Make charms into permanent buffs


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Wednesday, 2nd November 2016, 17:42

Make charms into permanent buffs

Please at least read the following section on how this would affect the game. I highly doubt this will get passed but I think there's potential for something new and interesting, so please give this a chance and let me hear your thoughts.

How this would affect the game

The good:
- Solves many, many tedium problems while creating very few, if any.
- Is balanced so as not to allow players to break the game using potions of brilliance + wizardry.
- New charms can be added without giving the devs a massive headache when they think about the game's design philosophy.

The bad:
- Not intuitive with respect to other spell schools. However, it isn't as though other spells have never been changed. The player simply has to relearn a few things as with spells like Ozo's after the nerf.
- While certainly not a hairpullingly large amount of work, requires a significant overhaul that could easily produce quite a few bugs.
- Could have a lot of unseen corner cases (I already tried to either cover or reduce the possibility of quite a few, but who knows what’s left).
- Casting noise solution is slapped on. Suggestions would be welcome.

The proposition

Charms buffs should be made permanent. I suggest something similar to how RMsl and DMsl work but with a few changes. The specifics are below.

Affected charms:
- Will be charms that are direct buffs (not spectral weapon or battlesphere) and can be properly converted (not ddoor or swiftness). Other charms are unchanged.
- Are active as soon as they are cast.
- Have infinite duration. Cases like Ozo's and Song of Slaying with detrimental effects outside of combat are addressed below.
- Can be cast normally, but are dormant (grey text) unless the spell is cast at a white-colored failure rate that is also at or below a certain threshold (somewhere from 10% down to 4%). Sif's miscast protection can be used to meet the first requirement. If these conditions are for some reason not met while the spell is already active, it immediately becomes dormant, regardless of whether or not another casting was attempted.
- Can be ended by an action command similarly to the Flight effect.
- Have twice their MP cost subtracted from the player's maximum MP. This happens even while dormant. The actual MP cost of the spell is taken first, so it is possible for a player at max MP to cast a charms spell and stay at max MP.
- Are automatically ended if the spell is forgotten.

In addition:
- Any countdowns attached to affected charms cannot be circumvented by ending the effect and recasting the spell. Nor can they be reduced by causing the charm to go dormant (such by equipping heavy armor or removing a ring of wizardry). The countdown stays and in addition only decrements while the spell is casted and active.
- Whenever an affected charm is ended by the player, the player's max MP is restored and the player receives half of the MP from that charm, back, intact (the other half is taken as the casting cost and is lost). For example, casting Infusion takes away 2 max MP. Ending infusion restores 2 max MP and 1 actual MP. Players may recover a sizable portion of MP simply by continuously ending charm effects mid-fight, but whether or not that is a good idea is the choice of the player.
- Casting noise is made when the spell is cast but not while the charm is active (except for Song of Slaying and Ring of Flames). This overall buffs Charms which I think it certainly needs after the Haste removal.
- Getting hit with an antimagic attack that would reduce MP below 0 immediately makes all charms go dormant, as does wielding an antimagic branded weapon or being silenced (via the Silence spell or an effect like Mennas’ Silence aura). They are restored upon reaching full MP again or when no longer silenced. Eyes of Draining, Ghost Moths, and Mana Vipers suddenly got a lot more interesting to the avid charms user.
- Spirit Shield works normally, using the player’s current max MP. There is no dormancy caused by MP hitting 0 as the result of Spirit Shield activating.

Changes to specific charms

L1
Infusion - Permanent.

L2
Repel Missiles - As it is currently, but the effect decreases in effectiveness as it blocks attacks and increases back overtime. This is accompanied by color changes (purple -> blue -> green -> grey). If out of sight of an enemy for a brief period (100 auts), RMsl comes back all at once.
Shroud of Golubria - Permanent. If destroyed, the shroud is restored automatically over time (100 auts?).
Song of Slaying - The song automatically starts at the first sight of an enemy. If there is a monster still in sight when the effect ends, the player must manually start singing again (action command "Start Singing" or just "Sing"). Song of Slaying's ending conditions are otherwise unchanged from the current spell.
Swiftness - Unchanged. Permanent swiftness would be absolutely busted anyway.

L3
Ozocubu's Armour - Reduced movement penalty is only active while an enemy is in LoS and player speed is restored after 100 auts out of combat. Functions like icemail when hit by a fire attack. This one is tricky and definitely isn't finished.
Regeneration - Permanent. Since this is a flat bonus, make L4 or L5.
Spectral Weapon - Unchanged. This is a summon so any problems with it are outside of the purview of this thread.

L5
Iskenderun's Battlesphere - As Spectral Weapon.
Excruciating Wounds - Permanent and to reduce tediousness, now stays between weapon changes. To reduce tediousness even further, gets a sizable buff in that any enemy that resists the effect (via rN+ or the like) is attacked with the weapon’s original brand, as though the spell had not been cast at all. Immediately turns off Warp Weapon and vice-versa.
(Kiku gets shafted somewhat but the existence of this spell already diminishes the usefulness of his 6* gift now so this isn’t really an issue.)
Warp Weapon – As Excruciating Wounds, although the chance of the player having this spell while worshipping Lucy is far less, as is the possibility of the player attacking a distortion immune enemy (yay blink frogs).

L6
Deflect Missiles - As Repel Missiles.
Haste - RIP Haste. Your gamebreaking effect will be missed.

L7
Ring of Flames - Permanent? I do not know whether or not the player would want this to be cast nearly every fight as I have never used it. It would be otherwise unchanged.

L8
Death's Door - Unchanged. This spell generally isn't repeatedly cast. In the case that it is, chances are the situation is interesting enough that it can hardly be described as tedious.

For this message the author PowerOfKaishin has received thanks: 3
Cimanyd, Seven Deadly Sins, VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8657

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 2nd November 2016, 23:51

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

This has been proposed dozens of times. What makes your reiteration so different from the last 50 that it deserves more of a "chance" than them?
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1750

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:08

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

PowerOfKaishin wrote:L8
Death's Door - Unchanged. This spell generally isn't repeatedly cast. In the case that it is, chances are the situation is interesting enough that it can hardly be described as tedious.
A lot of people do repeatedly cast Death's Door(whether it's a good idea or not) because they hate malmutate
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4290

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:14

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

Shard1697 wrote:A lot of people do repeatedly cast Death's Door(whether it's a good idea or not) because they hate malmutate

Do you mean Necromutation or am I missing something?
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1750

Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 00:18

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

oh, I do. I'm sick as hell is my excuse
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1785

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 01:22

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

PowerOfKaishin wrote:Could have a lot of unseen corner cases (I already tried to either cover or reduce the possibility of quite a few, but who knows what’s left).

Have twice their MP cost subtracted from the player's maximum MP. This happens even while dormant. The actual MP cost of the spell is taken first, so it is possible for a player at max MP to cast a charms spell and stay at max MP.

This is the main corner case that I see, and is indeed the problem with all of the permacharm proposals I've seen. Right now, if you're casting charms, you're likely also in a position to cast lots of other spells, since you'll be wearing lighter amor and be training spell schools/spellcasting. But with these permacharms, you're far better off if the only spells you cast are charms, and if your main way of killing enemies consumes MP, you're likely to eschew using charms at all because of how they limit your MP pool. It's probably the most "anti-caster" solution you could find for these spells, and while nobody's ridden in on that hobby horse in a bit, it would come roaring back in the aftermath, one imagines.

In any case, it's also not an idea that has gotten much purchase with devs, though you've done a good job to at least flesh out the proposal. As duvessa noted, it's a concept that has been floated many times since I joined the Tavern, and it's not one I think is likely to find its way into the game. Not that I have any say in the matter, but still.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 03:06

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

archaeo wrote:
PowerOfKaishin wrote:Could have a lot of unseen corner cases (I already tried to either cover or reduce the possibility of quite a few, but who knows what’s left).

Have twice their MP cost subtracted from the player's maximum MP. This happens even while dormant. The actual MP cost of the spell is taken first, so it is possible for a player at max MP to cast a charms spell and stay at max MP.

This is the main corner case that I see, and is indeed the problem with all of the permacharm proposals I've seen. Right now, if you're casting charms, you're likely also in a position to cast lots of other spells, since you'll be wearing lighter amor and be training spell schools/spellcasting. But with these permacharms, you're far better off if the only spells you cast are charms, and if your main way of killing enemies consumes MP, you're likely to eschew using charms at all because of how they limit your MP pool. It's probably the most "anti-caster" solution you could find for these spells, and while nobody's ridden in on that hobby horse in a bit, it would come roaring back in the aftermath, one imagines.

In any case, it's also not an idea that has gotten much purchase with devs, though you've done a good job to at least flesh out the proposal. As duvessa noted, it's a concept that has been floated many times since I joined the Tavern, and it's not one I think is likely to find its way into the game. Not that I have any say in the matter, but still.


The thing is, in order for a melee class to get their free boosts, they would have to put exp into magic.
Your implication is that wizards with these spells will suddenly be more inclined to use melee over magic or, more specifically, to forgo charms entirely. The thing is, you're looking at the very earliest these spells become available: using them right at the getgo.

First off, let's talk about the most affected class: the Skald. The Skald is the class that gets most of the early level charms in their starting book, IIRC. They'd have to pick a single charm to use out of their five (?). If you're sadistic, you'll probably mention how that gives them a meaningful choice between any one of the buffs and in skilling, since more spellcasting will make multiple buffs available. The rest of us recognize that Skald may be too weak for this to be acceptable. If this really is the case, simply give that class a ring of magical power. They can certainly do a lot with it.

This proposition buffs that ring immensely for users with access to charms and the ability to cast them. It's now competing for a slot, and not only that, but the user is heavily discouraged from removing it. This sounds like a really good thing.

Now for the other magic classes, lemme run some numbers.

Highest Skill = max(Spellcasting, Invocations/2, Evocations/2)
MP = Scale*(min(XL, 23) + Highest Skill + min(8, Highest Skill, XL)/2) + Species Modifier

If this formula is correct, the player:
- Gets 1 MP every level up to 23
- Gets 1 MP for every level in Spellcasting
- Gets an amount of MP equal to the lower of Spellcasting/2 and XL/2, capped at 4

A level 1 character with 2 (?) Spellcasting has 3 MP at base. Races that are magically inclined that don't start with the necessary 2 Spellcasting all have +MP starting, to my knowledge.
In any case, Infusion takes a huge cut out of this (2 MP base) which is important because Infusion requires additional MP as part of its effect. Maybe Infusion should work as it does now, but simply be toggleable instead of temporary? It already takes away from MP so at this point it would just be more of a convenience.

A level 2 character with 2 Spellcasting has 5 MP at base.
If you're casting Song of Slaying (4 MP), you're going to be attacking, not casting more magic. There's something to be said for using that 1 MP for Infusion if Infusion is made permanent for free (essentially), but it's not exactly a deal-breaker without it.

The other level 2 spells that are changed are RMsl and Shroud. Here's where the beauty of the proposal comes in. Melee characters that don't use much magic will always want these and they'll have the MP for them too, but they have to put points into magical skills in order to get the required spell failure rates needed for them to work. There's the choice.
Magically inclined characters easily can get these going and at the end of the day can simply train more Spellcasting for the needed MP. 5 levels of Spellcasting is 5 MP. Getting 10 is asking a lot, however, so they have to be selective.
But, a level 5 character with 5 spellcasting has 12 MP. That gets reduced to 8 with RMsl. That doesn't sound that bad for a wizard. Sure, it's not as good as having a full 12 MP and RMsl, but that class will do fine.

Slotless regeneration isn't OP, but it is extremely handy. If the player wants that as a Skald or a Necromancer (or another class that happens upon a book with Regen), they can use some of their precious exp training Spellcasting more to suit their casting needs in addition to adding regen to themselves.

The thing is, this really isn't a huge drain. MP isn't a terribly precious resource after the first few levels and eventually ceases to be a problem entirely. So what you have is a level progression that lets you add another buff every 7 or 8 levels, with the ability to accelerate this progression by training Spellcasting.

Sure, they'll be free buffs at extremely high levels, but they're already free buffs now so long as you cast all of them before each fight. Optimal play dictates moving slowly and casting them all before each fight anyway, so this is an improvement.
The only thing that changes is that you're more prepared for surprises, but considering optimal play deals with these only very rarely, this isn't a huge buff.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 463

Joined: Monday, 20th July 2015, 04:01

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 03:10

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

duvessa wrote:This has been proposed dozens of times. What makes your reiteration so different from the last 50 that it deserves more of a "chance" than them?


I need help, Duvy. I've narrowed down the response to this to 3 choices. Pick one of them for me why don't you?

1. I haven't seen any other proposals for this. Maybe the idea has been tossed around a few times but I haven't seen anything big. Could you link me?
2. Because my proposal is written to align with the crawl design philosophy. It takes away a lot of tedium that the other proposals may have missed.
3. Why don't you read and find out?
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1785

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 04:44

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs


For this message the author archaeo has received thanks:
duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8657

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 04:50

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

Okay, I clearly did not get my point across, so I'll try again.
PowerOfKaishin wrote:Please at least read the following section on how this would affect the game. I highly doubt this will get passed but I think there's potential for something new and interesting, so please give this a chance and let me hear your thoughts.
Your post opens with a claim that you and your ideas are going to be treated unfairly. Modulating the tone with "please" does nothing to change the underlying content. It sounds like the "devs don't listen to players!" whining that shows up after every controversial change to the game, except it's actually worse because the thing you're complaining about hasn't even happened yet. Opening your proposal with an attack on the reader is not a great way to convince them to "give it a chance".

As for the actual proposal, I did read it. It's basically the same as the last charms reform post, except you used more letters to describe it, and instead of trying to account for spell success with an unusably bad random failure mechanic, you try to account for spell success with an equally bad binary success breakpoint. If you want to see even more functionally identical charms reform proposals, it should be easy to find them with a search engine.
As far as aligning with the Crawl design philosophy, I don't believe that. You're suggesting adding something far more complicated than the entire current spell system, as a subset of the spell system.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 714

Joined: Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 11:04

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 12:08

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

The sheer number of "make Charms permanent" propositions suggest that maybe lots of people want Charms permanent, even if it would make them 'unbalanced' a bit.
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

For this message the author kuniqs has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 714

Joined: Saturday, 5th December 2015, 06:56

Post Thursday, 3rd November 2016, 12:15

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

I don't like the idea of making charms permanent, personally. Feels like bad design, cramming a strategic advantage (such as that afforded by gear) into the spell system, which is specifically designed for tactical usage.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 714

Joined: Tuesday, 29th November 2011, 11:04

Post Friday, 4th November 2016, 10:25

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

Fuck design.

Make Crawl fun again.
"Damned, damned be the legions of the damned..."

For this message the author kuniqs has received thanks:
pedritolo

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1601

Joined: Sunday, 14th July 2013, 16:36

Post Friday, 4th November 2016, 10:50

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

lethediver wrote:I don't like the idea of making charms permanent, personally. Feels like bad design, cramming a strategic advantage (such as that afforded by gear) into the spell system, which is specifically designed for tactical usage.

I know people are trying to shift the design in that direction, but it looks to me like the spell system was designed for unlimited use magical effects.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1609

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Friday, 4th November 2016, 11:16

Re: Make charms into permanent buffs

Closing this, since as noted above it's another duplication of multiple recent (and not-so-recent) discussions.

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Magipi, radzia and 8 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.