Remove Ogre M&F Aptitude

[Ultraviolent4]

Making ogres +3 at maces and flails settles all the interesting weapon decisions because you should always pick maces. Also, GSC are the most damaging weapons in the game so they should require a lot of training and effort to use them.

Maybe just turn ogres into shitty mages or something idk

[duvessa]

og still has some of the most damaging melee in the game

[papilio]

Actually today Ogre's apts are greatly changed. (M&F -1, Staves +0, Magic schools -1)

I would never use GSCs after today's Ogre rework. Eveningstar + Large shield combo would be optimal for Ogres.

[Ultraviolent4]

Actually today Ogre's apts are greatly changed. (M&F -1, Staves +0, Magic schools -1)

Oh it looks like the devs implemented my suggestion already.

I've thought about it some more, though, and I think that ogres should just be removed entirely.

Ogres are now a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay, feeling somewhat like trolls but with better magic aptitudes. Their theme originates from Tolkien, a source of lore that crawl is trying to borrow less from these days. Their ability to throw large rocks not withstanding, this particular Tolkien reference isn't particularly interesting.

[papilio]

After rework, Ogres are indeed distinctive/unique as 'casting giants'.

Yet I don't know their gameplay would be fun cause CWZ's trunk branch is not up-to-date... hmm.
But at least they don't seem weak for me. I think today's patch is like completely removing Ogre and bringing back Ogre Mages.

[Shtopit]

Actually today Ogre's apts are greatly changed. (M&F -1, Staves +0, Magic schools -1)

Oh it looks like the devs implemented my suggestion already.

I've thought about it some more, though, and I think that ogres should just be removed entirely.

Ogres are now a relatively uninteresting species in terms of gameplay, feeling somewhat like trolls but with better magic aptitudes. Their theme originates from Tolkien, a source of lore that crawl is trying to borrow less from these days. Their ability to throw large rocks not withstanding, this particular Tolkien reference isn't particularly interesting.

Where did you find this kind of ogres in Tolkien? They don't appear directly in his books, they only are casually named once, possibly as legendary, and there is no reference to their magic and melee or what they do in general.

[Ultraviolent4]

Where did you find this kind of ogres in Tolkien? They don't appear directly in his books, they only are casually named once, possibly as legendary, and there is no reference to their magic and melee or what they do in general.

Are you trying to troll me? Please don't be a troll in a thread about ogres.

[stickyfingers]

Ogres were a race mentioned only fleetingly once, in The Hobbit.

[Dioneo]

Are you trying to troll me? Please don't be a troll in a thread about ogres.

A bit rich of you to be calling other people "trolls", don't you think

[Ultraviolent4]

Eveningstar + Large shield combo would be optimal for Ogres.

Why would an eveningstar be preferable to a demon trident?

[ZipZipskins]

Also hey guys an average m+f apt doesn't mean "stop using giant clubs"

[Shtopit]

Ah, I had not noticed that it was a reference to the reasons for removal. Ogres aren't tolkienesque, but orcs totally are (orc was a long unused Old English word that he revived for his works). Halflings also are an obvious reference, the fact that they are good at slings is a reference to Bilbo throwing rocks, and their resistance to mutation is a reference to the fact that hobbits were somewhat resilient to the effect of the Ring.

Other races may not have come into standard fantasy through the Tolkien bottleneck, but it is his version that is predominant. So "high fantasy" elves (that don't have much to do with the Elfin Knight), or dwarves - a plural form that was made popular by Tolkien, who battled against editors to keep it that way, because they kept changing it to "dwarfs", and his dwarves are quite different from those of chivalric novels.

Bottleneck nr 2 is D&D, which however is a lot more flattening and has a tendency to turn all races into one trick ponies or stereotypes, while Tolkien races generally contain more nuances each.

[removeelyvilon]

Note to mods: I know you don't like it when somebody just posts a picture w/o text but this expresses my opinion better than any words ever could.

[Doesnt]

Legit question: What was wrong with Ogres being good at clubbing things? If I was playing an Ogre, it was probably because I didn't want to think much about weapons and just wanted to use the shiniest mace I could.

Interesting weapon-type decisions still exist for most other races, and Ogres themselves had to make decisions about which spells they're picking up. Now they just feel like off-brand humans; if I wanted to play a human I'd pick Human at the start of the game, not Ogre.

(also they're better at polearms than clubs now which seems somewhat insane?)

[duvessa]

Major design goals
* challenging and random gameplay, with skill making a real difference
* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)
* avoidance of grinding (no scumming)
* gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie suppor

[VeryAngryFelid]

Are you trying to troll me? Please don't be a troll in a thread about ogres.

Well, by my definition a troll is a guy who first asks to make ogres similar to other species and then in the same thread asks to remove ogres as being too similar to other species after the first change...

I played old ogres often, now there is no reason to play them indeed.

[xXxMemekMaestro69xXx]

* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)

Geez, looks like the devteam are immediately disqualified for not following Crawl's design philosophy most of the time.

[Doesnt]

* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)

guess i should get my troll games out of the way now while i can

[Rast]

A bit rich of you to be calling other people "trolls", don't you think

Oooh, new DemiseAU! I don't watch his gameplay videos, but the ones where he talks about Crawl are great.

[Orange]

If I was playing an Ogre, it was probably because I didn't want to think much about weapons and just wanted to use the shiniest mace I could.

That's the thing.
They tried to make them more plain in attemt to encourage variablity, which in normal Ogres being only Giant Spiked Clubs vs Smaller Spiked Clubs, with an occasional Chei sorcery. With -3 aptitudes for everything else there wasn't much a choice.
Since an attempt at more magical giant with Basajaunak seemingly sucked balls, they fused them.
Ironically enough, the result turned out exactly like the long deleted Ogre-mage, who had very similar aptitudes. Or was that intentional?

[Ultraviolent4]

A bit rich of you to be calling other people "trolls", don't you think

Oooh, new DemiseAU! I don't watch his gameplay videos, but the ones where he talks about Crawl are great.

Yea Demise is pretty good but I'm not sure about that other guy

[duvessa]

Here are the aptitudes for the last stable version with ogre-mage (0.4).

  Code:

                Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D   Inv Evo                 Exp
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human           100 100 100 100 100 100    75  75                 100
High Elf        110  90  90 110 110 100    75  67                 150
Grey Elf        140  75  70 100 140 100    75  67                 140
Deep Elf        140  70  65  80 140 100    75  67                 140
Sludge Elf      140  70  75 100 130 100    75  82                 120
Mountain Dwarf   60 110 150 130  70  80    75  45                 130
Hill Orc         90 140 150 100  80 100    75  75                 100
Merfolk         160  60  90  70 100 120    75  75                 120
Halfling        150  70  60  70 130 100    75  67                 100
Gnome           150  70  70  80 120  70    90  45                 110
Kobold          140  70  60  70 130 100    75  60                 100
Spriggan        170  50  50  50 180  60    97  52                 130
Naga            150 150  40 100 140 100    75  75                 120
Centaur         180 170 200 170 180 150    75  97                 140
Ogre            140 150 200 150 110 200    97 127                 140
Ogre-Mage       170 130 100 130 150 150    75  75                 150
Troll           150 130 250 150 150 200   112 135                 150
Minotaur         80  80 130 100  80 120    97 127                 140
Kenku            90  90 100  80 100 100   120  75                 130
Draconian Red   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
        White   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
        Green   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
       Yellow   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
         Grey   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
        Black   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
       Purple   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  67                 130
      Mottled   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  75                 130
         Pale   200 120 120 100 100 100    75  67                 130
Demigod         110 110 110 110 110 110    82  82                 160
Demonspawn      110 110 110 110 110 110    60  82                 140
Mummy           140 140 140 140 140 140   105 105                 150
Ghoul           110 110  80 100 110 120    82  97                 120
Vampire         140  90  50  90 110 100   120  75                 150
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D   Inv Evo                 Exp

                Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C   Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human           100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
High Elf        100  70  70 130 150 150 100 130    80 140  60 100  90
Grey Elf        140  90  95 140 160 160 100 130    80 130  70 100  90
Deep Elf        150 100 105 150 165 165 100 130    80 135  75  75  75
Sludge Elf       80 110 110 130 140 140 100  80    70 100 100 100 100
Mountain Dwarf   70  80  90  65  70 110 120 100   120 120 150  90 120
Hill Orc         70 100  80  70  80  80 110  90   100 130 120 120 130
Merfolk          80  70  90 140 150  50 130  90   100 150 140 140 100
Halfling        120  60 100 120 150 160 130 140    60  50  70  90  50
Gnome           100  75 100 100 130 140 130 110   100  80 100  90  60
Kobold           80  60 100 110 140 150 110 100    60  70  80  90  50
Spriggan        150  90 140 150 160 180 150 130    90  70  70 100  70
Naga            100 100 100 100 100 100 120 100   120 120 120 120 120
Centaur         100 120 110 110 110 110 110 100    60  75  60  85  80
Ogre            100 140 120 100 100 110 120 130   100 150 150 180 150
Ogre-Mage       100 110 100 100 100 100 100 100   150 150 150 150 150
Troll           140 150 150 150 130 150 150 100   130 180 180 180 180
Minotaur         70  70  70  70  70  70  70  80    90  90  90  90  90
Kenku           100  75  75  75  75  75  75  80    90 100  80  80  90
Draconian Red    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
        White    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
        Green    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
       Yellow    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
         Grey    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
        Black    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
       Purple    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
      Mottled    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
         Pale    90 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   120 120 120 120 120
Demigod         110 110 110 110 110 110 110 110   110 110 110 110 110
Demonspawn      100 110 110 110 110 110 110 110   110 110 110 110 110
Mummy           100 140 140 140 140 140 140 140   140 140 140 140 140
Ghoul            80 110 110 110 110 110 110  80   130 130 130 130 130
Vampire         110  90 100 110 140 110 140  90   140 140 140 140 140
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C   Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt

                Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div   Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Human           130 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
High Elf         91  90  70 110 130  90  90 110   100 100  70 130 130
Grey Elf         78  90  50  90 130  80  80  80    90  90  60 150 110
Deep Elf         71  80  50  80  70  75  75  75    90  90  80 100  80
Sludge Elf       91 130 130  90  90 100  60 130    80  80  80  80  80
Mountain Dwarf  208 120 150 150 160 150 120 130    70 130 150  70 130
Hill Orc        195 100 120 120 100 150 160 160   100 100 150 100 110
Merfolk         130 140  90 100 150 140  60  80   160  80 150 150  80
Halfling        169 130 100 120 150 100 150 140   100 100  90 100 120
Gnome           156 100 100 110 130 130 120 120   100 100 170  60 130
Kobold          143 110 110 105 105 100 110 130   100 100 100 100 100
Spriggan         78 160  50 150 120  50  60  70   140 140 120 120 100
Naga            130 100 100 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100  60
Centaur         182 120 110 120 120 120 120 130   120 120 120 120 130
Ogre            286 180 220 200 150 200 200 200   150 150 200 120 150
Ogre-Mage        91 100  80 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
Troll           260 160 200 160 150 160 160 200   160 160 200 120 160
Minotaur        234 170 170 170 170 170 170 170   170 170 170 170 170
Kenku           130  60 160  70  80 150 150 180    90 120  90 120 100
Draconian Red   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100    70 135 100 100 100
        Green   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100  70
        White   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100   135  70 100 100 100
       Yellow   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
         Grey   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
        Black   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100   100 100  70 135 100
       Purple    91 100  90 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
      Mottled   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100    80 100 100 100 100
         Pale   130 100 120 100 100 100 100 100    90 100  90 100 100
Demigod         143 110 110 110 110 110 110 110   110 110 110 110 110
Demonspawn      130 100 110 100  90 110 110 110   100 110 110 110 100
Mummy           130 140 140 140 100 140 140 140   140 140 140 140 140
Ghoul           156 130 130 120 100 120 120 120   150  90 150  90 100
Vampire         130 160  90 100  90 140  90 120   140 100 100 120 120
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div   Fir Ice Air Ear Poi

  Code:

                Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D   Inv Evo                 Exp
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre            140 150 200 150 110 200    97 127                 140
Ogre-Mage       170 130 100 130 150 150    75  75                 150
0.5 Ogre        150 120 150 150 120 150    75 120                 110

                Fgt SBl LBl Axs M&F Pla Stv U C   Thr Slg Bws Crb Drt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre            100 140 120 100 100 110 120 130   100 150 150 180 150
Ogre-Mage       100 110 100 100 100 100 100 100   150 150 150 150 150
0.5 Ogre         70 200 180 180  90 110 120 110    80 180 180 180 180

                Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm Div   Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ogre            286 180 220 200 150 200 200 200   150 150 200 120 150
Ogre-Mage        91 100  80 100 100 100 100 100   100 100 100 100 100
0.5 Ogre         91 160 160 160 160 160 160 160   160 160 160 160 160

(HP and MP gain per level were very different in old versions; they were randomized. 0.4 ogres and trolls got +1.5 hp per level, -0.66 mp per level, and +1 strength every 3 levels. Ogre mages got +1 hp per level and +1 intelligence or strength every 5 levels. 0.5 ogre got +1 hp per level and +1 strength every 3 levels. Note that strength did almost nothing in these versions.)

It's true that the new version of ogre resembles 0.4 ogre mage a little more than it resembles last week's ogre, but ogre was just ogre-mage with worse aptitudes until 0.8 when it got fighting, maces, and hp buffed. And giant clubs/GSCs/maces in general have been buffed since 0.4, and ogres' experience aptitude and the effect of strength have been greatly buffed since 0.4. Now ONE of those aptitudes has been dialed back and people are mad.

[Ultraviolent4]

Now ONE of those aptitudes has been dialed back and people are mad.

Yea, I don't get it either. If Ogres really have to stay in the game, polearm Ogre sounds like a good way to go.

Now that I think about it, we could apply the same fix to other species that have similar obvious-weapon-type issues. Maybe dial back Polearms on Merfolk to be -1 as well?

[chequers]

Merfolk don't get a unique merfolk-only polearm.

[Ultraviolent4]

Merfolk don't get a unique merfolk-only polearm.

Then they should.

The main concern, as I see it, is that we should be looking to remove no-brainers from crawl. Indeed, this is a stated major design goal of the crawl devs and for good reason; almost everyone would agree that an obvious decision is a boring one.

When Ogres have a +3 M&F aptitude and a special weapon of that type, you should train that skill every time. However, by dropping the M&F aptitude to -1 and keeping the special weapon, a much more interesting choice arises. Should an Ogre train M&F, with the ultimate promise of a GSC, when they have a slightly disfavoured aptitude for it or should they just use a polearm or staff which they have a standard aptitude for?

Off the top of my head, the same no-brainer problem exists for Trolls and Merfolk. Trolls start the game with a kind of special weapon in the form of claws 3 and their best aptitude is Unarmed Combat. This makes the use of their claws the obvious choice every single time. As you say, Merfolk don't have a special form of polearm but their +4 aptitude for Polearms is so overwhelmingly strong that it's still a no-brainer.

The devs could apply the same kind of solution to Trolls and Merfolk as they just did with Ogres. If we drop the Unarmed Combat aptitude of Trolls then the decision wouldn't be so obvious to always use their claws. Merfolk are a little bit trickier because, if you only lower their Polearms aptitude, there is no longer an incentive to use that type of weapon. The further step of adding a Merfolk-only polearm would once again present an interesting dilemma and remedy the no-brainer which currently exists.

[bel]

Re: Mf, an anecdote.

I was playing a MfSu and found a dagger of elec early. Mf have +2 short blade apt and the dagger can get in stabs with summons around. I think the optimal way to play would have been to use dagger early and perhaps switch to polearm later in the game. In the meantime, one can use a polearm with 0 or low skill in the cases where one needs to poke monsters from behind the summons.

[papilio]

Then they should.

The main concern, as I see it, is that we should be looking to remove no-brainers from crawl. Indeed, this is a stated major design goal of the crawl devs and for good reason; almost everyone would agree that an obvious decision is a boring one.

When Ogres have a +3 M&F aptitude and a special weapon of that type, you should train that skill every time. However, by dropping the M&F aptitude to -1 and keeping the special weapon, a much more interesting choice arises. Should an Ogre train M&F, with the ultimate promise of a GSC, when they have a slightly disfavoured aptitude for it or should they just use a polearm or staff which they have a standard aptitude for?

Off the top of my head, the same no-brainer problem exists for Trolls and Merfolk. Trolls start the game with a kind of special weapon in the form of claws 3 and their best aptitude is Unarmed Combat. This makes the use of their claws the obvious choice every single time. As you say, Merfolk don't have a special form of polearm but their +4 aptitude for Polearms is so overwhelmingly strong that it's still a no-brainer.

The devs could apply the same kind of solution to Trolls and Merfolk as they just did with Ogres. If we drop the Unarmed Combat aptitude of Trolls then the decision wouldn't be so obvious to always use their claws. Merfolk is a little bit trickier because, if you only lower their Polearms aptitude, there is no longer an incentive to use that type of weapon. The further step of adding a Merfolk-only polearm would once again present an interesting dilemma and remedy the no-brainer which currently exists.

That's the personalities and characteristics of species.
Old crawl originally differentiated apts on different weapon types, because the old devs thought that doing so would "depict" the "characteristics" of species.

You're saying every apts of weapons must be flatten down or unified, then why the fucking aptitudes of weapons do exist?
Merge all apts of attacking skills to three. Fighting, Melee Combat, Ranged Combat. Are all of you happy now?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Next logical step is to remove size and armour/dodging aptitudes, currently it is no brainer to use light armour with Te or heavy armour with HO. Then remove skill/HP aptitudes and introduce what they really are i.e. difficulty levels. #roadtoperfectcrawl

[papilio]

I'm sick of those ridiculous "no-brainer" rhetorics.

Remove minotaurs, because almost all Mi's plays as warriors. Hey! They're no-brainers!
Remove deep elves, because almost all DE's plays as mages,
Remove sizes, remove aptitudes, ...

Oh! Then the ideal crawl would only have one combination available, Human Wanderer!

[duvessa]

Guess I should bring up this post again.

[Orange]

It's true that the new version of ogre resembles 0.4 ogre mage a little more than it resembles last week's ogre, but ogre was just ogre-mage with worse aptitudes until 0.8 when it got fighting, maces, and hp buffed. And giant clubs/GSCs/maces in general have been buffed since 0.4, and ogres' experience aptitude and the effect of strength have been greatly buffed since 0.4. Now ONE of those aptitudes has been dialed back and people are mad.

I'd say they resemble them now more than a little. Besides, even Ouga mages had better aptitudes at Maces, why -1? Outright discouraging from a racial gimmick, while actually pushing to use magic/staves to compensate seems like a retarded idea. +1 Maces, 0 Staves and Axes seem more reasonable, if the purpose is variability.
As is raising spellcasting back to +2 or even 3, while keeping schools penalties. Not only does this somewhat encouraging spellcasting, but also keeps ogre flavour image stable.
Mages ARE supposed to be a rare thing.

[tabstorm]

Then they should.

The main concern, as I see it, is that we should be looking to remove no-brainers from crawl. Indeed, this is a stated major design goal of the crawl devs and for good reason; almost everyone would agree that an obvious decision is a boring one.

When Ogres have a +3 M&F aptitude and a special weapon of that type, you should train that skill every time. However, by dropping the M&F aptitude to -1 and keeping the special weapon, a much more interesting choice arises. Should an Ogre train M&F, with the ultimate promise of a GSC, when they have a slightly disfavoured aptitude for it or should they just use a polearm or staff which they have a standard aptitude for?

Off the top of my head, the same no-brainer problem exists for Trolls and Merfolk. Trolls start the game with a kind of special weapon in the form of claws 3 and their best aptitude is Unarmed Combat. This makes the use of their claws the obvious choice every single time. As you say, Merfolk don't have a special form of polearm but their +4 aptitude for Polearms is so overwhelmingly strong that it's still a no-brainer.

The devs could apply the same kind of solution to Trolls and Merfolk as they just did with Ogres. If we drop the Unarmed Combat aptitude of Trolls then the decision wouldn't be so obvious to always use their claws. Merfolk is a little bit trickier because, if you only lower their Polearms aptitude, there is no longer an incentive to use that type of weapon. The further step of adding a Merfolk-only polearm would once again present an interesting dilemma and remedy the no-brainer which currently exists.

That's the personalities and characteristics of species.
Old crawl originally differentiated apts on different weapon types, because the old devs thought that doing so would "depict" the "characteristics" of species.

You're saying every apts of weapons must be flatten down or unified, then why the fucking aptitudes of weapons do exist?
Merge all apts of attacking skills to three. Fighting, Melee Combat, Ranged Combat. Are all of you happy now?

This is actually good though, Sil does it and it's fine. Weapon aptitudes are power levels and nothing else. How often do you say "Oh man, I seriously need to Make An Interesting Decision Between Long Blades And Axes?" Hint: never. You can almost always count on drops and acquirement to give you a weapon of sufficient quality, in the basetype you started with, to enchant to +9 and use to finish the game. If you can afford to allocate XP to a skill for zero returns for quite some time, as in, transitioning to a new weapon skill based on a drop, you really do not need the power level boost from the new weapon type! This is because the concern of finding a suitable long-term enchant target is not a real concern. I take issue with the idea that "what weapon type do I use" is an interesting decision. There is not really a big difference between how you play with each weapon type except Polearms to some extent, and Axes are good for lazy people like me.

With that said, I doubt there will ever be a consolidation of melee aptitudes into one skill, so I think it's fine to have a non-decision on weapon type for some races. You want to use polearms, play a merfolk, cool. Or if you want to use a gsc play an ogre and so on.

Guess I should bring up this post again.

The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps

[VeryAngryFelid]

This is actually good though, Sil does it and it's fine. Weapon aptitudes are power levels and nothing else. How often do you say "Oh man, I seriously need to Make An Interesting Decision Between Long Blades And Axes?" Hint: never. You can almost always count on drops and acquirement to give you a weapon of sufficient quality, in the basetype you started with, to enchant to +9 and use to finish the game. If you can afford to allocate XP to a skill for zero returns for quite some time, as in, transitioning to a new weapon skill based on a drop, you really do not need the power level boost from the new weapon type! This is because the concern of finding a suitable long-term enchant target is not a real concern. I take issue with the idea that "what weapon type do I use" is an interesting decision. There is not really a big difference between how you play with each weapon type except Polearms to some extent, and Axes are good for lazy people like me.

Some combos are very powerful early game so they can afford investing skill points into skills they currently don't use hoping that will make their late game easier. Typical example is SpEn, you don't need Conjurations, Tornado, Necromancy or Summonings before very late game but getting some of those is a very good idea.
Similarly, I can be fine with OgHu using dagger of electro early game (and I will train some Short Blades for that) but in the long run I know that G(S)C deals crazy damage so I will try to get it to min dealy eventually, because it will make fighting orbs of fire and alike much easier.

Also I choose between axes and non-axes all the time, actually I get 2 (and sometimes 3) high end weapons from different categories quite often. My last 3 online non-Felid games, for example:

HOAr

  Code:

Level 9.6(12.1) Short Blades
   Level 13.0(14.3) Long Blades
 - Level 20.6 Axes

MiAr

  Code:

Level 3.5(7.5) Short Blades
 - Level 11.7(20.2) Axes
 - Level 25.6(26.2) Polearms

FoFi

  Code:

+ Level 22.7(26.7) Axes
 - Level 25.0(27) Polearms


[NhorianScum]

Ogre's no brainer was never weapon related, unless you count big rocks as a weapon, and those things are a no brainer at -5 aptitude ffs. The apt flattening just kills what was a pretty distinctive book start D1-1st Sbranch hybrid game.

M&F has the same "variety" as flat apts weapon choice, you are either going big 2 hander, heavy 1 hander and board, or fast one hander and board with staves as an option on all of the above.

Please explain how sacrificing flavor and gameplay for the super facinating decision of "axes for heavy mele, swords for mid armor mele, poles for summons, m&f for board, shorts for stabbing" at the loading screen is an improvement? Is making okatrog even more of an obvious temple pick "variety" now?

Edit: Please do not say big caster with flat apts, that exists, is named naga and is hella distinctive. Alternately draconians and formicids offer pseudo bigflatcaster play for those who dislike naga drawbacks.

[Lasty]

The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps

You've been around long enough that you should know better than this. I assume you're well aware that the dev team has been talking about the problems with floor traps for a while now. We tend to move a bit slowly and not always in a linear direction, since a) we're a team of volunteers with differing opinions and b) we tend to take a conservative/incremental approach to major design changes, but I believe that eventually we'll come up with a change to floor traps that will be a net improvement over the status quo. My hope is that we'll have one in 0.20, but I can't promise anything at this point.

A design philosophy is a useful thing for keeping disparate people with different opinions moving overall in the same direction, but it's not a magic spell that instantly makes the game the Platonic ideal of itself. Real people have to do the work, and real people who want to work together need to have some level of consensus.

[tabstorm]

This is actually good though, Sil does it and it's fine. Weapon aptitudes are power levels and nothing else. How often do you say "Oh man, I seriously need to Make An Interesting Decision Between Long Blades And Axes?" Hint: never. You can almost always count on drops and acquirement to give you a weapon of sufficient quality, in the basetype you started with, to enchant to +9 and use to finish the game. If you can afford to allocate XP to a skill for zero returns for quite some time, as in, transitioning to a new weapon skill based on a drop, you really do not need the power level boost from the new weapon type! This is because the concern of finding a suitable long-term enchant target is not a real concern. I take issue with the idea that "what weapon type do I use" is an interesting decision. There is not really a big difference between how you play with each weapon type except Polearms to some extent, and Axes are good for lazy people like me.

Some combos are very powerful early game so they can afford investing skill points into skills they currently don't use hoping that will make their late game easier. Typical example is SpEn, you don't need Conjurations, Tornado, Necromancy or Summonings before very late game but getting some of those is a very good idea.
Similarly, I can be fine with OgHu using dagger of electro early game (and I will train some Short Blades for that) but in the long run I know that G(S)C deals crazy damage so I will try to get it to min dealy eventually, because it will make fighting orbs of fire and alike much easier.

Also I choose between axes and non-axes all the time, actually I get 2 (and sometimes 3) high end weapons from different categories quite often. My last 3 online non-Felid games, for example:

HOAr

  Code:

Level 9.6(12.1) Short Blades
   Level 13.0(14.3) Long Blades
 - Level 20.6 Axes

MiAr

  Code:

Level 3.5(7.5) Short Blades
 - Level 11.7(20.2) Axes
 - Level 25.6(26.2) Polearms

FoFi

  Code:

+ Level 22.7(26.7) Axes
 - Level 25.0(27) Polearms


Just because you did something doesn't mean it was actually a good idea. There are also crucial differences between spells and weapons, namely that you can in principle win with level 6-7 spells, without too much difficulty, but you are absolutely going to gimp yourself if you choose to stop using Polearms once you have a halberd at min delay, for example.

The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps

A design philosophy is a useful thing for keeping disparate people with different opinions moving overall in the same direction, but it's not a magic spell that instantly makes the game the Platonic ideal of itself.

No kidding, and this is actually good, but let's not pretend that philosophy isn't willingly ignored at times when the feature in question is deemed sufficiently interesting to warrant it. I'm pretty sure I've seen the same argument against the current iteration of traps since I started playing in around 0.13, and yet we had new traps added in 0.16, for example, and just had a thread explicitly defending shafts as being interesting enough to overlook the degenerate play they encourage.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Just because you did something doesn't mean it was actually a good idea. There are also crucial differences between spells and weapons, namely that you can in principle win with level 6-7 spells, without too much difficulty, but you are absolutely going to gimp yourself if you choose to stop using Polearms once you have a halberd at min delay, for example.

If I don't have a glaive yet, I stop training polearms, yes.
Early game is not crowded with monsters and has many corridors so I can use polearms just fine.
Late game you get Vaults with Vault Warden and without narrow corridors, open levels of Depths with monsters everywhere and in packs, Zot has draconian shifters etc. so cleaving attacks become much more useful.
So I use the best weapon for every specific situation.
I am not sure how you spend XP late game, do you think an extra point in AC or a couple of extra HP are more useful than cleaving? Or training Charms/Hexes/Necromancy does anything while you are trying to get Spectral Weapon/Animate Dead/Regeneration castable in plate armour?

Edit. MiAr game, you can see I got Axes from 0 to 11 during a single XL level because an electro battleaxe dropped and I needed crowd control, that gave me min delay for battleaxe (I had bardiche at almost min delay at this point also). Also I used lajatang at min delay despite having literally 0 skill in staves. Crosstraining is broken mechanic.

  Code:

       Halberd           |    43 |   123 |   448 |   863 |  1525 |   396 |       |       |       ||  3398
       Glaive            |       |       |       |       |       |  1565 |   664 |       |   321 ||  2550
       Bardiche          |       |       |       |       |       |       |  1217 |  1457 |  1428 ||  4102
       Battleaxe         |       |       |       |       |       |       |    13 |    66 |   252 ||   331
       Lajatang          |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   227 |  1456 ||  1683

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Short Blades   |  2  3                                                                            |  3.5
Polearms       |        2  4  6  8  9 11 12 13 15 16    17 20          23 25                      | 25.6
Axes           |                                                             11                   | 11.7

[tabstorm]

Well, assuming I'm playing a warrior type character, I almost always just go Axes in the first place unless I have a high apt in something else, because I'm lazy. You can usually count on finding a battleaxe of freezing or elec somewhere, and usually I manage to acquire an executioner's axe or good battleaxe often enough, get gifted one, or buy one through Gozag. In open areas, I can just walk back to a corridor. Fighting two enemies at once is usually okay provided I have heavy enough armor. I don't even bother going for any spells outside of translocations and rmsl any more unless I have Chei, I'm too lazy to remember to cast them and it doesn't seem to have any real effect on me living or dying late game. My spectral weapon tends to die too quickly for it to really be noticeable. On a non-speedrun I've died about two times ever in Depths and both of them were mages, so I think this strategy is good.

There's no reason to worry about open areas in Zot when the walls are diggable.

Instead of training a bunch of different weapon skills, you can just train Fighting and have better accuracy with weapons of venom or elec you find on the ground in the early game. Even 0 skill melee with these is fine.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Axes are different (they are universal, the best weapon category IMHO), I cannot argue vs ignoring other types unless you find vampiric glaive or something. I am glad we are on the same page now

Edit. I had Fighting 20 when I started training Axe, please don't tell me I needed more for accuracy

[VeryAngryFelid]

HOAr is probably even more interesting. Though again you can see I got 11 levels in Axes during a single XL and from 1 to 20 in just 3 XLs. HO's aptitude in axes is broken again

  Code:

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 |
---------------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Fighting       |  2  3  4              5  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 15       16 18 19 20 21 22 23    27 | 27.0
Axes           |           1                                     12 17 20                         | 20.6
Short Blades   |           2  4  5  7  9                                                          |  9.6
Evocations     |                       4  6  8  9 11    13    14                                  | 14.9
Long Blades    |                          5  7  9 10 12             13                            | 13.0

[Siegurt]

So here is the problem with reducing ogre m&f apt: it doesn't make the choice to use m&f any less of a no brainer, it is still always optimal to use a gc if you aren't using a shield, if you were going to use a shield, then the best one handed weapon you could find was already optimal regardless of aptitude.

The reason that this is so is that *the best weapon you can use is the primary determiner of what weapon you should be using, not your aptitude*

What this does, in effect, is simply lower non shield using ogres available xp to spend on non weapon skills, making the choice of what to spend xp on outside of weapon skill more constrained, and less flexible (assuming you want to survive)

If ogres were overpowered then this was a decent nerf. I personally dont think they were and the net result of this change for me is that i spend more time luring and more time resting (which was already a problem for ogres being low defenses, high hps, and normal regen)

[Dioneo]

I wonder how it would be if weapon aptitudes were more like resistances currently are; there is not a skill of "poison resistance" which constantly increases in tiny increments, you either have it or you don't. What if weapons were like that? Rather than "leveling" your skill with axes or whatever, you'd just be given axe proficiency at character creation which would allow you to use axes without penalty. Attack delay would be fixed for each kind of weapon and damage would scale with XL/Str/Dex or something like that.

Backgrounds would grant proficiencies, so that a fighter would be proficient in all melee and throwing weapons (since they're all about fighting) while a conjurer could only use short blades, staves and slings without penalty. This would be a good way to differentiate backgrounds, where some characters could freely choose from what the dungeon gives them, while others are more restricted, it would mitigate the tendency for all characters to converge towards the endgame and it would get rid of worrying about mindelay and such.

In addition, species would have their own proficiencies added onto the background ones, Orcs always have axe proficiency, and Merfolk can always use polearms (for example) even when playing as conjurers. Gods like Okawaru and Trog could also grant certain weapon proficiencies, and finding a skill tome would permanently give you proficiency related to its weapon type.

How stupid is that

[VeryAngryFelid]

I wonder how it would be if weapon aptitudes were more like resistances currently are; there is not a skill of "poison resistance" which constantly increases in tiny increments, you either have it or you don't. What if weapons were like that? Rather than "leveling" your skill with axes or whatever, you'd just be given axe proficiency at character creation which would allow you to use axes without penalty. Attack delay would be fixed for each kind of weapon and damage would scale with XL/Str/Dex or something like that.

Similar concept was implemented in some crawl fork (Fighting was the only factor to increase attack speed for all weapons, Str was the only factor to increase weapon damage, Dex was the only factor to increase accuracy, I don't remember what Weapon skill did, probably decreased stamina cost for attacking). It was awful, all melee characters were alike having polearm, axe, short blade, M&F and a couple of laucnhers in inventory and switching between them very often.

[Lasty]

The design philosophy can be and is ignored when it's convenient, see floor traps

A design philosophy is a useful thing for keeping disparate people with different opinions moving overall in the same direction, but it's not a magic spell that instantly makes the game the Platonic ideal of itself.

No kidding, and this is actually good, but let's not pretend that philosophy isn't willingly ignored at times when the feature in question is deemed sufficiently interesting to warrant it. I'm pretty sure I've seen the same argument against the current iteration of traps since I started playing in around 0.13, and yet we had new traps added in 0.16, for example, and just had a thread explicitly defending shafts as being interesting enough to overlook the degenerate play they encourage.

Sure, sometimes individual contributors have done things that, at least arguably, violate the design philosophy, but overall it isn't ignored and it's used as a guidepost to help keep us moving in the right direction. Regarding shafts specifically, I believe the defense was of the effect "being shafted" rather than the specific implementation "hidden shaft trap tied to a specific tile". As far as I know, the dev team as a group understands that there are problems with hidde traps being tied to specific tiles, even if the trap effects are desirable.

[xXxMemekMaestro69xXx]

If ogres were overpowered then this was a decent nerf

They were not. Ogres and Trolls are balanced by the fact that they can only wear robes, TLA and dragon armors that they can only mostly get in either Vaults, Depths, and Swamp. along with very few aux slots and they can't even wear helms. Hats are rarer than Helms despite giving 1 AC less and 0 AC while unenchanted.

Early game especially Lair are quite difficult for Ogres. Trolls have ridiculous hp regen to last on encounters and claws along with very good attack delay to offset its weakness but they can still get wrecked as fast as they regenerate if their positioning are poor. Nagas have the ability to wear armor of all kinds, spit poison for those gorillion of non-poison resistant monsters in Dungeon and constriction for melee in Lair but their very slow movement speed all throughout the game balances that. Ogres have... nothing except large clubs. If they found some large rocks or get a ton early from worshiping Okawaru/Trog, then great but RNG and God worshiping is not always like that so it's invalid to assume that an Ogre is always going to have large rocks.

b-but large clubs drop like hotcakes

That is unfortunately not enough for Ogres to still be the weakest among the 3 large races considering the above statement.

[Hellmonk]

Well considering that ogres are way better than nagas and that trolls are objectively overpowered I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Sar]

Ogres are only better than Nagas if you consider earlygame to be important, which makes zero sense.

[xXxMemekMaestro69xXx]

Well considering that ogres are way better than nagas

Your inability to play Nagas does not count here. Ogres can compete with them and be superior to them only during early game but since Naga apts on both melee/magic schools are decent as well as their AC that could only go higher as their aux slots are so many + more freedom on which body armour/headgear to wear + [my previous post] Nagas always completely outclass Ogres.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Pure melee Ogre is much easier than any Naga. +3 aptitudes in fighting/m&f are crazy powerful. I currently have an Ogre with 196 HP and GSC at min delay at XL 17 (before getting any runes). Defenses are not important yet since you can run away from everything unlike Naga.

[archaeo]

Note to mods: I know you don't like it when somebody just posts a picture w/o text but this expresses my opinion better than any words ever could.

Is this a thing?