Rename Medium Shields

[Quazifuji]

It's awkward that there's a category of item ("shields") that is also the name of a specific item in that category ("shields"). It makes it awkward to refer to the specific item, since depending on the context sometimes you have to add an adjective to clarify. For example, when giving advice, statements like "I'd recommend using a shield" or "I don't think a shield would be worth the skill investment" are potentially ambiguous.

I'd say change the name of the item to make things easier. Offhand, I'd suggest "kite shield" since that's what the tile looks like.

[WingedEspeon]

Alternatively rename shield to medium shield and rename buckler to small shield.

[duvessa]

renames:
buckler -> buckler
shield -> kite shield
large shield -> removed shield

[Shard1697]

don't remove large shields I need them for my ants

I remember there was murmurs of changing shields to "targes", but I am way more in favor of making them kite shields.

[Rast]

Yes, let's give all three shield types obscure names so that nobody except a military historian will know which is which without checking the stats ingame.

[Brannock]

Yes, let's give all three shield types obscure names so that nobody except a military historian will know which is which without checking the stats ingame.

Erudition is a good quality to instill.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes, let's give all three shield types obscure names so that nobody except a military historian will know which is which without checking the stats ingame.

+1
I had hard time looking for fub.. whatever. It was much better as great sling as I could just search for "great sling" instead of "sling" and checking if there are some "non-hunting" slings there.

[Quazifuji]

For flavorful names, I'd go with "tower shields" for large shields (I considered suggesting this in the OP but decided to just stick to one topic).

"Small Shields", "Medium Shields", and "Large Shields" would work, although for every other type of equipment the game has flavorful names so it's not exactly unprecedented to do something similar with shields. At least if you're familiar with the terms the order is pretty obvious, and even if you're not it's not hard to figure out that a tower shield is big. Much easier than figuring out Bardiche > Glaive > Halberd or Broad Axe > War Axe, for example, at least in my opinion.

Also, if you play in tiles, then the pictures make it very easy to tell which ones are bigger.

So overall, "Buckler", "Kite Shield", "Tower Shield" is my personal vote, but I wouldn't be too bothered by just "Small", "Medium", and "Large". I think either of those options is better than mixing the two, but anything where "shield" gets a real name is an improvement.

[ololoev]

large shield -> removed shield

large shield -> door

[Shtopit]

large shield -> removed shield

large shield -> door

The door glows purple and changes!

[Lasty]

Does this argument also apply to maces and flails, or is the difference between maces, flails, and Maces & Flails enough distinction?

[ArcaneNH]

Does this argument also apply to maces and flails, or is the difference between maces, flails, and Maces & Flails enough distinction?

I think it's less of an issue with Maces & Flails because those are the lowest level, while the kite shield is in the middle. I would say more but don't want to pull this thread too far off track.

[Quazifuji]

Now that I think of it, it's kind of silly that a battle axe is a bigger weapon than a war axe.

Does this argument also apply to maces and flails, or is the difference between maces, flails, and Maces & Flails enough distinction?

In theory I think it does, but in practice it's rarely been a problem for me, while the issue with "shields" has come up a lot when trying to discuss defensive equipment.

[Shtopit]

To be fair, DCSS nomenclature follows some RPG conventions that have nothing to do with reality. So the longsword here isn't a longsword IRL, and there was no difference between war axe and battle axe, since the naming was only used to distinguish these axes meant for combat from those meant for wood and such. With axes I'd just go with hatchet, axe, war axe, two handed axe, executioner's axe, because this way the progression is easier to learn. The tiles help a lot here however.

Having a medium shield looks like the simplest solution. Of course, the question is whether the problem exists; it's actually the only category where I haven't had any such problems while learning the game. I don't think it's worth go looking for historic names, they would just make the meaning opaque and defy the purpose of a name change. Also, cognitive load.

[edgefigaro]

Add way more shields!

Smaller Shield
Buckler
Targe
Small Shield
Shield
Medium Shield
Normal Shield
Kite Shield
Big Shield
Large Shield
Bigger Shield
Biggest Shield
Tower Shield
Biggerest Shield

[Lasty]

There's no way we'd accept that patch. Not without triple shields.

[Brannock]

I don't think it's worth go looking for historic names, they would just make the meaning opaque and defy the purpose of a name change. Also, cognitive load.

Is it cognitive load to have a "boggart" instead of a "monster replicator"?

[DracheReborn]

Does this argument also apply to maces and flails, or is the difference between maces, flails, and Maces & Flails enough distinction?

IMO it has less of the ambiguity that Quazifuji identifies because people almost always say "M&F" when they mean the skill.

Of course personally I usually say "regular shield" to refer to the item so I guess the proposal just formalises this.

[Siegurt]

Add way more shields!

Smallerest Shield
Buckler
Targe
Small Shield
Shield
Medium Shield
Normal Shield
Kite Shield
Double Shield
Large Shield
Bigger Shield
Triple Shield
Tower Shield
Quadruple Shield
Portable Wall

Ftfy

[Shtopit]

I don't think it's worth go looking for historic names, they would just make the meaning opaque and defy the purpose of a name change. Also, cognitive load.

Is it cognitive load to have a "boggart" instead of a "monster replicator"?

In this game apparently not, because, otherwise, mummies would be called Cursodeath and the Enchantress would be called Killme4loot. But I wouldn't call a medium shield a targe or hoplon any more than I'd call a longsword an arming sword or a falchion a machaira or seax.

[Shard1697]

Falchion is already a historically accurate name

[Quazifuji]

Of course personally I usually say "regular shield" to refer to the item so I guess the proposal just formalises this.

That's pretty much the idea, yeah. It's easy enough to say "regular shield" or "medium shield" when I'm trying to refer to the item, but overall it just seems like it would be nice for the item to have its own name so that it can be completely clear and official that "shield" refers to the category and not the individual item. It's not a necessary change, just one where I don't see the downside.

To be fair, DCSS nomenclature follows some RPG conventions that have nothing to do with reality.

This is true, but not necessarily a bad thing, since I suspect the average DCSS player is far more familiar with RPG weapon terminology than actual authentic medieval weapon terminology. This is also why the "military historian" argument is silly. I don't know about bucklers, kite shields, and tower shields because I've studied medieval war equipment, I know about them because I've played a lot of RPGs, and I imagine that's a pretty common trait among DCSS players.

That's not to say that we should just assume all players have extensive fantasy RPG experience, just that these terms aren't nearly as esoteric among DCSS's primary audience as some people seem to think they are.

[Shtopit]

Another problem is DCSS's not anglophone audience. At least for weapons, I don't think it's worth making everybody's life difficult by giving unusual names to usual items. Rare items are a different story.

I have seen kite shields proposed as medium shield, but kite shields were often huge, so the clarity of the term depends on what games you have played or which books you have read.

Falchion is already a historically accurate name

As is shield, after all.

[Shard1697]

Yes. Personally I don't think it's much of a problem for the normal sized shields to be called "shields", and I doubt anyone has been seriously confused by it. I like kite shield/tower shield as names, however.

[zackoid]

When I was a new player, I recall there being some confusion between a shield, the shield skill and shield value (SH) when reading the wiki. That might have been due to bad links, but it was there.

I also recall not being sure if ctrl-f'in for 'mace' in-game was only showing maces because they were the only m&fs to generate or because it didn't search for the whole class.

For both it'd be nice to easily know if you are searching for the class or the specific item, like long blade vs. long sword.