Halls Hopper
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Joined: Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 06:37
Remove Ogre M&F Aptitude
Maybe just turn ogres into shitty mages or something idk
If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Halls Hopper
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Slime Squisher
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Halls Hopper
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papilio wrote:Actually today Ogre's apts are greatly changed. (M&F -1, Staves +0, Magic schools -1)
Slime Squisher
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Ultraviolent4 wrote:papilio wrote:Actually today Ogre's apts are greatly changed. (M&F -1, Staves +0, Magic schools -1)
Oh it looks like the devs implemented my suggestion already.
I've thought about it some more, though, and I think that ogres should just be removed entirely.
Ogres are now a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay, feeling somewhat like trolls but with better magic aptitudes. Their theme originates from Tolkien, a source of lore that crawl is trying to borrow less from these days. Their ability to throw large rocks not withstanding, this particular Tolkien reference isn't particularly interesting.
Halls Hopper
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Shtopit wrote:Where did you find this kind of ogres in Tolkien? They don't appear directly in his books, they only are casually named once, possibly as legendary, and there is no reference to their magic and melee or what they do in general.
Crypt Cleanser
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http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ogres wrote:Ogres were a race mentioned only fleetingly once, in The Hobbit.
Swamp Slogger
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Ultraviolent4 wrote:Are you trying to troll me? Please don't be a troll in a thread about ogres.
Halls Hopper
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papilio wrote: Eveningstar + Large shield combo would be optimal for Ogres.
Tomb Titivator
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Shoals Surfer
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Spider Stomper
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Crawl Design Philosophy wrote:Major design goals
* challenging and random gameplay, with skill making a real difference
* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)
* avoidance of grinding (no scumming)
* gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie suppor
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ultraviolent4 wrote:Are you trying to troll me? Please don't be a troll in a thread about ogres.
Lair Larrikin
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duvessa wrote: * meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)
Spider Stomper
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duvessa wrote:Crawl Design Philosophy wrote:* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)
Tartarus Sorceror
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Dioneo wrote:A bit rich of you to be calling other people "trolls", don't you think
Temple Termagant
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Doesnt wrote:If I was playing an Ogre, it was probably because I didn't want to think much about weapons and just wanted to use the shiniest mace I could.
Halls Hopper
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Rast wrote:Dioneo wrote:A bit rich of you to be calling other people "trolls", don't you think
Oooh, new DemiseAU! I don't watch his gameplay videos, but the ones where he talks about Crawl are great.
Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human 100 100 100 100 100 100 75 75 100
High Elf 110 90 90 110 110 100 75 67 150
Grey Elf 140 75 70 100 140 100 75 67 140
Deep Elf 140 70 65 80 140 100 75 67 140
Sludge Elf 140 70 75 100 130 100 75 82 120
Mountain Dwarf 60 110 150 130 70 80 75 45 130
Hill Orc 90 140 150 100 80 100 75 75 100
Merfolk 160 60 90 70 100 120 75 75 120
Halfling 150 70 60 70 130 100 75 67 100
Gnome 150 70 70 80 120 70 90 45 110
Kobold 140 70 60 70 130 100 75 60 100
Spriggan 170 50 50 50 180 60 97 52 130
Naga 150 150 40 100 140 100 75 75 120
Centaur 180 170 200 170 180 150 75 97 140
Ogre 140 150 200 150 110 200 97 127 140
Ogre-Mage 170 130 100 130 150 150 75 75 150
Troll 150 130 250 150 150 200 112 135 150
Minotaur 80 80 130 100 80 120 97 127 140
Kenku 90 90 100 80 100 100 120 75 130
Draconian Red 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
White 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Green 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Yellow 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Grey 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Black 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Purple 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 67 130
Mottled 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 75 130
Pale 200 120 120 100 100 100 75 67 130
Demigod 110 110 110 110 110 110 82 82 160
Demonspawn 110 110 110 110 110 110 60 82 140
Mummy 140 140 140 140 140 140 105 105 150
Ghoul 110 110 80 100 110 120 82 97 120
Vampire 140 90 50 90 110 100 120 75 150
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
High Elf 100 70 70 130 150 150 100 130 80 140 60 100 90
Grey Elf 140 90 95 140 160 160 100 130 80 130 70 100 90
Deep Elf 150 100 105 150 165 165 100 130 80 135 75 75 75
Sludge Elf 80 110 110 130 140 140 100 80 70 100 100 100 100
Mountain Dwarf 70 80 90 65 70 110 120 100 120 120 150 90 120
Hill Orc 70 100 80 70 80 80 110 90 100 130 120 120 130
Merfolk 80 70 90 140 150 50 130 90 100 150 140 140 100
Halfling 120 60 100 120 150 160 130 140 60 50 70 90 50
Gnome 100 75 100 100 130 140 130 110 100 80 100 90 60
Kobold 80 60 100 110 140 150 110 100 60 70 80 90 50
Spriggan 150 90 140 150 160 180 150 130 90 70 70 100 70
Naga 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 100 120 120 120 120 120
Centaur 100 120 110 110 110 110 110 100 60 75 60 85 80
Ogre 100 140 120 100 100 110 120 130 100 150 150 180 150
Ogre-Mage 100 110 100 100 100 100 100 100 150 150 150 150 150
Troll 140 150 150 150 130 150 150 100 130 180 180 180 180
Minotaur 70 70 70 70 70 70 70 80 90 90 90 90 90
Kenku 100 75 75 75 75 75 75 80 90 100 80 80 90
Draconian Red 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
White 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Green 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Yellow 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Grey 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Black 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Purple 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Mottled 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Pale 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 120 120 120 120 120
Demigod 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110
Demonspawn 100 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110
Mummy 100 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140
Ghoul 80 110 110 110 110 110 110 80 130 130 130 130 130
Vampire 110 90 100 110 140 110 140 90 140 140 140 140 140
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human 130 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
High Elf 91 90 70 110 130 90 90 110 100 100 70 130 130
Grey Elf 78 90 50 90 130 80 80 80 90 90 60 150 110
Deep Elf 71 80 50 80 70 75 75 75 90 90 80 100 80
Sludge Elf 91 130 130 90 90 100 60 130 80 80 80 80 80
Mountain Dwarf 208 120 150 150 160 150 120 130 70 130 150 70 130
Hill Orc 195 100 120 120 100 150 160 160 100 100 150 100 110
Merfolk 130 140 90 100 150 140 60 80 160 80 150 150 80
Halfling 169 130 100 120 150 100 150 140 100 100 90 100 120
Gnome 156 100 100 110 130 130 120 120 100 100 170 60 130
Kobold 143 110 110 105 105 100 110 130 100 100 100 100 100
Spriggan 78 160 50 150 120 50 60 70 140 140 120 120 100
Naga 130 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 60
Centaur 182 120 110 120 120 120 120 130 120 120 120 120 130
Ogre 286 180 220 200 150 200 200 200 150 150 200 120 150
Ogre-Mage 91 100 80 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
Troll 260 160 200 160 150 160 160 200 160 160 200 120 160
Minotaur 234 170 170 170 170 170 170 170 170 170 170 170 170
Kenku 130 60 160 70 80 150 150 180 90 120 90 120 100
Draconian Red 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 70 135 100 100 100
Green 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 70
White 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 135 70 100 100 100
Yellow 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
Grey 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
Black 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 70 135 100
Purple 91 100 90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
Mottled 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 80 100 100 100 100
Pale 130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100 90 100 90 100 100
Demigod 143 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110
Demonspawn 130 100 110 100 90 110 110 110 100 110 110 110 100
Mummy 130 140 140 140 100 140 140 140 140 140 140 140 140
Ghoul 156 130 130 120 100 120 120 120 150 90 150 90 100
Vampire 130 160 90 100 90 140 90 120 140 100 100 120 120
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D Inv Evo Exp
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre 140 150 200 150 110 200 97 127 140
Ogre-Mage 170 130 100 130 150 150 75 75 150
0.5 Ogre 150 120 150 150 120 150 75 120 110
Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre 100 140 120 100 100 110 120 130 100 150 150 180 150
Ogre-Mage 100 110 100 100 100 100 100 100 150 150 150 150 150
0.5 Ogre 70 200 180 180 90 110 120 110 80 180 180 180 180
Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre 286 180 220 200 150 200 200 200 150 150 200 120 150
Ogre-Mage 91 100 80 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
0.5 Ogre 91 160 160 160 160 160 160 160 160 160 160 160 160
Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:Now ONE of those aptitudes has been dialed back and people are mad.
Zot Zealot
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Halls Hopper
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chequers wrote:Merfolk don't get a unique merfolk-only polearm.
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Slime Squisher
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Ultraviolent4 wrote:
Then they should.
The main concern, as I see it, is that we should be looking to remove no-brainers from crawl. Indeed, this is a stated major design goal of the crawl devs and for good reason; almost everyone would agree that an obvious decision is a boring one.
When Ogres have a +3 M&F aptitude and a special weapon of that type, you should train that skill every time. However, by dropping the M&F aptitude to -1 and keeping the special weapon, a much more interesting choice arises. Should an Ogre train M&F, with the ultimate promise of a GSC, when they have a slightly disfavoured aptitude for it or should they just use a polearm or staff which they have a standard aptitude for?
Off the top of my head, the same no-brainer problem exists for Trolls and Merfolk. Trolls start the game with a kind of special weapon in the form of claws 3 and their best aptitude is Unarmed Combat. This makes the use of their claws the obvious choice every single time. As you say, Merfolk don't have a special form of polearm but their +4 aptitude for Polearms is so overwhelmingly strong that it's still a no-brainer.
The devs could apply the same kind of solution to Trolls and Merfolk as they just did with Ogres. If we drop the Unarmed Combat aptitude of Trolls then the decision wouldn't be so obvious to always use their claws. Merfolk is a little bit trickier because, if you only lower their Polearms aptitude, there is no longer an incentive to use that type of weapon. The further step of adding a Merfolk-only polearm would once again present an interesting dilemma and remedy the no-brainer which currently exists.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Slime Squisher
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Temple Termagant
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duvessa wrote:It's true that the new version of ogre resembles 0.4 ogre mage a little more than it resembles last week's ogre, but ogre was just ogre-mage with worse aptitudes until 0.8 when it got fighting, maces, and hp buffed. And giant clubs/GSCs/maces in general have been buffed since 0.4, and ogres' experience aptitude and the effect of strength have been greatly buffed since 0.4. Now ONE of those aptitudes has been dialed back and people are mad.
Abyss Ambulator
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papilio wrote:Ultraviolent4 wrote:
Then they should.
The main concern, as I see it, is that we should be looking to remove no-brainers from crawl. Indeed, this is a stated major design goal of the crawl devs and for good reason; almost everyone would agree that an obvious decision is a boring one.
When Ogres have a +3 M&F aptitude and a special weapon of that type, you should train that skill every time. However, by dropping the M&F aptitude to -1 and keeping the special weapon, a much more interesting choice arises. Should an Ogre train M&F, with the ultimate promise of a GSC, when they have a slightly disfavoured aptitude for it or should they just use a polearm or staff which they have a standard aptitude for?
Off the top of my head, the same no-brainer problem exists for Trolls and Merfolk. Trolls start the game with a kind of special weapon in the form of claws 3 and their best aptitude is Unarmed Combat. This makes the use of their claws the obvious choice every single time. As you say, Merfolk don't have a special form of polearm but their +4 aptitude for Polearms is so overwhelmingly strong that it's still a no-brainer.
The devs could apply the same kind of solution to Trolls and Merfolk as they just did with Ogres. If we drop the Unarmed Combat aptitude of Trolls then the decision wouldn't be so obvious to always use their claws. Merfolk is a little bit trickier because, if you only lower their Polearms aptitude, there is no longer an incentive to use that type of weapon. The further step of adding a Merfolk-only polearm would once again present an interesting dilemma and remedy the no-brainer which currently exists.
That's the personalities and characteristics of species.
Old crawl originally differentiated apts on different weapon types, because the old devs thought that doing so would "depict" the "characteristics" of species.
You're saying every apts of weapons must be flatten down or unified, then why the fucking aptitudes of weapons do exist?
Merge all apts of attacking skills to three. Fighting, Melee Combat, Ranged Combat. Are all of you happy now?
duvessa wrote:Guess I should bring up this post again.
Ziggurat Zagger
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tabstorm wrote:This is actually good though, Sil does it and it's fine. Weapon aptitudes are power levels and nothing else. How often do you say "Oh man, I seriously need to Make An Interesting Decision Between Long Blades And Axes?" Hint: never. You can almost always count on drops and acquirement to give you a weapon of sufficient quality, in the basetype you started with, to enchant to +9 and use to finish the game. If you can afford to allocate XP to a skill for zero returns for quite some time, as in, transitioning to a new weapon skill based on a drop, you really do not need the power level boost from the new weapon type! This is because the concern of finding a suitable long-term enchant target is not a real concern. I take issue with the idea that "what weapon type do I use" is an interesting decision. There is not really a big difference between how you play with each weapon type except Polearms to some extent, and Axes are good for lazy people like me.
Shoals Surfer
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Dungeon Master
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tabstorm wrote:The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps
Abyss Ambulator
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:tabstorm wrote:This is actually good though, Sil does it and it's fine. Weapon aptitudes are power levels and nothing else. How often do you say "Oh man, I seriously need to Make An Interesting Decision Between Long Blades And Axes?" Hint: never. You can almost always count on drops and acquirement to give you a weapon of sufficient quality, in the basetype you started with, to enchant to +9 and use to finish the game. If you can afford to allocate XP to a skill for zero returns for quite some time, as in, transitioning to a new weapon skill based on a drop, you really do not need the power level boost from the new weapon type! This is because the concern of finding a suitable long-term enchant target is not a real concern. I take issue with the idea that "what weapon type do I use" is an interesting decision. There is not really a big difference between how you play with each weapon type except Polearms to some extent, and Axes are good for lazy people like me.
Some combos are very powerful early game so they can afford investing skill points into skills they currently don't use hoping that will make their late game easier. Typical example is SpEn, you don't need Conjurations, Tornado, Necromancy or Summonings before very late game but getting some of those is a very good idea.
Similarly, I can be fine with OgHu using dagger of electro early game (and I will train some Short Blades for that) but in the long run I know that G(S)C deals crazy damage so I will try to get it to min dealy eventually, because it will make fighting orbs of fire and alike much easier.
Also I choose between axes and non-axes all the time, actually I get 2 (and sometimes 3) high end weapons from different categories quite often. My last 3 online non-Felid games, for example:
HOAr
MiAr
FoFi
Lasty wrote:tabstorm wrote:The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps
A design philosophy is a useful thing for keeping disparate people with different opinions moving overall in the same direction, but it's not a magic spell that instantly makes the game the Platonic ideal of itself.
Ziggurat Zagger
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tabstorm wrote:Just because you did something doesn't mean it was actually a good idea. There are also crucial differences between spells and weapons, namely that you can in principle win with level 6-7 spells, without too much difficulty, but you are absolutely going to gimp yourself if you choose to stop using Polearms once you have a halberd at min delay, for example.
Halberd | 43 | 123 | 448 | 863 | 1525 | 396 | | | || 3398
Glaive | | | | | | 1565 | 664 | | 321 || 2550
Bardiche | | | | | | | 1217 | 1457 | 1428 || 4102
Battleaxe | | | | | | | 13 | 66 | 252 || 331
Lajatang | | | | | | | | 227 | 1456 || 1683
Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Short Blades | 2 3 | 3.5
Polearms | 2 4 6 8 9 11 12 13 15 16 17 20 23 25 | 25.6
Axes | 11 | 11.7
Abyss Ambulator
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Fighting | 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 27 | 27.0
Axes | 1 12 17 20 | 20.6
Short Blades | 2 4 5 7 9 | 9.6
Evocations | 4 6 8 9 11 13 14 | 14.9
Long Blades | 5 7 9 10 12 13 | 13.0
Ziggurat Zagger
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Swamp Slogger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Dioneo wrote:I wonder how it would be if weapon aptitudes were more like resistances currently are; there is not a skill of "poison resistance" which constantly increases in tiny increments, you either have it or you don't. What if weapons were like that? Rather than "leveling" your skill with axes or whatever, you'd just be given axe proficiency at character creation which would allow you to use axes without penalty. Attack delay would be fixed for each kind of weapon and damage would scale with XL/Str/Dex or something like that.
Dungeon Master
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tabstorm wrote:Lasty wrote:tabstorm wrote:The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps
A design philosophy is a useful thing for keeping disparate people with different opinions moving overall in the same direction, but it's not a magic spell that instantly makes the game the Platonic ideal of itself.
No kidding, and this is actually good, but let's not pretend that philosophy isn't willingly ignored at times when the feature in question is deemed sufficiently interesting to warrant it. I'm pretty sure I've seen the same argument against the current iteration of traps since I started playing in around 0.13, and yet we had new traps added in 0.16, for example, and just had a thread explicitly defending shafts as being interesting enough to overlook the degenerate play they encourage.
Lair Larrikin
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Siegurt wrote:If ogres were overpowered then this was a decent nerf
b-but large clubs drop like hotcakes
Crypt Cleanser
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lair Larrikin
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Hellmonk wrote:Well considering that ogres are way better than nagas
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Barkeep
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removeelyvilon wrote:Note to mods: I know you don't like it when somebody just posts a picture w/o text but this expresses my opinion better than any words ever could.
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