Halls Hopper
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Remove Regeneration
- For this message the author ONIchinchin has received thanks: 9
- bel, duvessa, luckless, nago, papilio, Steel Neuron, StupidBerserker, typhen, VeryAngryFelid
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Halls Hopper
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lethediver wrote:Rename to vampiric strike, give like 6 turns to kill an enemy with a weapon and if you do, you regain some HP.
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Mines Malingerer
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Leszczynek wrote:The biggest problem with Regeneration is that you have to recast it.
Slime Squisher
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Slime Squisher
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StupidBerserker wrote:Seriously? Are you too lazy to move your fingers from "o" and "tab"?
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Halls Hopper
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Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lasty wrote:I agree that the Regen spell as currently designed is problematic. If it has a good remedy, I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate somewhat based on current spellpower for the regen spell; it might also make sense to have the effect be a redirection of mp regen to health regen, but I wouldn't want to get into a situation where you want to toggle it on and off a lot.
Dungeon Master
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lasty wrote:I dislike those solutions because they don't address the use case of casting regen 3-5 times after many fights, which is often optimal.
Barkeep
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Slime Squisher
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Lasty wrote:it might also make sense to have the effect be a redirection of mp regen to health regen, but I wouldn't want to get into a situation where you want to toggle it on and off a lot.
Lasty wrote:But you still end up casting it after every battle.
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Slime Squisher
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lasty wrote:But you still end up casting it after every battle.
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tabstorm wrote:Just remove all charms and be done with it already! God.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Lasty wrote:I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.
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Dungeon Master
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Rast wrote:Lasty wrote:I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.
How do you keep spell power and spell success relevant?
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Halls Hopper
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Speleothing wrote:nerfing player options
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luckless wrote:Is there a reason I missed?
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Barkeep
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Lasty wrote:Given that, I feel that the correct solution is one that is always-on and simulates whichever scriptable behavior is the most interesting as a passive effect.
Spider Stomper
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ONIchinchin wrote:Player options that directly recovers your HP, while necessary to have some, shouldn't be conveniently available since it contributes a lot to trivializing the game's difficulty.
ONIchinchin wrote:It's unlimited anyway don't be stingy and it recovers your HP, the most important stat in Crawl in exchange for... wow it's nothing!
ONIchinchin wrote:If you make it a permabuff, then it's just a no-brainer.
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Halls Hopper
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luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?
luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do
luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP
luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer
luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive
ONIchinchin wrote:At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful
Ziggurat Zagger
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ONIchinchin wrote:luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?
Sure. Except this "resting" you're referring to dramatically increases your regeneration rate, works while moving and no matter what you're doing. At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful and you actually have to find loot and scrolls for AC. Both of them also requires enemy attacks to work in the same vein to both Shroud and Deflect Missiles as only mere damage reductions; they don't directly give HP. Regeneration, a spell found in two starting spellbooks, works even if you have low Int 10s or 12s that the only penalty you'd get is casting it a few more times than normal and a non-existent food "penalty".luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do
What part of getting more HP for free did you not understand? If you leave it turned on enough you objectively reduce a ton of times where you're forced to use !HW/!curing or any other escape consumable/spells. If you leave Regen turned on enough, you'd always regain waaaaay more total HP from it than the recovery you'd get from the total number of !HW (and /HW charges for the sake of emphasizing how ridiculous this is) you can find in your game even if you do 15 runes or Ziggurats.luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP
Was there even a time that it isn't? Let's be honest here, there's ZERO. You'd just or always try to get it no matter what your build is unless you're a 4 Int XL 27 Minotaur.luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer
I've already stated why it isn't in my previous post. It's not THAT good unless you have high spellpower that recasting it during fights with ranged threats would be worth it. And before you go further, Regeneration can't really compared to any of the Charm spells right now. Infusion needs MP and MP is important especially lategame, SoS has noise and noise is always important, Shroud and Deflect Missile (refer to my previous post), Ring of Flames requires too much investment and a dump school while still not that useful for melee while DD's side effects of staying in a 1 hit hp bar for several turns makes it not so desirable. Spectral Weapon might be the only other black sheep besides Regeneration but that requires another thread.luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive
I've already told you this in the previous post that it's just containing the problem to high int, magic skill and manapool casters especially with Lasty's suggestion to make it spellpower dependent regardless of how that will work. It doesn't really solve anything in the first place of still being so desirable as always even if it becomes a level 6 or 7 spell. It isn't in the same tier to Shroud of Golubria where you'll say, "I think I don't need this, I won't let too much monsters in my melee range anyway" or Song of Slaying's "I think I'll only use this if I can handle wandering monsters in addition to these targets". Do you even consider if you'd learn or cast Regeneration or not? Like "I think I don't need this, I'd never let my HP go down anyway" when does this even happen? Practically never especially in the relevant parts of the game (which is nearly everywhere) right? This is exactly like trying to nerf Haste to a level 8 or 9 spell and increasing its contamination to justify its horrible design so it can stay; it just doesn't work.
Ziggurat Zagger
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ONIchinchin wrote:luckless wrote:What, you mean like resting?
Sure. Except this "resting" you're referring to dramatically increases your regeneration rate, works while moving and no matter what you're doing. At least AC and EV needs humongous investment to be useful and you actually have to find loot and scrolls for AC. Both of them also requires enemy attacks to work in the same vein to both Shroud and Deflect Missiles as only mere damage reductions; they don't directly give HP. Regeneration, a spell found in two starting spellbooks, works even if you have low Int 10s or 12s that the only penalty you'd get is casting it a few more times than normal and a non-existent food "penalty".luckless wrote:if Regeneration is functionally similar to Heal Wounds you play very differently than I do
What part of getting more HP for free did you not understand? If you leave it turned on enough you objectively reduce a ton of times where you're forced to use !HW/!curing or any other escape consumable/spells. If you leave Regen turned on enough, you'd always regain waaaaay more total HP from it than the recovery you'd get from the total number of !HW (and /HW charges for the sake of emphasizing how ridiculous this is) you can find in your game even if you do 15 runes or Ziggurats.luckless wrote:(b) Regeneration usually gives you a better rate of return on your XP
Was there even a time that it isn't? Let's be honest here, there's ZERO. You'd just or always try to get it no matter what your build is unless you're a 4 Int XL 27 Minotaur.luckless wrote:So? If I have the skill to cast Deflect Missiles, it's a no-brainer
I've already stated why it isn't in my previous post. It's not THAT good unless you have high spellpower that recasting it during fights with ranged threats would be worth it. And before you go further, Regeneration can't really compared to any of the Charm spells right now. Infusion needs MP and MP is important especially lategame, SoS has noise and noise is always important, Shroud and Deflect Missile (refer to my previous post), Ring of Flames requires too much investment and a dump school while still not that useful for melee while DD's side effects of staying in a 1 hit hp bar for several turns makes it not so desirable. Spectral Weapon might be the only other black sheep besides Regeneration but that requires another thread.luckless wrote:But if so, why is it not preferable to make the option less good or more expensive
I've already told you this in the previous post that it's just containing the problem to high int, magic skill and manapool casters especially with Lasty's suggestion to make it spellpower dependent regardless of how that will work. It doesn't really solve anything in the first place of still being so desirable as always even if it becomes a level 6 or 7 spell. It isn't in the same tier to Shroud of Golubria where you'll say, "I think I don't need this, I won't let too much monsters in my melee range anyway" or Song of Slaying's "I think I'll only use this if I can handle wandering monsters in addition to these targets". Do you even consider if you'd learn or cast Regeneration or not? Like "I think I don't need this, I'd never let my HP go down anyway" when does this even happen? Practically never especially in the relevant parts of the game (which is nearly everywhere) right? This is exactly like trying to nerf Haste to a level 8 or 9 spell and increasing its contamination to justify its horrible design so it can stay; it just doesn't work.
Crypt Cleanser
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Lasty wrote:I think its most likely as a permabuff spell that increases regen rate
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Siegurt wrote:Using '5' requires a 0 xp skill investment, and will over the course of a game heal way more than the total of all consumables. It is clearly the biggest no brainer of them all.
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