New hosted branch: haste reform

[Lasty]

Thanks to johnstein, there's a new playable branch up on CBRO: Desperate Haste (aka Haste Reform). The branch removed the spell and wand of haste from the game and replaces it with a player ability available from D:1 called Desperate Haste. Activating it is like drinking a haste potion. The ability recharges after getting roughly 3 experience levels of XP.

The premise of this design is that this gives players one reliable emergency option even on D:1. Unlike other haste sources, using it means losing access for a good chunk of time, but holding onto it means fewer total uses during the game. The intention is to add an interesting choice while removing a few overpowered resources and perhaps a few early game unavoidable deaths.

Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

Thanks!

[Sprucery]

Well, I'm not going to try it but I don't like it. Imo players should not have "one reliable emergency option even on D:1". Crawl needs more early game unavoidable deaths, not less. I don't even remember the last time I experienced an unavoidable death, disregarding Xom.

[lethediver]

Well, I'm not going to try it but I don't like it. Imo players should not have "one reliable emergency option even on D:1". Crawl needs more early game unavoidable deaths, not less. I don't even remember the last time I experienced an unavoidable death, disregarding Xom.

Im autistic so its hard for me to tell, but is this sarcasm? It really seems like no one could legitimately hold this opinion. Saying "i want more deaths i cant avoid" seems similar to saying "i want more lice that i cant get rid of" or "i want winning to be random and not involve skill" or "i want someone to slap me repeatedly and not be able to do anything about it"

Idk just seems unintuitive

[Malevolent]

Actually, this sounds like a pretty cool idea.

[Sprucery]

Im autistic so its hard for me to tell, but is this sarcasm?

No, I'm serious. I want more dangerous situations where I can barely survive by using all my knowledge. In practice this means that sometimes some situations could be too much to handle without a bit of luck. I'm fine with that. Sometimes the RNG giveth, sometimes it taketh away. That's the way it should be.

I don't mind the gnome with a wand of death in Nethack. Because if I get the gnome before it gets me, I just got myself a wand of death.

The last thing we need is a guaranteed escape mechanic. Mind you, I never engraved Elbereth in Nethack because I found it lame.

[tabstorm]

The net result is a player buff. Why on earth do people think spell haste is overpowered? You can't afford to learn it until you have already effectively won. It is just a form of "winning more".

Please, just declare all charms problematic and put them out of their misery, after this we will have a school that exists solely for *msl.

[goodcoolguy]

Big player buff.

Unlimited endgame haste is purely a convenience in an overlong game. It has no balance implications in current crawl.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I have a probably stupid question. Is it too bad idea to change all consumables to work like this? Some will recharge after 3 XL, other in 50 turns etc.? It is hard to die when you spam potions of healing, scrolls of blinking or teleportation scrolls. No id mini game obviously.

[VeryAngryFelid]

The net result is a player buff. Why on earth do people think spell haste is overpowered? You can't afford to learn it until you have already effectively won. It is just a form of "winning more".

Please, just declare all charms problematic and put them out of their misery, after this we will have a school that exists solely for *msl.

When playing a caster I have effectively won on next turn after making Haste castable. Not before that usually.

[archaeo]

I tend to agree with tabstorm, but I also have a critique (uninformed by actual play, natch) about the specific mechanic here: at 3 XL worth of XP per use, this seems like an ability that will be easy to lose in the shuffle of all the more immediate decisions a player makes. I have a hard time remembering to use breath abilities, however, so I might not be the best person to make this argument.

I think I would have less of a problem if this were swiftness (with -swift) instead of haste, with a much shorter recharge time.

[tabstorm]

The net result is a player buff. Why on earth do people think spell haste is overpowered? You can't afford to learn it until you have already effectively won. It is just a form of "winning more".

Please, just declare all charms problematic and put them out of their misery, after this we will have a school that exists solely for *msl.

When playing a caster I have effectively won on next turn after making Haste castable. Not before that usually.

You probably actually did effectively win long before that... It was probably around when you learned both bolt of X and a spell to kill enemies that resist the element you use. Unless you are an Elf or Spriggan, by the time you can afford to not put more XP towards developing your character's offense/defense, you are in the win-more stage of the game. Elves and Spriggans have so much int and a high charm apt, so learning Haste is much easier with these races.

[Lasty]

This is a player buff in the early game and a nerf in the mid to late game. Players will have a harder time being able to haste through rune vaults, zot, and extended than they did before.

It's possible that a 3 xl refresh is too fast. I could see up to 9 xl being reasonable potentially.

[lethediver]

In all seriousness, i think "use X times per Y levels" is a little...... un-Crawl-like. Idk, doesnt seem there are any other abilities that work this way except felid extra lives.

Maybe just make players start with a haste potion, remove all non potion sources of haste and reduce haste potion generation by a lot? Maybe make them not generate outside of shops idk.

[tabstorm]

It's still a player buff in the late 3-rune game. Haste wands aren't that common, and most characters without high base Int are not going to be learning spellhaste until they are well into the win-more stage, if at all. It is only really a nerf for Hell/Pan.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes, it sounds like we should remove potions of haste too. The desperate haste should be the only source of haste...

[and into]

This is a player buff in the early game and a nerf in the mid to late game. Players will have a harder time being able to haste through rune vaults, zot, and extended than they did before.

It's possible that a 3 xl refresh is too fast. I could see up to 9 xl being reasonable potentially.

I think it is a buff to players in mid- and late game as well. Not everyone finds a wand of hasting, not everyone finds spell and some of those who do, won't find it worth their while to get it castable.

I don't quite agree with Sprucery about more unavoidable deaths, but I share the sentiment that "desperate haste" probably makes early game too easy. It is only a bit weaker than starting with three potions of speed in inventory identified.

Seems like this will devalue consumables, make the ID minigame even less relevant, etc. Even starting with one !speed freebie would have a pretty big impact there.

Also kind of annoying if the uses don't stack. I get it, you don't want people using a bunch in a row. But then people "waste" a charge if they do not use one during a span of three char levels, which I imagine will be experienced as frustrating.

Anyway, I won't write more until I have tried the experimental branch, but those are my initial concerns.

[dpeg]

A problem in game design: can you invent a mechanic that is useful for everyone, but not more useful for skill players than for others?

For example, Pender (the Brogue developer) invented healing plants: these allow you to regain health very quickly. This is good for everyone, but particularly for new/bad players who tend to lose more HP. It is not abusable by good players because in Brogue, travel is too food-costly.

Lasty's haste mechanic is something similar: an immediate buff for everyone in the early game. A good player will probably not even need the effect. But they cannot stockpile them, so it's not an extra power increase for them.

Myself, I would've been happy to just see spell/wand haste removed, but I think it might be useful to consider what Lasty is onto here (these are my thoughts, I might be missing his point).

If you feel like it, the game can easily track how often Desperate Haste is used, and then you can brag about winning despoless.

[duvessa]

This is a completely uncalled-for HUGE buff to early game characters, and one that's bizarre from a player perspective at that. Games that do not generate the wand or spell are already easily winnable, and D:1-D:2 are much too easy with this change. I desperately hope this ability is removed before the branch is merged.

[fearitself]

What about this ability being every two levels of xp but it doesn't start until you've reached level 10? Probably 99% of games have not dropped wand of haste by then and nobody is casting it before then.

Now you've eliminated oversupply and buffed a bit around lair.

[TeshiAlair]

This feels awkward as hell, easy to forget to do, and unintuitive. Just make haste a god ability (give it back to Oka?) so you can elect into it if you really want it in a specific case, and you have to use other means otherwise.

[Shard1697]

This is a player buff in the early game and a nerf in the mid to late game.

...so, exactly the opposite of what crawl, which is hard enough in the early game but too easy in the mid to late game, needs?

[VeryAngryFelid]

This is a player buff in the early game and a nerf in the mid to late game.

...so, exactly the opposite of what crawl, which is hard in the early game but easy in the mid to late game, needs?

I am not sure what you mean. Early game is hard and should be easier (less unavoidable deaths, less pilar dancing, less kiting), late game is easier and should be harder, exactly what the change is trying to achieve. Now you can actually enjoy autoexploring early Dungeon even while streaking because you will have an option of fleeing. Similar explanation was given to me (by duvessa as far as I remember) when I suggested to remove scrolls of blinking, such consumables make the game more enjoyable because you can avoid spending time/patience on optimal play.

[Shard1697]

I do not agree that earlygame crawl should be easier. I think it's at a good level of difficulty and would like if the rest of the game was closer.

[VeryAngryFelid]

fearitself proposed a solution for that above, it will make late game harder while keeping early game unchanged.

[Lasty]

To everyone who strongly dislikes this change: don't worry. There isn't a lot of support for this from the dev side either, so unless I win over a lot of people (and convince myself this is definitely a good idea) it's not coming to trunk at all. There probably will be some haste removal though.

No, I'm serious. I want more dangerous situations where I can barely survive by using all my knowledge. In practice this means that sometimes some situations could be too much to handle without a bit of luck. I'm fine with that. Sometimes the RNG giveth, sometimes it taketh away. That's the way it should be.

I agree that there should be more dangerous situations where you can just barely survive if I do my absolute best, but I don't see any value in unavoidable deaths. They are, at best, a necessary evil. Introducing this ability is an attempt to give players another type of skill test that should reduce unavoidable deaths when used well and give room to make the game harder for people who use them poorly.

The net result is a player buff.

That's probably true. I could have tuned the variables better. However, the goal is not a player buff, and it doesn't have to result in a net player buff. There are a lot of levers to pull: number of haste potions generated, how fast the ability recharges, whether it starts charged or not, every other aspect of the game's balance. Hypothetically, an ability like this could make room to, say, move all speed 10 monsters to speed 12.

In all seriousness, i think "use X times per Y levels" is a little...... un-Crawl-like.

It's not like things in crawl, but that doesn't strike me as a problem.

Also kind of annoying if the uses don't stack.

Where you see annoyance, I see tension. Players are incentivized to save the ability and also to spend it. I think that offers the possibility of a good choice, the kind that creates good gameplay.

What about this ability being every two levels of xp but it doesn't start until you've reached level 10? Probably 99% of games have not dropped wand of haste by then and nobody is casting it before then.

Now you've eliminated oversupply and buffed a bit around lair.

I don't really want to buff the player, but I particularly don't want to buff them around Lair or afterward. At that point in the game, players are already far stronger than I'd like.

...so, exactly the opposite of what crawl, which is hard enough in the early game but too easy in the mid to late game, needs?

You're saying that a game that's extremely hard at the beginning (maybe too hard?) and very easy later (maybe too easy) needs to be more hard at the beginning and more easy at the end? That sounds silly to me. Making the late game harder is something I strongly support; making the early game easier isn't actually something I want to do, even though this branch currently does just that.

[Shard1697]

You're saying that a game that's extremely hard at the beginning (maybe too hard?) and very easy later (maybe too easy) needs to be more hard at the beginning and more easy at the end? That sounds silly to me. Making the late game harder is something I strongly support; making the early game easier isn't actually something I want to do, even though this branch currently does just that.

No, perhaps I worded myself badly. Like I said a couple posts up, I want earlygame to stay more or less as it is now in difficulty, and later areas to become harder.
I do not even agree that this change makes later areas, harder, though! I don't typically find wand of hasting and I very rarely learn haste on the kinds of characters I play(and haste only even shows up in one book so it's rare too!), I think for most characters this change is purely a buff because you're giving them a guaranteed source of haste they didn't have before and only taking away sources that don't normally get used anyways. The only way you could adjust it in that sense is by also affecting haste potion spawn rates, but... why have the ability, then? Why not just remove haste wand+spell and slightly lower haste potion rates(and perhaps other consumables, like blink scroll) if you want midgame/lategame to be harder? Do these things first and see the result before you throw another variable(powerful ability) into the mix, or it'll muddy the results.

[goodcoolguy]

Early game is hard and should be easier (less unavoidable deaths, less pilar dancing, less kiting), late game is easier and should be harder, exactly what the change is trying to achieve.

A lot of people have this mental model where if you increase the player's resources a little bit, you increase his odds of winning a little bit too, and if you cut them back a bit, the winrate also goes down a bit. This is not actually how it works.

What's really going on is resource saturation. The player has so much to work with that his winrate is 100% and he's got way more than he needs to reach 100%. In other words, it doesn't even make sense to talk about buffing or nerfing the player character past lair in a piecemeal, incremental way. It's purely cosmetic. You may change user experience or aesthetics, you might make the game more or less tedious, but a small change will not result in a significant nerf or buff.

[njvack]

This may be true for good players, but I definitely lose characters post-Lair, despite having played for years and being told many times that once you've hit Lair the game is won.

[VeryAngryFelid]

goodcoolguy
If you are suggesting to remove might, blinking, resistance and all haste and see how easy Zot 5 is, I will agree

If seriously, I think it is easy to make post-Lair game as hard as early Dungeon, just put a cooldown on all resources and make them require XP to recharge. I like OP idea (with fearitself's extra), too bad there is a high chance it will not make it into the trunk according to Lasty

[Shard1697]

Basically my opinion is...
"Remove sources of player haste...", yeah sure, I'd like less of those, even if they're uncommon types. Go for it!
"...and then add back in another source of player haste!" Wait, what?

[goodcoolguy]

This may be true for good players, but I definitely lose characters post-Lair, despite having played for years and being told many times that once you've hit Lair the game is won.

I do too. The thing to recognize is that you make a decision not to do the dumbest, safest, most optimal thing every turn of every game. Optimal play is not about being smart, it's about being disciplined and willing to sacrifice an enjoyable game for a sure win.

goodcoolguy
If you are suggesting to remove might, blinking, resistance and all haste and see how easy Zot 5 is, I will agree

The big offender is experience. I don't think having more or less haste in particular makes a lot of difference because you have more than enough for the places where it really counts. There are lots of silly ways to do zot 5 that make little or no use of consumables anyway (e.g. malign gateway/shadow creatures, the PoG ninja).

[duvessa]

I don't really want to buff the player, but I particularly don't want to buff them around Lair or afterward.

So why did you do both of those things, then?

[Lasty]

I don't really want to buff the player, but I particularly don't want to buff them around Lair or afterward.

So why did you do both of those things, then?

I'll contest buffing them post-Lair, but the short answer is that I think the basic structure of the ability is good and I want to try it out. I may well have picked a bad set of initial parameters; it's hard to get balance just right on something new on the first try.

[Shard1697]

I'll contest buffing them post-Lair

Is the assumption that most post-lair characters have haste spell or wand? Because that doesn't line up with my experience at all.

By the way, would it be possible for morgues from games played on this branch to show number of times desperate haste was used, and show in the 'notes' section when they used it?
like, say

  Code:

Turn   | Place    | Note
-------+----------+-------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Shard1697 the Minotaur Gladiator began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 18/18 MP: 0/0
   299 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 25/25 MP: 1/1
   548 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Staves
   842 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/30 MP: 2/2
  1467 | D:2      | Used Desperate Haste.
  1519 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 37/37 MP: 3/3

and then sometime later could also say "Regained Desperate Haste." I think this would be very useful in getting meaningful information about the ability.

[njvack]

I'll contest buffing them post-Lair

Is the assumption that most post-lair characters have haste spell or wand? Because that doesn't line up with my experience at all.

They probably have at least one potion.

EDIT: And post-Lair, you're not generally constrained by potion availability.

[tabstorm]

Reminder: People (plural) have won a Mummy Monk, with no body armor, no evocations, no spells, and no (other conducts that I forgot) and developers are still fixated on a spell that you won't learn until you have already effectively won, and a wand that rarely spawns. Why is this possible? There is too much experience. Remove Lair, or remove Depths. Either one will fix the problem quite neatly.

[duvessa]

I may well have picked a bad set of initial parameters; it's hard to get balance just right on something new on the first try.

Giving player characters a new ability is necessarily a buff, unless the ability is literally useless. This is not a matter of initial parameters. So far, nobody here has objected to your initial parameters, except maybe fearitself if you read their post really charitably. But a lot of people object to your design.

[Shard1697]

I'll contest buffing them post-Lair

Is the assumption that most post-lair characters have haste spell or wand? Because that doesn't line up with my experience at all.

They probably have at least one potion.

EDIT: And post-Lair, you're not generally constrained by potion availability.

Yes, of course. That's basically my point, most characters are using potions, not wand or spell-but this branch doesn't affect remove or reduce haste potions, it only removes the options most characters do not use, then gives all characters an ability that is strong throughout the game(because it's basically a few more guaranteed potions of haste).

So it's absolutely buffing them post-lair, because most of the time, you're giving them more haste!

[ontoclasm]

Personally I think /haste and Zhaste could just get dropped with no recourse. Haste is a luxury anyway.

[DracheReborn]

Some thoughts after trying it out for a bit.

"Desperate Haste" is a bad name for it, IMO. Every time I need a buff, this ability was my first choice, since it's free and it's use-it-or-lose-it. So I tend to use it early and often. Maybe this would change if I didn't have other consumables stockpiled.

FWIW I like this model for buffs (and maybe other consumables as well?). It discourages hoarding and doesn't allow spamming. Both of these seem to be good.

The discussion of whether this is a player buff seems to miss some of the point. Yes, straight up adding this is a buff. But what if this model replaces some consumables? Or all consumables? I.e. what if desperate haste is the only source of haste in the game?

Another thought: this model resembles god abilities to me, except gated by XP instead of piety.

[archaeo]

I'm going to move a bunch of the XP discussion to another thread, let's keep discussion here focused on the experimental branch.

"Desperate Haste" is a bad name for it, IMO.

Let's also not start the bikeshedding for this experimental feature just yet, ok?

[DracheReborn]

"Desperate Haste" is a bad name for it, IMO.

Let's also not start the bikeshedding for this experimental feature just yet, ok?

The name seems to communicate that it's a measure of last resort. I wanted to feedback that my experience of it is the opposite. I'm sorry if that's bikeshedding.

If the intention is indeed that of a last resort, there should be more of a cost attached, like Drain perhaps. As it is, I keep thinking things like "I'm about to level up, I should use my free Haste soon".

[Sprucery]

"I'm about to level up, I should use my free Haste soon".

Does it really work that way?

So if you use the haste at XL 3.95, you get a recharge at XL4? I thought the recharging begins when you use the haste so you have to gain 3 levels worth of exp to get another haste?

[Hurkyl]

Im autistic so its hard for me to tell, but is this sarcasm?

No, I'm serious. I want more dangerous situations where I can barely survive by using all my knowledge.

Make up your mind; do you want unavoidable deaths, or situations where you can barely survive by using all your knowledge?

I understand the hypothesis that you generally can't have one without the other, but your priorities become seriously screwed up when you start praising the necessary evil rather than the good thing it tags along with.

And, incidentally, the game can afford to make those dangerous situations you want more of a lot more common if the player has a one-shot escape option on D:1.

[goodcoolguy]

For the record, I think the general idea of turning effects that are currently gotten primarily through consumable items into time/xp/progress gated player abilities is reasonable.

[hannobal]

IMHO haste spell is fine otherwise, but it should really be at least level 7 spell.

[DracheReborn]

"I'm about to level up, I should use my free Haste soon".

Does it really work that way?

So if you use the haste at XL 3.95, you get a recharge at XL4? I thought the recharging begins when you use the haste so you have to gain 3 levels worth of exp to get another haste?

Oops, you're right. I did feel some incentive to use it early, because you level up faster in the early XLs. But sorry, my recollection was somewhat off.

EDIT: I remember now. I was making a deliberate effort to maximize Desperate Haste usage. So that's why I was tracking XL

[Sprucery]

I understand the hypothesis that you generally can't have one without the other, but your priorities become seriously screwed up when you start praising the necessary evil rather than the good thing it tags along with.

What I'm saying is that the foundation of the game design should not be 'guarantee that all situations are survivable'. How can there be hard situations where I escape with a couple of hit points left if there is not a possibility of dying in that situation? A guaranteed escape method at game start is a bit like an extra life. Boring.

Like I said in a previous post, I don't even remember the last time I experienced an unavoidable death that didn't involve Xom. So I don't see any reason to make those situations rarer.

And, incidentally, the game can afford to make those dangerous situations you want more of a lot more common if the player has a one-shot escape option on D:1.

So you just get a free pass from the first of such situations. Not good imo.

[chequers]

the foundation of the game design should not be 'guarantee that all situations are survivable'

Sure. How did you get from this principle to "desperate haste guarantees that all situations are survivable"? Because that's what it seems like you are arguing.

[Sprucery]

the foundation of the game design should not be 'guarantee that all situations are survivable'

Sure. How did you get from this principle to "desperate haste guarantees that all situations are survivable"? Because that's what it seems like you are arguing.

It doesn't, of course. Desperate haste guarantees* that the first of such situations is survivable. The first one is probably the most dangerous one, too. So this small step is actually quite a big step towards that direction.

* Of course it doesn't exactly guarantee that, but you get the idea.