only penalty you'd get is casting it a few more times than normal and a non-existent food "penalty".

luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do


What part of getting more HP for free did you not understand? If you leave it turned on enough you objectively reduce a ton of times where you're forced to use !HW/!curing or any other escape consumable/spells. If you leave Regen turned on enough, you'd always regain waaaaay more total HP from it than the recovery you'd get from the total number of !HW (and /HW charges for the sake of emphasizing how ridiculous this is) you can find in your game even if you do 15 runes or Ziggurats.

luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP


Was there even a time that it isn't? Let's be honest here, there's ZERO. You'd just or always try to get it no matter what your build is unless you're a 4 Int XL 27 Minotaur.

luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer


I've already stated why it isn't in my previous post. It's not THAT good unless you have high spellpower that recasting it during fights with ranged threats would be worth it. And before you go further, Regeneration can't really compared to any of the Charm spells right now. Infusion needs MP and MP is important especially lategame, SoS has noise and noise is always important, Shroud and Deflect Missile (refer to my previous post), Ring of Flames requires too much investment and a dump school while still not that useful for melee while DD's side effects of staying in a 1 hit hp bar for several turns makes it not so desirable. Spectral Weapon might be the only other black sheep besides Regeneration but that requires another thread.

luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive


I've already told you this in the previous post that it's just containing the problem to high int, magic skill and manapool casters especially with Lasty's suggestion to make it spellpower dependent regardless of how that will work. It doesn't really solve anything in the first place of still being so desirable as always even if it becomes a level 6 or 7 spell. It isn't in the same tier to Shroud of Golubria where you'll say, "I think I don't need this, I won't let too much monsters in my melee range anyway" or Song of Slaying's "I think I'll only use this if I can handle wandering monsters in addition to these targets". Do you even consider if you'd learn or cast Regeneration or not? Like "I think I don't need this, I'd never let my HP go down anyway" when does this even happen? Practically never especially in the relevant parts of the game (which is nearly everywhere) right? This is exactly like trying to nerf Haste to a level 8 or 9 spell and increasing its contamination to justify its horrible design so it can stay; it just doesn't work.


Using '5' requires a 0 xp skill investment, and will over the course of a game heal way more than the total of all consumables. It is clearly the biggest no brainer of them all.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 03:37

Re: Remove Regeneration

ONIchinchin wrote:
luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?


Sure. Except this "resting" you're referring to dramatically increases your regeneration rate, works while moving and no matter what you're doing. At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful and you actually have to find loot and scrolls for AC. Both of them also requires enemy attacks to work in the same vein to both Shroud and Deflect Missiles as only mere damage reductions; they don't directly give HP. Regeneration, a spell found in two starting spellbooks, works even if you have low Int 10s or 12s that the only penalty you'd get is casting it a few more times than normal and a non-existent food "penalty".

luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do


What part of getting more HP for free did you not understand? If you leave it turned on enough you objectively reduce a ton of times where you're forced to use !HW/!curing or any other escape consumable/spells. If you leave Regen turned on enough, you'd always regain waaaaay more total HP from it than the recovery you'd get from the total number of !HW (and /HW charges for the sake of emphasizing how ridiculous this is) you can find in your game even if you do 15 runes or Ziggurats.

luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP


Was there even a time that it isn't? Let's be honest here, there's ZERO. You'd just or always try to get it no matter what your build is unless you're a 4 Int XL 27 Minotaur.

luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer


I've already stated why it isn't in my previous post. It's not THAT good unless you have high spellpower that recasting it during fights with ranged threats would be worth it. And before you go further, Regeneration can't really compared to any of the Charm spells right now. Infusion needs MP and MP is important especially lategame, SoS has noise and noise is always important, Shroud and Deflect Missile (refer to my previous post), Ring of Flames requires too much investment and a dump school while still not that useful for melee while DD's side effects of staying in a 1 hit hp bar for several turns makes it not so desirable. Spectral Weapon might be the only other black sheep besides Regeneration but that requires another thread.

luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive


I've already told you this in the previous post that it's just containing the problem to high int, magic skill and manapool casters especially with Lasty's suggestion to make it spellpower dependent regardless of how that will work. It doesn't really solve anything in the first place of still being so desirable as always even if it becomes a level 6 or 7 spell. It isn't in the same tier to Shroud of Golubria where you'll say, "I think I don't need this, I won't let too much monsters in my melee range anyway" or Song of Slaying's "I think I'll only use this if I can handle wandering monsters in addition to these targets". Do you even consider if you'd learn or cast Regeneration or not? Like "I think I don't need this, I'd never let my HP go down anyway" when does this even happen? Practically never especially in the relevant parts of the game (which is nearly everywhere) right? This is exactly like trying to nerf Haste to a level 8 or 9 spell and increasing its contamination to justify its horrible design so it can stay; it just doesn't work.


Resting requires 0 skill investment, and will over the course of a game heal way more than the total of all consumables, it even works in combat, and doesn't require any turns or mp at all.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 03:55

Re: Remove Regeneration

Regen's problems have almost nothing to do with power level and everything to do with mechanics. It's not even a top 5 spell.
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 16:37

Re: Remove Regeneration

How much max hp percentage would you trade for perma-regen? The answer probably varies over the course of the game, it's hard to say. I think it's an interesting enough choice but I'm not attached to regeneration existing. I'll miss the flavor of it being necromancy if it goes though. Maybe good gods could start disliking heal wounds potions as a substitute. :twisted:
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Post Wednesday, 25th January 2017, 19:58

Re: Remove Regeneration

Lasty wrote:I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate

We have multiple equipment slots regen fits into. You want to make it fit in your spell slots too?

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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 06:56

Re: Remove Regeneration

Siegurt wrote:Using '5' requires a 0 xp skill investment, and will over the course of a game heal way more than the total of all consumables. It is clearly the biggest no brainer of them all.


You can always retreat and rest to full HP, right? Remove regeneration then, it's a trap for new players which prevents them from learning how to master crawl. (sarcasm)

I use regeneration as heal wounds, it does not take very high playing skill to realize you are going to face dangerous monsters and will need help. I don't bother with regeretaion vs popcorn (and this is arguably a problem too, the spell is not very pleasant to use, make a toggle to automatically cast it when an enemy comes into view and you are at full MP).
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Post Thursday, 26th January 2017, 07:00

Re: Remove Regeneration

I don't see another idea mentioned - Regeneration decreases offensive abilities so you can use it for escaping but don't cast in every fight. Something like -20% to damage player deals. It can be more useful to casters this way who almost ran out of MP.
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