Back Formicids enable to wield GC/GSC and throw rocks

[papilio]

ow GSCs have no reason to exist.
large rocks are okay anyway

[Shtopit]

This is something I'd really like. I don't care much about large rocks, but formicids should be given a reason not to use shields, and big clubs are the best (and it's not like they're gonna become OP anyway).

[Midn8]

GSCs used to be usable on formicids, but it was so terrible it was considered a noob trap and removed. The shield just offers so much tankiness that it isn't worth it to go GSC.

[VeryAngryFelid]

GSCs used to be usable on formicids, but it was so terrible it was considered a noob trap and removed. The shield just offers so much tankiness that it isn't worth it to go GSC.

Why is the opposite true for Ogre?

[Sar]

Actually IIRC they were pretty good at some point. At least with Trog/Oka.

[PleasingFungus]

Remove Formicid giant club wielding, reduce shield penalties, apt tweaks

Giant spiked clubs were stronger than other weapons to such a degree
that they commonly eclipsed the more unique formicid mechanic of using
a two-hander with a shield. There is already a race whose weapon choice
centers around giant clubs, so I think it better for formicids to lose
this ability so as to hilight the more interesting one.

In the same vein, formicids now recieve the same reduced shield
penalties that large races do (a perk of effectively having more limbs
to juggle everything with), which should make shield usage further
encouraged earlier on, where they have yet to gain enough xp to
otherwise benefit from using them with a two-hander (and the race is
considered weak enough that a few buffs like this feel perfectly safe).

[Sar]

Different times, back then the shield meme was "worthless", current shield meme is "great".

[tabstorm]

GSCs used to be usable on formicids, but it was so terrible it was considered a noob trap and removed. The shield just offers so much tankiness that it isn't worth it to go GSC.

this is not true, formicids wielding GSCs was seen as infringing upon ogres' Design Space.

[PleasingFungus]

still true, btw

[pubby]

A big reason I quit crawldev was that my 60+ hours of playtesting/spectating was being disregarded in favor of William Henry Harrisons with commit access who openly admitted to have never played a Fo game in their life.

Also, I find it Theodore Roosevelt that this 'design space' meme still exists considering "Whisper farewell when you leave, Gimli" was the most unpopular, most Ronald Reagan change to DCSS in history. People (read:John Quincy Adams) really love drinking their "Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away" Kool-Aid though. They must not realize that that quote is better at selling William Howard Taft books than it is as designing video games.

note to archaeo: if this riles your spaceman undies then replace all untavernly words with names of US presidents

edit: archaeo wants holiday cheer so I'll do it for him

[severen]

They used to be able to throw large rocks, that was removed for some reason. Also why the hell do Fo has a +1 sling apt. They are, bar none, the silliest species to use a sling on since you can use a triple crossbow/longbow and shield at same time.

I mean I suppose it can be argued that since slings are so much worse for them compared to other species you can tilt things back by giving them a +1 apt but really you might as well train throwing and just use the sling cross train.

[Shard1697]

I mean I suppose it can be argued that since slings are so much worse for them compared to other species

Fo is not a weak species though

[VeryAngryFelid]

Also I am not sure about slings being that bad. I just tested some weapons for gloves of archery and was surprised to see that slings with 14 levels deal the same damage as longbows with 20.
All vs stone giant.

+9 fustibalus of velocity
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 14,3 | 39 | 87% | 12,5 | 70 | 1,43 | 17,9

With gloves of archery
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 16,7 | 46 | 87% | 14,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 21,0

+9 longbow of velocity
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 13,7 | 52 | 92% | 12,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 18,1

With archery
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 15,9 | 55 | 92% | 14,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 21,1

[ZipZipskins]

Man calling someone a William Henry Harrison, that's rough

Not as brutal as like, a Warren G. Harding, so at least there's that

[VeryAngryFelid]

+9 arbalest of velocity
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 16,2 | 57 | 92% | 15,0 | 100 | 1,00 | 15,0

AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 18,5 | 68 | 92% | 17,1 | 100 | 1,00 | 17,1

[Sar]

Fo is not a weak species though

yeah they're the "terrible" ones

[severen]

I mean I suppose it can be argued that since slings are so much worse for them compared to other species

Fo is not a weak species though

I am not saying they are, I guess I was unclear. I like formicids just fine. I am just saying one of the drawbacks of bows/crossbows is no shield for the better weapons and one of the benefits of slings is you can use shields. So the sling APT on Fo is odd.

[severen]

Also I am not sure about slings being that bad. I just tested some weapons for gloves of archery and was surprised to see that slings with 14 levels deal the same damage as longbows with 20.
All vs stone giant.

+9 fustibalus of velocity
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 14,3 | 39 | 87% | 12,5 | 70 | 1,43 | 17,9

With gloves of archery
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 16,7 | 46 | 87% | 14,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 21,0

+9 longbow of velocity
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 13,7 | 52 | 92% | 12,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 18,1

With archery
AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking: 15,9 | 55 | 92% | 14,7 | 70 | 1,43 | 21,1

That's strange, do the numbers lie? I mean both the ammo and the launcher claim to be higher for longbow ....

[VeryAngryFelid]

I don't know, I don't see base damage in description of arrows. Maybe I did something wrong last time, it looks ok now.

With archery.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.19.1
Attack: Hill Orc Berserker vs. stone giant (4000 rounds) (2016/12/23/10:08:07)
Hill Orc Berserker: XL 1   Str 19   Int 7   Dex 10
Wielding: +9 fustibalus of velocity with 30 sling bullets, Skill: Slings
stone giant: HD 16   AC 12   EV 2

    Slings | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      9,9 |     36 |      91% |   9,1 |   140  |  0,71 |      6,5
         1 |      9,7 |     34 |      91% |   8,9 |   135  |  0,74 |      6,6
         2 |      9,9 |     35 |      92% |   9,1 |   130  |  0,77 |      7,0
         3 |     10,1 |     35 |      92% |   9,3 |   125  |  0,80 |      7,5
         4 |     10,4 |     38 |      92% |   9,6 |   120  |  0,83 |      8,0
         5 |     10,2 |     37 |      91% |   9,4 |   115  |  0,87 |      8,2
         6 |     10,4 |     39 |      92% |   9,6 |   110  |  0,91 |      8,7
         7 |     10,6 |     39 |      91% |   9,7 |   105  |  0,95 |      9,3
         8 |     10,7 |     44 |      92% |   9,8 |   100  |  1,00 |      9,8
         9 |     10,8 |     41 |      92% |  10,0 |    95  |  1,05 |     10,5
        10 |     11,1 |     43 |      92% |  10,2 |    90  |  1,11 |     11,4
        11 |     11,3 |     42 |      92% |  10,5 |    85  |  1,18 |     12,4
        12 |     11,3 |     40 |      92% |  10,5 |    80  |  1,25 |     13,1
        13 |     11,6 |     44 |      92% |  10,8 |    75  |  1,33 |     14,4
        14 |     11,8 |     40 |      92% |  10,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     15,6
        15 |     12,1 |     47 |      92% |  11,3 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,1
        16 |     12,2 |     43 |      92% |  11,4 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,2
        17 |     12,1 |     44 |      92% |  11,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,0
        18 |     12,6 |     50 |      91% |  11,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,4
        19 |     12,7 |     47 |      93% |  11,8 |    70  |  1,43 |     16,9
        20 |     12,8 |     52 |      93% |  11,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,0
        21 |     13,1 |     47 |      93% |  12,2 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,4
        22 |     12,9 |     48 |      93% |  12,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,1
        23 |     13,2 |     50 |      93% |  12,4 |    70  |  1,43 |     17,6
        24 |     13,5 |     51 |      93% |  12,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,0
        25 |     13,6 |     53 |      93% |  12,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,1
        26 |     13,7 |     54 |      93% |  12,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,4
        27 |     13,9 |     48 |      93% |  13,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     18,6
-----------------------------------


  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.19.1
Attack: Hill Orc Berserker vs. stone giant (4000 rounds) (2016/12/23/10:08:47)
Hill Orc Berserker: XL 1   Str 19   Int 7   Dex 10
Wielding: +9 longbow of velocity with 30 arrows, Skill: Bows
stone giant: HD 16   AC 12   EV 2

      Bows | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     11,9 |     40 |      91% |  10,9 |   170  |  0,59 |      6,4
         1 |     12,1 |     44 |      91% |  11,1 |   165  |  0,61 |      6,8
         2 |     12,2 |     41 |      92% |  11,3 |   160  |  0,62 |      7,0
         3 |     12,2 |     44 |      91% |  11,2 |   155  |  0,65 |      7,2
         4 |     12,6 |     42 |      92% |  11,6 |   150  |  0,67 |      7,7
         5 |     12,7 |     46 |      92% |  11,7 |   145  |  0,69 |      8,1
         6 |     12,8 |     48 |      91% |  11,8 |   140  |  0,71 |      8,4
         7 |     13,1 |     50 |      93% |  12,2 |   135  |  0,74 |      9,0
         8 |     13,3 |     46 |      91% |  12,2 |   130  |  0,77 |      9,4
         9 |     13,4 |     47 |      92% |  12,4 |   125  |  0,80 |      9,9
        10 |     13,5 |     46 |      91% |  12,4 |   120  |  0,83 |     10,3
        11 |     14,2 |     52 |      92% |  13,1 |   115  |  0,87 |     11,4
        12 |     14,3 |     54 |      93% |  13,4 |   110  |  0,91 |     12,2
        13 |     14,4 |     54 |      93% |  13,5 |   105  |  0,95 |     12,8
        14 |     14,6 |     51 |      92% |  13,5 |   100  |  1,00 |     13,5
        15 |     14,6 |     61 |      92% |  13,6 |    95  |  1,05 |     14,3
        16 |     14,9 |     53 |      93% |  13,9 |    90  |  1,11 |     15,4
        17 |     15,0 |     56 |      93% |  14,0 |    85  |  1,18 |     16,5
        18 |     15,2 |     57 |      93% |  14,1 |    80  |  1,25 |     17,6
        19 |     15,6 |     56 |      93% |  14,6 |    75  |  1,33 |     19,5
        20 |     15,7 |     62 |      93% |  14,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     21,0
        21 |     16,0 |     55 |      93% |  15,0 |    70  |  1,43 |     21,4
        22 |     15,9 |     63 |      92% |  14,7 |    70  |  1,43 |     21,0
        23 |     16,3 |     60 |      92% |  15,1 |    70  |  1,43 |     21,6
        24 |     16,6 |     64 |      93% |  15,5 |    70  |  1,43 |     22,1
        25 |     17,0 |     60 |      93% |  15,8 |    70  |  1,43 |     22,6
        26 |     17,1 |     61 |      93% |  15,9 |    70  |  1,43 |     22,8
        27 |     17,7 |     65 |      93% |  16,6 |    70  |  1,43 |     23,7
-----------------------------------



[archaeo]

edit: archaeo wants holiday cheer so I'll do it for him

Thanks! FWIW, I tend to side with the devs in re: Fo changes and the Antoine de Saint Exupéry thing, but I also think you made a really cool and unique species that improves the game by its presence, and your orc ending is pretty rad too.

[tasonir]

I'm not sure it really matters with the whole "DCSS is not designed by polls" thing, but I'd give Fo large rocks at least. You could add giant clubs, I wouldn't use them (I'd rather have the shield), so that one doesn't really matter much to me. With the change that made large rock throw delay follow weapon skills rather than unarmed skills, you now need* high throwing skill to make large rocks truly effective, so it isn't really overpowering in the same way as it used to be.

*You can still throw a large rock with low skill if nothing is close to you and hope for a lucky hit, but at roughly 20 aut a throw and low accuracy it's not very reliable until you have significant throwing skill (probably a minimum of 10 and 15 is better, etc).

[PleasingFungus]

fo with large rocks wouldn't break the game, but i don't see any particular reason to give them it, either.

[dynast]

fo with large rocks wouldn't break the game, but i don't see any particular reason to give them it, either.

How about "because ammo aquirement got removed and i dont want to resort to tomahawks and small stones on a race that can wield a longbow and shield".

[luckums_wormsnacker]

fo with large rocks wouldn't break the game, but i don't see any particular reason to give them it, either.

Ants in real life are sorta famous for the whole "carry giant stuff around" thing. It makes a sort of intrinsic sense that ant-people SHOULD be able to carry and throw giant rocks to me. I think things that add flavor/fun without actually affecting gameplay much are a good thing.

Formicid's description says "With the ability to lift ten times their own weight, the Formicids have strength rivaling that of ogres." Ogres can hold large rocks, formicids are as strong as ogres, ergo they can hold giant rocks.

Also, it'd be nice to have a third giant-rock species. Having a third one who CAN do it but isn't really amazing at it might be neat, since ogre and troll both have giant-rock-thrower as a recommended start.

Also come on, the idea of ants carrying giant rocks is insanely fun: https://www.colourbox.com/preview/4826995-rock-carvings-ant-tales.jpg

[Elitist]

Also come on, the idea of ants carrying giant rocks is insanely fun: https://www.colourbox.com/preview/4826995-rock-carvings-ant-tales.jpg

I think fun is good justification if it doesn't break the game.

[Sar]

I think fun is good justification

for removing something