About the reaction to direction of trunk dev of Koreans user

[kimnosuk]

Hello, I am Korean DCSS user, started playing DCSS from 08-21 this year, and cleared with 15 runes in 09-05.

Though I am a newb to this game, I have gathered many information and thoughts about DCSS from the Korean roguelike community with many people, DCinside Roguelike Gallery(DCSS Stonesoup is the most-played game with Pixel Dungeon here, it works as a board type online community). I want to share the view of them and mine, and know what you guys think about.

1) Special Traits of Weapon
The widely agreed notion of the melee combat here is that axes and unarmed combat is a lot better than others. Damage per turn dealt of unarmed combat is too high(although they can't get stats from artifact weapon), and the cleaving attack of the axes surpass any other advantages gained from other weapon type.

Well, polearms have more tactical usages to maces/long blades/staves, but how about those three? Counterattack after an evasion is worse than cleaves, because it depends on chance more and enforce player to wear less-encumbering armour, which restricts play styles. Maces have highest base damage within weapons, but too slight. Actually, if you want higher base damage unarmed combat will give you visible increase. Even transmutation skills are designed to be with unarmed combat(Especially Statue Form). Staves can be used to early game without invest exp because it has quite fine attack speed and accuracy, but still do not have any merits to wiled at later game.

People want to use more variety of weapons, without interrupting the balance too much.

(my opinion) How about make maces much less effected by AC, and staves chance to parry and disarm?

2) Statue Form
Obviously, statue form is the most commonly used form in Korean server. Because statue form gives you stability and damage both at a time. It has rather lower level than dragon form and hydra form, so it is much easy to stabilize, but surpass the utility of them. As you know, transmutations will mold your armors in your body, so after the spell cast, character will sometimes get vulnerable to many elemental damages.

Surely, higher transmutation spell offers you some resistances, but Necromutatin and Statue form are a lot more efficient.

Statue form(Lv6): rElec, rPoison, rTorment(50%), rN+, rRot
Hydra form(Lv6): None
Dragon Form(Lv7): rF++, rPoison
Necromutation(Lv8): rN+++, rC+, Immune to Torment, MR+

As you see, statue form and necromutation offer more resistances and they confer resistance or immunity to torment, the most threat of the later game. Because necromutation needs a lot of experience and has a quite difficult exchange(become weak to holy damage and dispel undead, can't quaff), most player in Korean server invest in transmutation only to transform into hard white rock, and many players think this gives too restrictive game play experience. Can we buff other forms a little, so that transmuters can change their form dynamically adapting to the conditions?

Well, people have more opinions about the game, but these two are the mostly discussed topics. if you have any suggestion, please comment.

Feel free to point out false English or incomprehensible sentences, thanks.

[papilio]

In short: Statue form is f**king OP. Maces are featureless and weak.


My idea:

Nerf cleaving. Decrease probability from 100% -> 19+(Axes LV)*3 %.
Adjust armour-piercing to maces. (Like riposte, maces ignores half of AC with 33% prob)

Statue form: lv6 -> lv8 spell, but slightly buff AC bonus

[Shard1697]

I would strongly disagree about unarmed combat. Yes, it will eventually become strong, but unless you have claws for most of the game it will be weaker than weapons-and in particular, it will be much weaker during the earlygame, which is the most dangerous part of the game. I would call it weaker than any of the weapon types when you're just trying to win the game(not become super-strong in endgame, which isn't that important).

I don't see any large imbalance in terms of power between the other weapon types. I'm a bit split about the worth of axe's cleaving-many people here will say "it's not good because you should always be limiting enemies near you, ideally to only 1 enemy at a time, if enemies are actually dangerous". I think that that is mostly true, but I don't go as far in that direction as many tavern regulars. I think that in a normal game there are at least some times where it is fairly dangerous and also very difficult or impossible to limit enemies like this, and the kill speed from cleaving vs. crowds is useful then. All in all I think axes are about equal with other weapons in normal play, but super good for speedrunning(if you look at "Fastest (Real-Time)" here, they're almost all using axes with only a few exceptions, including my own fastest run there which, granted, might give me a slight bias).

I agree that statue form feels a bit dominant as a full transmutation(the other good tmut spell, IMO, is blade hands, which doesn't shift your whole body-well, and sticks to snakes, but that spell isn't really a transmutations type spell). In particular I think hydra form feels... very weak for what it is. Your defenses as hydra are quite bad, and the cleaving+devouring doesn't seem worth it for the investment to me. Dragon form is alright, but I think it could lose rC-.

In short: Statue form is f**king OP. Maces are featureless and weak.


My idea:

Nerf cleaving. Decrease probability from 100% -> 19+(Axes LV)*3 %.
Adjust armour-piercing to maces. (Like riposte, maces ignores half of AC with 33% prob)

Statue form: lv6 -> lv8 spell, but slightly buff AC bonus

Maces aren't actually weak, they're totally fine in terms of power-just more basic(which isn't necessarily bad). No need for a buff atm, especially not something as dull as "ignore AC", which might as well be a straight damage buff... I do not think staves need a buff either, they are the best starting weapon, lajatangs are super good for the XP investment, and they are the only weapon type which affects magic via enhancer staves.

Statue form is good, I think the best option lategame for transmutations, but I do not think it needs a nerf anywhere near as heavy as increasing by 2 levels, or even a nerf at all. I think the issue is more the other options being weaker, especially hydra form.

[duvessa]

Hydra form is better than statue form, honest.

[DracheReborn]

UC is supposed to be the highest weapon damage type by design. The tradeoff is that you need enormous amounts of skill to make it strong. In general you need substantially fewer skill levels with weapons to get "enough" damage, which means you can then put more skill points in defenses. But if you just want to go for highest DPS then yeah it's UC for single target and cleaving for multiple targets.

People disagree about cleaving here too. Some people think it's too strong, others think all fights should be one-on-one so cleaving doesn't matter. In my own playing experience, the most I can say for cleaving is "occasionally useful" I think.

Regarding other possible weapon effects, they have been much discussed but mostly rejected. Ignoring AC for example, isn't much different from just increasing base damage (and maces already have highest base damage.) FWIW, disarm is already present in an unrand, and parry is basically SH.

Statue form has big drawbacks, such as being slow and gear becoming melded, but if you just mean Necromut sucks then a lot of people here will agree. I would also like to point out that it's possible to do 15 runes with no Transmutations at all, but you make it sound like everyone on the Korean server gets Statue Form?

[kimnosuk]

UC is supposed to be the highest weapon damage type by design. The tradeoff is that you need enormous amounts of skill to make it strong. In general you need substantially fewer skill levels with weapons to get "enough" damage, which means you can then put more skill points in defenses. But if you just want to go for highest DPS then yeah it's UC for single target and cleaving for multiple targets.

People disagree about cleaving here too. Some people think it's too strong, others think all fights should be one-on-one so cleaving doesn't matter. In my own playing experience, the most I can say for cleaving is "occasionally useful" I think.

Regarding other possible weapon effects, they have been much discussed but mostly rejected. Ignoring AC for example, isn't much different from just increasing base damage (and maces already have highest base damage.) FWIW, disarm is already present in an unrand, and parry is basically SH.

Statue form has big drawbacks, such as being slow and gear becoming melded, but if you just mean Necromut sucks then a lot of people here will agree. I would also like to point out that it's possible to do 15 runes with no Transmutations at all, but you make it sound like everyone on the Korean server gets Statue Form?

One-on-one strategy is crucial to go through dungeons, but still at later game, it becomes very hard to make the situation. Almost every maps at later game(such as tomb, hell, abyss..) are widely open and walls are too hard to dig(without shatter or LRD), so melee players have to face plural enemies at once. So axes may be similar to other weapons at early game, but it gets the highest point after 4~5 rune is achieved.

And statue form is the most favorite choice Korean players get. Most of player cleared with 15 runes get one of these; statue form, necromutation and conjuration, or axe, shield and heavy armour. Adding one more thing, Statue form combined with Cheibriados makes later game too easy. Cheibriados' power makes up for every deficits from statue form.

[BabyRage]

Statue form combined with Cheibriados makes later game too easy. Cheibriados' power makes up for every deficits from statue form.

Lol, I thought I'm the only one who feels this way, since the Tavern seems to be too invested in the "Chei is bad" meme.

[kimnosuk]

Lol, I thought I'm the only one who feels this way, since the Tavern seems to be too invested in the "Chei is bad" meme.

Whaw, is there meme like that? Koreans think Cheibrados is at top tier especially to transmuters for it offers great survive, AOE, and enormous stats.

[kimnosuk]

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/justnoob.html

Here is one of great players who loves play with cheibriados and statue form.

[pedritolo]

Lol, I thought I'm the only one who feels this way, since the Tavern seems to be too invested in the "Chei is bad" meme.

Whaw, is there meme like that? Koreans think Cheibrados is at top tier especially to transmuters for it offers great survive, AOE, and enormous stats.

Well, to be fair, chei is indeed a very poor choice in the early game, before you get some piety. Like everyone says, the early game is the most dangerous part.

But once you do get your piety a bit high, you become an unstoppable machine of destruction. I'm sure most people would agree with this assertion, no?

[BabyRage]

Lol, I thought I'm the only one who feels this way, since the Tavern seems to be too invested in the "Chei is bad" meme.

Whaw, is there meme like that? Koreans think Cheibrados is at top tier especially to transmuters for it offers great survive, AOE, and enormous stats.

Well, to be fair, chei is indeed a very poor choice in the early game, before you get some piety. Like everyone says, the early game is the most dangerous part.

But once you do get your piety a bit high, you become an unstoppable machine of destruction. I'm sure most people would agree with this assertion, no?

I remember in my cheinaga thread duvessa wrote that chei in extended is worse than godless.

[dpeg]

pedritolo: Yes. I think part of the problem is that posters are often very (even completely) implicit with their assumptions. When I say "X is strong/weak/unfun/overpowered/etc.", then I have a set of assumptions. In discussions like these, it is important to share them: am I talking about win rate (i.e. "optimal play"). Or do I have a particular, strong build in mind.

Failure to share assumptions is especially bad if a posting dismisses someone else's opinion. This is why I am really unhappy with the forum population who goes endlessly like "X is badly designed", "Y is unfun", "Z can be removed" -- end of posting. Discussion needs context!

[DracheReborn]

Lol, I thought I'm the only one who feels this way, since the Tavern seems to be too invested in the "Chei is bad" meme.

Whaw, is there meme like that? Koreans think Cheibrados is at top tier especially to transmuters for it offers great survive, AOE, and enormous stats.

Oooh, culture clash.

Some prevailing thoughts on Tavern, which may or may not reflect official dev philosophy:
* "Normal" games are 3-runers. Anything beyond that is "extended" and not really balanced
* The game is considered harder in early game than in late game. "Hobgoblin" is considered one of the more dangerous enemies
* Move speed is good, Haste is good, so Chei is very bad and Statue form is bad
* Win rate, streaks, low turncount, and low XL wins are things which are considered impressive in Tavern

Hope this helps to explain some of the responses you get.

[kimnosuk]

To say about context, axes and statue form have these issue.

Axe at early game may be not so worse or better than other weapons, but turns goes by and players are imposed to fight in open area(in tomb, when you go down the stair 2 to 3, you should fight at least 4 mummies at once!). So Axes are not bad at early game and the best at later game, which means it does not have any weakness.

Statue form is easier to cast because its schools are earth/transmutation(If you worship chei, intelligence boost will make stabilizing statue form even faster), offers nice damage output and incredible tankiness. The torment resistance is very unique and powerful, and rElec can be only achieved by artifact or mutation. Resistance to Negativity is also very good stuff because after 4 runes, rN becomes the most important resistance.

[kimnosuk]

Oooh, culture clash.

Some prevailing thoughts on Tavern, which may or may not reflect official dev philosophy:
* "Normal" games are 3-runers. Anything beyond that is "extended" and not really balanced
* The game is considered harder in early game than in late game. "Hobgoblin" is considered one of the more dangerous enemies
* Move speed is good, Haste is good, so Chei is very bad and Statue form is bad
* Win rate, streaks, low turncount, and low XL wins are things which are considered impressive in Tavern

Hope this helps to explain some of the responses you get.

Thanks, maybe goals we want to get in this game seem to be much different to you guys.

[dpeg]

kimnosuk: I didn't mean you -- your original posting specifies context: you explicitly say that you go for damage/turn. We introduced cleaving in an attempt to differentiate weapon types (which is very hard or perhaps impossible to do just with numbers). The effect can be very useful, also early on (sometimes you cannot avoid fighting several monsters), but base damage of axes got reduced as compensation. So for power level of axes, the question is: how much is the cleaving ability worth? This is hard to decide, and I am very happy that players have completely different opinions, between "must use, strongest weapon type" and "completely underpowered, should never use". This makes a designer hope that the truth is somewhere in between. More precisely, I would hope that usefulness of axes depends on several things: for example, if you're slow (Naga, Cheibriados), then axes are stronger than if you're fast because you can less often run away and re-position to fight one on one.

I also really like that you love Cheibriados so much (I had a hand in designing this god). At the tavern, Chei is mostly seen as a joke/gimmick/challenge god, except for a few unflinching disciples.

Many thanks for your report! What does your community think on current removals (Lair:6 -> Lair:4 for example) and nerfs?

Edit: from reading this thread (and some similar others), perhaps we should actually put a little more focus on the extended game. What do you think of Hells, Pan and ziggurats? Would CWZ go crazy if Hells and Pan were merged?

[kimnosuk]

Many thanks for your report! What does your community think on current removals (Lair:6 -> Lair:4 for example) and nerfs?

Edit: from reading this thread (and some similar others), perhaps we should actually put a little more focus on the extended endgame. What do you think of Hells, Pan and ziggurats? Would CWZ go crazy if Hells and Pan were merged?

Will Lair be shorten again(I heard in old version Lair was longer)? Well, I think that is not bad, but I surely worry that earlier game become too much difficult. But I don't think that will effect too much the gameplay.

Many users in our community think endgame is a bit boring, especially Pan. You know, endless dungeons connected with portals are really well matched to settings, but it is very boring in gameplay to find portal again and again till finding the rune-contained branch. Hells get more liking, but we are aware of need of reworks. Tomb is the best designed later game dungeon we think, although it is very hard(its unique map design, mummies and curses..)

And about Ziggurat.. Even we don't care about Zig a lot, thinking that is for players with very unique tastes. Some players here has very special playstyle they call 'museum' - to find all pickdarts in game and display them. But I don't think that is normal style haha. (see here: http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/?id ... 4%ED%8A%B8)

Maybe like Zig, Pan can use some more themes, like 'hell filled with spiders and entropy weavers(this makes me sick)'?

People here have some complaints about removal of 'rogue-like' traits of the game. Such as removal of Beogh's smite when you destruct the orcrish Idol. Well we know that has not much influences on the game, but it makes players imagine on the game's setting, isn't it? It gives a bit of fun and does not have any bad, I wonder why that should be removed from game.

Edit: I think why Koreans are not so enthusiastic about Zig is there is no rune. Rune is the high motivation for people, because there it is. If Pan(with many many runes) have variety of themes not only just demons or angels, people will gladly charge into death of the character.

[goodcoolguy]

As remarked on upthread, North American and European player culture tends to emphasize high winrates and streaking as the gold standard of high level play. To be honest, this is pretty misguided because high winrates and streaks are both easy to obtain and awful to execute -- it's simply not fun.

I think people here would probably agree if you're going for peak performance at some point in the midgame or later, gods like Chei and Ash that NA/EU goodplayers often frown on are actually good. For example, Chei turncount speedrunning seems to be the current hotness.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Win rate, streaks, low turncount, and low XL wins are things which are considered impressive in Tavern

Hope this helps to explain some of the responses you get.

I am really impressed by that "justnoob". Multiple Felids of Chei were won in 3 hours and about 30k turns with 15 runes and Chei... I hope western players are impressed by this like I am

[Siegurt]

I think that a lot of it depends on what you think of as the goal of the game,

For multiple attempts at finishing a 15 rune game successfully, axes and chei are powerful, because both contribute to playing in both less turns and less time, so they both contribute to increased score and more attempts per given time period.

For a single attempt at finishing a non 15 rune game *safely* things like stealth, ranged attacks and movement speed are much more important.

For a single attempt at fininshing a 15 rune game safely you might want to also emphasize summons and/or high level conjurations, or lots of flexibility.

There's lots of other possible goals, and these aren't all the ways of even achieving the stated goals.

I suspect that the Korean community places a higher emphasis on something like "number of 15 rune wins per month" or "high scores", something like that, without much of an interest in how many deaths occur, whereas the tavern tends to focus less on high scores and number of wins than it focuses on not dying in any single given attempt.

[kimnosuk]

I suspect that the Korean community places a higher emphasis on something like "number of 15 rune wins per month" or "high scores", something like that, without much of an interest in how many deaths occur, whereas the tavern tends to focus less on high scores and number of wins than it focuses on not dying in any single given attempt.

you got it.

We mainly appericate win with "high score" and "weak combo"(like MiFE or FeFi)

[BabyRage]

MiFE is a strong combo though.

[Rast]

MiFE isn't weak. It's the same as MiFi but with less strength and no starting weapon. Really strong.

[kimnosuk]

Oh, I see. thanks.

[dpeg]

Perhaps MiFE was meant in kimnosuk's example as played like a FE (rather than a weapon-less fighter)?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Perhaps MiFE was meant in kimnosuk's example as played like a FE (rather than a weapon-less fighter)?

I tried playing MiWz/FE as Wz/FE, it is not viable (i.e. you need crazy luck to survive early if you refuse to melee).

[BabyRage]

Perhaps MiFE was meant in kimnosuk's example as played like a FE (rather than a weapon-less fighter)?

By that logic, every combo can be weak, because you can play it in a weak way.

[dpeg]

BabyRage: I am only giving a hint why MiFE could legibly be seen as a weak combination.

In other words: we don't know how much emphasis people on CWZ put on flavour, for example. It is very tavern-y to dismiss this right away.

[BabyRage]

You're right, I'm sorry. I'm too used to tavern mentality.

[Shard1697]

"Very tavern-y" for new meme 2k16

Do Korean/CWZ players care about realtime speedruns, or just turncount speedruns/highscore?

[gammafunk]

Many users in our community think endgame is a bit boring, especially Pan. You know, endless dungeons connected with portals are really well matched to settings, but it is very boring in gameplay to find portal again and again till finding the rune-contained branch. Hells get more liking, but we are aware of need of reworks. Tomb is the best designed later game dungeon we think, although it is very hard(its unique map design, mummies and curses..)

Thanks for taking the time to make this report. I recorded that game you were watching on youtube and will likely complete the character with 15 runes as I have time. The sounds were very amusing to everyone watching!

We have two questions about CWZ that would be great to have answered:

1. For the custom loading images I've collected here), will the original artist allow those images to be licensed under the CC0 license? If so, some are good candidates to become official loading images that we can put in the game. Additionally, is there a way that the new images you receive from Korean artists that you put on CWZ (webzook.net) are also sent to the dev team?

2. How did you collect all of the sound files for the sound patch? Many seem taken from various places (Castlevania, Super Mario), but are the others from a public sound library?

If you can find out the answers to these questions, it would be greatly appreciated!

Regarding the differences in player culture, there is a community of players that do attempts for things like highest score and fastest win:
See the following players:

• 4tharraofdagon, who has most of the species and class high scores
• Demise, who has the fastest win in realtime at 41 minutes.
• pedritolo, who has the win at lowest XL (currently XL 9!).

However most players do focus on 3-rune games because these games contain the most essentially fun parts of DCSS. Once your character is strong enough to win with 3-runes, the difficulty of winning for 15 runes is not much, provided that you aren't trying to win with a high score. The development team focuses work on balancing the 3-rune portion of the game, however we would like to improve the extended branches. There are various proposals to shorten Pan and possibly Hell, hopefully one of which will make it to version 0.20. Big changes to Pan and Hell seem unlikely for 0.19 at this point.

It's very interesting to hear that you like Tomb as the best extended branch! Even among avid 15-rune players, many despise that branch the most due to the amount of Torment and death curses. Glad to hear that the randomization that was added to Tomb was appreciated.

[kimnosuk]

Many users in our community think endgame is a bit boring, especially Pan. You know, endless dungeons connected with portals are really well matched to settings, but it is very boring in gameplay to find portal again and again till finding the rune-contained branch. Hells get more liking, but we are aware of need of reworks. Tomb is the best designed later game dungeon we think, although it is very hard(its unique map design, mummies and curses..)

Thanks for taking the time to make this report. I recorded that game you were watching on youtube and will likely complete the character with 15 runes as I have time. The sounds were very amusing to everyone watching!

We have two questions about CWZ that would be great to have answered:

1. For the custom loading images I've collected here), will the original artist allow those images to be licensed under the CC0 license? If so, some are good candidates to become official loading images that we can put in the game. Additionally, is there a way that the new images you receive from Korean artists that you put on CWZ (webzook.net) are also sent to the dev team?

2. How did you collect all of the sound files for the sound patch? Many seem taken from various places (Castlevania, Super Mario), but are the others from a public sound library?

If you can find out the answers to these questions, it would be greatly appreciated!

Regarding the differences in player culture, there is a community of players that do attempts for things like highest score and fastest win:
See the following players:

• 4tharraofdagon, who has most of the species and class high scores
• Demise, who has the fastest win in realtime at 41 minutes.
• pedritolo, who has the win at lowest XL (currently XL 9!).

However most players do focus on 3-rune games because these games contain the most essentially fun parts of DCSS. Once your character is strong enough to win with 3-runes, the difficulty of winning for 15 runes is not much, provided that you aren't trying to win with a high score. The development team focuses work on balancing the 3-rune portion of the game, however we would like to improve the extended branches. There are various proposals to shorten Pan and possibly Hell, hopefully one of which will make it to version 0.20. Big changes to Pan and Hell seem unlikely for 0.19 at this point.

It's very interesting to hear that you like Tomb as the best extended branch! Even among avid 15-rune players, many despise that branch the most due to the amount of Torment and death curses. Glad to hear that the randomization that was added to Tomb was appreciated.

First, I am very exited that developers making the nice game pay attention for my posts. My gratitude.

My question: What is CWZ?

and about 'MiFE', I wanted to say to play through a 'normal FE way' and you guys found out what i meant. you can see one example here MiFE clear without investing any melee combat skill: http://webzook.net/soup/morgue/trunk/jo ... 152302.txt

about sound patch: It is made by a korean user 'Crawler'. I don't know about how and when it is made sorry. There is a memeic sound patch here too, "zin soundpatch". If you type in /zin in the chat room, the sound patch will turn all sounds about Zin(such as cast recite, sanctuary, and Tithe...) to somewhat a 'zealous' preach. It is meme here that Zin is representing a corrupted church.

about some piece of pics for loading screen: Our server owner 'hong' is always open for new loading screens offering, making a board for participation: http://webzook.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=webzook_pic. People also submit pictures from the community(DCinside Rlike Gallery). If you guys are interested in it I am glad to tell to the drawers about it, artists will be surely excited that their pics "reexported".

about player culture: Real turn score is the most appreciated, and real time play is not that so highly famous here. I don't see here people try to 'clear before a hour', I think because people here focus on 15-rune clears maybe? and like 'MiFe' I noted, players with very exotic combination will attract more people.

I want to tell more about especially Pan and Hell. I think 15-rune gets easier because difficulties made from almost same sources, like 'torment' , 'damnation', and 'negative energy'. After 5 runes, you will meet demons again and again(exception of Tomb and Pan Angel Theme). I suggest Pan theme uses more from Zig which uses many theme but players mostly don't select to get in. If you can find angels in Pandemonium, why wouldn't there be Iron giants and Shrikes in 'infinite hell'?

[gammafunk]

My question: What is CWZ?

Oops, sorry, I should have explained, CWZ is the official name we use for the South Korean server at http://webzook.net:8080/. All online servers have an abbreviation like that.

[Rast]

OP, what does the Korean community think about Beogh currently? What would they change?

[kimnosuk]

OP, what does the Korean community think about Beogh currently? What would they change?

Haha many western guys think we Koreans are into Beogh because of hanon.. Here, we too, Beogh is one of lest worshiped Gods. so we do not care about him much..

But still we worry that haste reforms will srsly decrease damage outputs of Beogh player.

Because haste orc followers is very important technique for playing Beogh.. So, if haste is reformed as planned, we think Beogh should be buffed also.

[DracheReborn]

Because haste orc followers is very important technique for playing Beogh.. So, if haste is reformed as planned, we think Beogh should be buffed also.

Give Beogh a "buff orc" ability than randomly mights or hastes a nearby orc. Preferably make it a passive effect.

[lethediver]

OP can you get "Crawler" to give us his sound patch thing? We'll pay him money

[kimnosuk]

OP can you get "Crawler" to give us his sound patch thing? We'll pay him money

I am afraid of telling you that he is disappeared from our community before about 3 months ago. But our web developer will work together with gammafunk and me to share our module with you western guys in December.

[lethediver]

OP can you get "Crawler" to give us his sound patch thing? We'll pay him money

I am afraid of telling you that he is disappeared from our community before about 3 months ago. But our web developer will work together with gammafunk and me to share our module with you western guys in December.

This is gonna be the best christmas ever!!!!!!!!!!!

[tasonir]

Apparently I'm Korean! Welcome Kimnosuk, and thanks for the korean crawl perspective. I'm like justnoob - a fairly devoted Chei player, who loves statue form. Feel free to spread around my stats page to show there's some americans who agree with you: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html I haven't quite picked up a love for axes yet, but that's probably just because I'm using unarmed all the time. I do try to mix in the occasional other god, but by my count I'm at 45/78 online wins with chei, so there you have it. Before this I was really into starcraft, so please adopt me. We can watch the GSL together, if anyone still pays attention to starcraft 2 (it's not nearly as popular as the original was/is).

Statue form's stability and resistance to bad damage rolls is just so useful and allows you to make a lot of mistakes and still not die. The only issue is once you get used to that power you don't want to play anything else

[Croases]

Such as removal of Beogh's smite when you destruct the orcrish Idol. Well we know that has not much influences on the game, but it makes players imagine on the game's setting, isn't it? It gives a bit of fun and does not have any bad, I wonder why that should be removed from game.

Well, Crawl tries to remove spoilery interactions whenever possible, and I did once get oneshot from full HP for invoking a high-power orb card as an elf in a corridor of orcish idols...

Also great fun: Weapons of electrocution used to arc through water, giving you pseudo-cleaving. Beogh also gives you water walking for some inscrutable reason, so if you attacked say, a swamp worm with your battleaxe of electrocution while on deep water, it would arc on to your orcish followers (without warning, mind you, until later versions), which would put you under Beogh penance, which would stop your waterwalking, which would make you drown with no save.

Beogh may be a terrible god, but let's give credit where it is due, it certainly improved over time. Now to remove that silly "no non-orcish followers" conduct...

[dpeg]

Beogh also gives you water walking for some inscrutable reason

John 6:19, Mat 14:25

[Shtopit]

Beogh also gives you water walking for some inscrutable reason

John 6:19, Mat 14:25

Do you also sink if your faith falters?

[dpeg]

Shtopit: You used to, but that was changed. There's one really funny death where a character smites a hydra, and drowns

[claws]

Man, the huge culture divide between how the majority of the experienced English-speaking community sees extended as "optional content that's much too long, full of redundant filler, and with not enough control over it" and how other places like the Korean community sees extended as "the standard and true win, accomplished after great strife or as a victory lap of great player power" makes me kind of antsy. If my Hell-Pan Roulette plans succeed in 0.20 as they should for the sake of the size of each game they'll probably be even more completely confused as to how things work in this wasteland....

[gammafunk]

Man, the huge culture divide between how the majority of the experienced English-speaking community sees extended as "optional content that's much too long, full of redundant filler, and with not enough control over it" and how other places like the Korean community sees extended as "the standard and true win, accomplished after great strife or as a victory lap of great player power" makes me kind of antsy. If my Hell-Pan Roulette plans succeed in 0.20 as they should for the sake of the size of each game they'll probably be even more completely confused as to how things work in this wasteland....

I've been playing a "Card Knight" challenge run on CWZ conceived of by one of the players there, and I get to chat with Korean players who can converse in english. They also consider extended to be tedious in various ways, but there is more embrace of extended despite the tedium. I've heard it expressed by these players a few times that Tomb is more interesting because of the relatively extreme nature of that branch; it's finite and densely packed with smite and torment. I get asked frequently about "new runes" and extended changes, so I think you'll find there's excitement in that community for any big extended changes, particularly things that feel like new, challenging content.

[Shard1697]

Do you know how do they feel about the criticisms of tomb in the vein of "you just retreat up stairs to reset fights all the time, keeping it non-dangerous but long"?

I'm glad they see it being finite as a positive.

[dpeg]

gammafunk: do you know where the Korean players you talk to put ziggurats on that list? Is it part of their extended game, or do they consider this as truly optional?

There have been improvements to extended over the years, but I think that was the only *addition*.

[Psieye]

gammafunk: do you know where the Korean players you talk to put ziggurats on that list? Is it part of their extended game, or do they consider this as truly optional?

Didn't we get a post from a Korean on that? "Ziggurats aren't exciting because there's no rune to show you did it".

[dpeg]

Psieye: I see. A rune for ziggurats is out of the question, but some prize item could be done.