New hosted branch: Basajaun species and High Elf removal

[gammafunk]

Again thanks to johnstein, there's another experimental branch hosted on cbro. This branch removes High Elves, and adds a new species, Basajaun (plural Basajaunak, species abbreviation: Ba). Details described in this commit. The justifications for High Elf removal are described in this commit.

Some current thoughts Ba based on dev discussion:

1. An overriding idea is that it'd be nice to have a giant/large species that is relatively normal. Tr/Ce/Na/Og all have dramatic differences aside from their size (Og having crazy melee aptitudes).

2. A giant species with some of the attendant benefits (HP) and detriments (armour slots, poor evasion) where you could use any kind of magic extensively would be fun. Doing this with Og and Tr is possible, but not fun.

3. This species will ultimately have some similarity to Og later on, and in terms of using magic well with generous HP and defensive limitations, Dr.

4. It has been brought up that perhaps a subtle mutation could help give them a bit of added differentiation. This would be in the spirit of Ha, where innate rMut doesn't exactly matter but is a nice bonus. However no particular mutation stands out. Placid Magic has been mentioned, but I don't like spellpower reductions.[/list]

Regardless of what happens to Basajaunak, High Elves are almost certain to be removed, so enjoy that gorgeous blonde hair while it lasts!

[Sprucery]

So, has dpeg already started on "Whisper ‘Farewell’ when you leave, Celeborn"?

[minmay]

certified elf-licker here. just want to let you know that as long as deep elves are still in the game, no flavour has been lost

[duvessa]

i hope somebody answers that phone because i called it

[gammafunk]

Yet another lie of the kind notorious deep elf lickers are known to spread. I removed the gorgeous, golden elf hair tile myself, and I wept for hours afterwards.

[goodcoolguy]

Should consider removing Ogre too if this sticks.

[Shtopit]

While he was a High Elf, Celeborn (=silver tall one) had no golden hair, I think he is the only individual elf who was explicitly said to have silvery hair, a common trait of the Teleri. Individuals with golden hair were Glorfindel and some of the descendants of Finwe and Indis (among which Galadriel), and generally many of Vanya (=fair) descent.

Anyway, good riddance, they didn't offer anything special. Will the deep elves be renamed to elves?

[BabyRage]

Just give the blonde hair to DE - problem solved.

[Leszczynek]

So, two questions.

1) What's the decisive difference between Ba and the long gone OM? Why is the former proposed as new species if the latter was removed from the game?
2) Is it a current development goal to take something obscure from every lesser known mythology around the world?

[dpeg]

1) What's the decisive difference between Ba and the long gone OM? Why is the former proposed as new species if the latter was removed from the game?

Stone Soup is now officially old enough that developers re-invent content removed by previous generations.

2) Is it a current development goal to take something obscure from every lesser known mythology around the world?

Yes. "Current" is misleading, though.

[DracheReborn]

I think HE removal should be decoupled from Ba introduction. Doing it this way might be easier from the implementation perspective, but it makes one wonder whether Ba are making it only by virtue of being more interesting than HE, which is not a high bar.

Idea for a Ba gimmick - can assume Tree form at will, with duration similar to !lig. Fits their lore, could be tempting early as quick fix defense, should be the source of many hilarious deaths - er, I mean, teaching moments.

[Shtopit]

Just give the blonde hair to DE - problem solved.

Make it an effect of scrolls of random uselessness.

Your hair turns golden!

(this sounds even more ridiculous because of DBZ)

[dpeg]

Idea for a Ba gimmick - can assume Tree form at will, with duration similar to !lig.

This is such a cute idea! I have no idea if it has been discussed (and discarded) but I'll relay it to the gammafunk.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Is it possible to add Deformed Body mutation and ability to wear normal armour for Ba (like for Ce/Na)?
I eagerly started playing BaCj hoping to cast spells in heavy armour (something like HO in plate armour but with less AC and more spells) but found that I feel like I am DE who trains more Fighting and less Dodging and probably will abandon all spells if lucky to find GDA because I still can use giant club with -1 aptitude and can have nice AC this way. Too similar to existing Og IMHO. With my proposed changes it will have harder late game and more options before that.

[Arrhythmia]

i'd like to just say that if you check out the wikipedia page for basajaun there is TOTALLY a dece nipple on it, highly recommended.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Idea for a Ba gimmick - can assume Tree form at will, with duration similar to !lig.

This is such a cute idea! I have no idea if it has been discussed (and discarded) but I'll relay it to the gammafunk.

CA fork had it for VS, it was quite unusual (and OP on early floors) indeed. VS couldn't wear any body armour to compensate.

[Elitist]

Hey, why are High Elves being removed in exchange for Ogre Mage? High Elves are special in that they can engage in all three primary forms of combat (Melee/Ranged/Magic) easily, and their selection of tools are narrow enough to make them as interesting in addition to -10% HP making them require a degree of finesse that's implied in their flavor text. They are the textbook hybrids, and riposte has finally put them into a position where they're comfortable with easing into all three if needed. Remove Ogre instead, they lose their niche to Basajaun in exchange for a small loss of HP, and work Hill Giants (HG) as the melee weapon big race.

[Sar]

To be honest, I actually think HE have a pretty interesting niche of being really cool on paper and really terrible in practice.

[Arrhythmia]

Hey, why are High Elves being removed in exchange for Ogre Mage? High Elves are special in that they can engage in all three primary forms of combat (Melee/Ranged/Magic) easily, and their selection of tools are narrow enough to make them as interesting in addition to -10% HP making them require a degree of finesse that's implied in their flavor text. They are the textbook hybrids, and riposte has finally put them into a position where they're comfortable with easing into all three if needed.

Oh! You mean just like Humans?

[Elitist]

Hey, why are High Elves being removed in exchange for Ogre Mage? High Elves are special in that they can engage in all three primary forms of combat (Melee/Ranged/Magic) easily, and their selection of tools are narrow enough to make them as interesting in addition to -10% HP making them require a degree of finesse that's implied in their flavor text. They are the textbook hybrids, and riposte has finally put them into a position where they're comfortable with easing into all three if needed.

Oh! You mean just like Humans?

No, you banana! Humans aren't good at anything at all and only have better experience level gain going for them. High Elves are good at like 4 things. Don't remove them because you guys want Ogre Mage.

[chequers]

Humans are average to pretty good at everything.

[Elitist]

Humans are average to pretty good at everything.

Disagree. SOURCE: Apts.

[Hellmonk]

+0 is a pretty good apt.

[duvessa]

Almost every human aptitude is above average, and every background in the game is better as a human than as a high elf. What more do you want?

[Sar]

Flowing golden hair?

[Shtopit]

To be honest, I actually think HE have a pretty interesting niche of being really cool on paper and really terrible in practice.

Yes, they are the kind of thing that promises a lot of awesome and is actually built in such a way as not to make it doable during play for a standard player. The very big hit on XP and limited HP don't work well together if you are, like me, an eternal beginner.

There's also the fact that they seemed to be a skald race, a class that I don't really get, since it attempts to be a fighter (a class with mostly passive bonuses) by using active abilities to make up for low strength and light armour.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

people talk about elves and dwarves and halflings as if humans can't have albinism or beards or midgets

make up for low strength and light armour.

high elves have average armor apt and 7 base strength

[Elitist]

Almost every human aptitude is above average, and every background in the game is better as a human than as a high elf. What more do you want?

You're right. We shouldn't remove High Elves, then.

[Arrhythmia]

Almost every human aptitude is above average, and every background in the game is better as a human than as a high elf. What more do you want?

You're right. We shouldn't remove High Elves, then.

Two compelling reasons to keep Hu in instead of HE:

1. We are humans, not elves (modulo minmay)
2. There are way more human uniques than high elf uniques, and the two high elf uniques there are could very plausibly become deep elves instead.

[duvessa]

We already are deep elves ffs...

[MRPANTS]

I actually like the idea of replacing Og with Hill Giant as a player race (with buffed stats), but keeping Basajaun in place of HE means we've basically gone in a circle and went back to OM. Unless Basajaun gets some unique buffs during development (Fur giving a build in cold resist, some unique "bond with nature" gimmick), it's a fairly generic caster char. I get that ideas get recycled (Gr is kinda like MD when you think about it) but Basajaun needs a spark of creativity to make it stand out.

[Elitist]

I actually like the idea of replacing Og with Hill Giant as a player race (with buffed stats), but keeping Basajaun in place of HE means we've basically gone in a circle and went back to OM. Unless Basajaun gets some unique buffs during development (Fur giving a build in cold resist, some unique "bond with nature" gimmick), it's a fairly generic caster char. I get that ideas get recycled (Gr is kinda like MD when you think about it) but Basajaun needs a spark of creativity to make it stand out.

That's what I'm saying. An Ogre who's focused on the only thing its good at; smashing things with its club. Surely we could make something the large weapon fighter of the bunch.

Basajuan doesn't even fill the niche HE is leaving, but hey, I'm all for varied play between similar themes. Large caster sounds fun, even if being large isn't all that great when you think about it.

Two compelling reasons to keep Hu in instead of HE:

1. We are humans, not elves (modulo minmay)
2. There are way more human uniques than high elf uniques, and the two high elf uniques there are could very plausibly become deep elves instead.

I'm not asking to remove Hu. I'm asking to remove Ogre. This is the Ogre everyone has wanted since OM was removed. Don't take it out on HE, look at the large-ish races (Na/Ce/Og/Tr) and pick from them.

[MRPANTS]

Yeah, Og has basically been an inferior version of Troll forever. An HG who had more HP, pathetic magic abilities, and a throw enemy ability at lvl 15 would be cool. Basajaun implemented properly would allow a better version of Og to live on for people who still want to use them.

[duvessa]

Ba isn't better than Og.

Og is a worse version of Tr though, yes. They both consist entirely of no-brainer weapon choice + high melee damage + large + huge hp. The difference is that Og has higher skills, whereas Tr has a bunch of early-game buffs thrown on it (extra AC, claws 3, regen) and wears a shield sometimes. This isn't interesting differentiation, which is why I don't think it's radical to have neither Og nor Ba in the game.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Ba isn't better than Og.

Og is a worse version of Tr though, yes. They both consist entirely of no-brainer weapon choice + high melee damage + large + huge hp. The difference is that Og has higher skills, whereas Tr has a bunch of early-game buffs thrown on it (extra AC, claws 3, regen) and wears a shield sometimes. This isn't interesting differentiation, which is why I don't think it's radical to have neither Og nor Ba in the game.

You compare species to each other assuming they do their best trying to win (i.e. start as Be or join Be as soon as you find the altar), I am talking about character role. Ba is unique, it allows to spam spells while having nice HP and bad AC/EV. I spectated a player who had Poisonous Cloud, Orb of Destruction and Lightning Bolt on Lair 6 with defenses like AC 19, EV 8, it is nowhere close/inferior to Og/Tr.

[lethediver]

I think this race is too generic as is. If they're implemented pls get rid of Ogres since their niche as large casters will have been completely subsumed.

[shnurlf]

Idea for a Ba gimmick - can assume Tree form at will, with duration similar to !lig.

This is such a cute idea! I have no idea if it has been discussed (and discarded) but I'll relay it to the gammafunk.

I, for one, think this is also a wonderful idea and would definitely make it so that I'd play Ba!

[dpeg]

shnurlf: I mentioned it on ##crawl-dev, but the reaction was very skeptical. Obviously, tree form is extremely strong early on. So the question is if one thinks a reasonable cost (or drawback) can be invented... and if it is worth pondering about it. I absolutely think so, both for flavour and for gameplay. Clearly, the costs for typical abilities (such as bat form), i.e. some MP and hunger (!), wouldn't cut it. Here are some crude ideas for what might work better:

• Ability refuels on xp, like some of the evokers. For example, could make it available roughly once per XL. Still strong, but now seriously limited.
• Tree form costs (temporary) stat drain. That's another, perhaps more visible, xp tax. Makes sense thematically, I think.
• Ability can only be used once on a level. This is pretty artificial, but could still be justified: "You have already set root in this area."

We need good ideas, and public pressure to [del]force[/del]convince gammafunk that tree-less Basajaun is woefully incomplete.

[shnurlf]

dpeg: I'll think about potential ways to balance it and get back to you. The ones you mentioned already seem to be going in the right direction.

[Psieye]

So the question is if one thinks a reasonable cost (or drawback) can be invented... Clearly, the costs for typical abilities (such as bat form), i.e. some MP and hunger (!), wouldn't cut it.

"Taking damage in Ba Treeform rots maxHP."

[lethediver]

Make it cost 1 maxMP

[DracheReborn]

We need good ideas, and public pressure to [del]force[/del]convince gammafunk that tree-less Basajaun is woefully incomplete.

Wait, that actually works? *starts collecting pitchforks and torches*

Well actually, Ba's treeform doesn't have to be the same as lig. The interesting part after all is the can't move bit. Wasn't there an idea floating around of a "caster" ability to become rooted in exchange for greater magical power? So what if Ba can root themselves, getting increased HP and MP regen ("power flows to you through the earth"), and possibly other benefits (increased stats?) which are scaled by XL. That might fit their blaster niche better.

[goodcoolguy]

Starting with treeform available makes it essentially impossible to die to d:1 or d:2 monsters, so you probably don't want that. Past that stage there aren't a lot of times that treeform makes a decisive difference, but it's powerful when it does. I rarely run out of the potions and I use them more than most people from what I can tell. Unless you plan to also remove the potions, which would be a reasonable thing to do, I don't think you're going to find a good way to do it as species ability.

[Shtopit]

shnurlf: I mentioned it on ##crawl-dev, but the reaction was very skeptical. Obviously, tree form is extremely strong early on. So the question is if one thinks a reasonable cost (or drawback) can be invented... and if it is worth pondering about it. I absolutely think so, both for flavour and for gameplay. Clearly, the costs for typical abilities (such as bat form), i.e. some MP and hunger (!), wouldn't cut it. Here are some crude ideas for what might work better:

• Ability refuels on xp, like some of the evokers. For example, could make it available roughly once per XL. Still strong, but now seriously limited.
• Tree form costs (temporary) stat drain. That's another, perhaps more visible, xp tax. Makes sense thematically, I think.
• Ability can only be used once on a level. This is pretty artificial, but could still be justified: "You have already set root in this area."

We need good ideas, and public pressure to [del]force[/del]convince gammafunk that tree-less Basajaun is woefully incomplete.

I like number 1, I think it's the way to go with many things (powerful racial abilities, evocables, certain potion effects). Once per level would mean being able to use treeform often at game start, where it actually makes a difference, and almost dropping it at later levels, then treeform ceases to be relevant with a few exceptions (rTorm, rN+++).


You also get a stealth bonus against early wandering uniques!

[Shard1697]

You could always just make them have to unlock treeform at a certain XL, like some other races already do with their powers. XL7, perhaps.

[VeryAngryFelid]

shnurlf: I mentioned it on ##crawl-dev, but the reaction was very skeptical. Obviously, tree form is extremely strong early on. So the question is if one thinks a reasonable cost (or drawback) can be invented... and if it is worth pondering about it. I absolutely think so, both for flavour and for gameplay. Clearly, the costs for typical abilities (such as bat form), i.e. some MP and hunger (!), wouldn't cut it. Here are some crude ideas for what might work better:

• Ability refuels on xp, like some of the evokers. For example, could make it available roughly once per XL. Still strong, but now seriously limited.
• Tree form costs (temporary) stat drain. That's another, perhaps more visible, xp tax. Makes sense thematically, I think.
• Ability can only be used once on a level. This is pretty artificial, but could still be justified: "You have already set root in this area."

We need good ideas, and public pressure to [del]force[/del]convince gammafunk that tree-less Basajaun is woefully incomplete.

Again, in CA fork the lignify ability bonus for AC depended on XL so it was weaker than vanilla crawl version early game and more powerful at XL 27.

[Elitist]

You could always just make them have to unlock treeform at a certain XL, like some other races already do with their powers. XL7, perhaps.

I like low XP gains. They're really fun to look forward to, as opposed to gaining flight at XL:14 or constrict at XL:13 when they've come too late to make a difference in the most random part of the dungeon.

[Xenobreeder]

Won one. IMO, as is they're not different enough to warrant a slot (this was the reason behind MD removal, yes?). I'd personally grant them the wild magic mutation, with upgrade to level 2 at xl14 and level 3 at xl21. This could make them interesting — most runs would never get to level 9 spells, forcing a different gameplay.

[archaeo]

IMO, instead of tree form, gammafunk should bring back one of his first features: jumping.

(I am only 70% kidding about this)

[gammafunk]

You betrayer! How dare you animate the skeletons in my closet when I'm so close to a decisive victory!