Character difficulty tier list?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 20:45

Character difficulty tier list?

I decided to go for greater player starting with all races first, is there a list which gives a general idea of how hard a race is in reference to others, because now all I'm doing is going in order of the character select screen

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:04

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Pull the three fast species at the top of the list and put the slow species on the very bottom, and then order the average-speed species according to hit point bonus, and you've got around 80% of the list sorted already. You also have a handful of freaks like deep dwarf which gets moved to the top of the list because it is actually playing a completely different game than standard Crawl and mummies that get kicked down a bunch because they can't quaff, but for the majority of species speed and hit points are more important than anything else.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:05

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Here's my personal ranking, take it with a grain huge spoonful of salt. In practice DD is the best; Fo is much lower; Tr, Ce and Sp are near the top.

1 formicid
2 vine stalker
3 deep dwarf
4 vampire
5 minotaur
6 gargoyle
7 halfling
8 mountain dwarf
9 ghoul
10 troll
11 hill orc
12 centaur
13 merfolk
14 human
15 draconian
16 spriggan
17 kobold
18 felid
19 ogre
20 mummy
21 grey elf
22 naga
23 tengu/kenku
24 demigod
25 sludge elf
26 demonspawn
27 deep elf
28 high elf
29 octopode
...CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:12

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

KoboldLord wrote:Pull the three fast species at the top of the list and put the slow species on the very bottom, and then order the average-speed species according to hit point bonus, and you've got around 80% of the list sorted already. You also have a handful of freaks like deep dwarf which gets moved to the top of the list because it is actually playing a completely different game than standard Crawl and mummies that get kicked down a bunch because they can't quaff, but for the majority of species speed and hit points are more important than anything else.

So you are saying that felid is top 3 easiest species? Really?

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:20

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Sprucery wrote:Here's my personal ranking, take it with a grain huge spoonful of salt. In practice DD is the best; Fo is much lower; Tr, Ce and Sp are near the top.

1 formicid
2 vine stalker
3 deep dwarf
4 vampire
5 minotaur
6 gargoyle
7 halfling
8 mountain dwarf
9 ghoul
10 troll
11 hill orc
12 centaur
13 merfolk
14 human
15 draconian
16 spriggan
17 kobold
18 felid
19 ogre
20 mummy
21 grey elf
22 naga
23 tengu/kenku
24 demigod
25 sludge elf
26 demonspawn
27 deep elf
28 high elf
29 octopode


How old is this haha
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:29

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

demonspawn are better than tengu, high elf is better than deep elf, vampires are worse than minotaurs, the only species worse than mummies is octopode.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:31

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

BabyRage wrote:So you are saying that felid is top 3 easiest species? Really?


Deep dwarves are kind of freaks and felids have the lowest hp of the three fast species, so fourth place is probably a pretty solid placement for felids. Not sure why this would be questionable, unless you are counting as a ranking-relevant threat the rising urge to quit the game or commit suicide when you realize you are playing a felid and can expect to continue playing a felid for several more hours.

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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:36

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

I thought Felid was considered one of the hardest races?

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:41

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

One of the hardest to win for a human, maybe. That's not because of its power level though.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 21:58

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

CypherZel wrote:How old is this haha

It's perfectly up-to-date!
...CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 22:13

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

I just won human about an hour ago so I'm guessing I can knock out the upper half pretty quick by going Be
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 23:09

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

OP races:
Mi, Gr, VS, DD, Ce, Sp, Tr

Weak races:
DE, Te, Op, Mu

Middling races: Everyone else

OP backgrounds:
Be

Good backgrounds
IE, FE, Ne, Fi, Gl (of a non-Weak race)

Weak backgrounds:
CK, AE, EE, Sk, AM, VM

Italics denotes especially good/bad within a tier.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 23:13

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Fuck k have to win VM ;-;. Il save if for last so hopefully they remove it by then lol,

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 23:24

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

CypherZel wrote:Fuck k have to win VM ;-;. Il save if for last so hopefully they remove it by then lol,

Do TrVM or MiVM. Ignore your spells (until you get a weapon, for MiVM), and just melee stuff.

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Post Saturday, 24th September 2016, 23:25

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

arandomperson12 wrote:
CypherZel wrote:Fuck k have to win VM ;-;. Il save if for last so hopefully they remove it by then lol,

Do TrVM or MiVM. Ignore your spells (until you get a weapon, for MiVM), and just melee stuff.


Funny you should say that, I literally just said to myself "il just play MiVM find trog and burn that shitty spell book and laugh

Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 00:21

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Poison magic is really good though.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 00:26

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

edgefigaro wrote:Poison magic is really good though.

no
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 03:52

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Poison book start without very early ignite poison is about as tedious as crawl gets. Also hep can help make most difficult starts much more manageable if found early.

Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 04:32

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

tabstorm wrote:OP races:
Mi, Gr, VS, DD, Ce, Sp, Tr

Weak races:
DE, Te, Op, Mu

Middling races: Everyone else

OP backgrounds:
Be

Good backgrounds
IE, FE, Ne, Fi, Gl (of a non-Weak race)

Weak backgrounds:
CK, AE, EE, Sk, AM, VM

Italics denotes especially good/bad within a tier.


Would you mind elaborating on why you'd list EE and AE as weak backgrounds? I find that surprising to be honest.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 06:15

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

maybe he doesn't know about simple_targeting yet

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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 09:17

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Why is tengu considered bad?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 09:22

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

CypherZel wrote:Why is tengu considered bad?

Tengu have both a lower HP attribute, and limited head, and no boot slots, making them more fragile than average, that doesn't really mean "bad" so much as "requires more careful play to not die"

(I'm not sure why Felid aren't on the "weak races" list by that logic, although they do get extra lives which offsets the fragility somewhat)
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 09:41

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Baldu3 wrote:Poison book start without very early ignite poison is about as tedious as crawl gets. Also hep can help make most difficult starts much more manageable if found early.


I really don't like hep with range really annoying to have to move around and get my spirit dude out of my line of site
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 11:05

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

good, cool tier lists:

Species:

SS: DD
S: Mi, Tr, Ce, VS
A: HO, Mf, Gh, Sp, Gr
B: Ha, Fe, Hu, Dr, Vp, Dg
C: Ko, HE, Te, DE
D: Og, Op, Fo
E: Na, Mu

Backgrounds:

S: Be
A: FE, IE, Su, Ne, Fi, Ar
B: Gl, AK, As, Hu, Wz, En, Cj
C: AE, EE, AM, Wr, Wn
D: VM, Sk, Mo
E: CK
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 12:35

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Why is monk bad? It's just another melee start, you don't even have to choose uc. Also, why is gladiator worse than fighter? You get 3 nets, and both are similar melee backgrounds.

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 12:36

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Monk should be in B
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 14:50

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Siegurt wrote:(I'm not sure why Felid aren't on the "weak races" list by that logic, although they do get extra lives which offsets the fragility somewhat)
they're very fast
arandomperson12 wrote:Why is monk bad? It's just another melee start, you don't even have to choose uc. Also, why is gladiator worse than fighter? You get 3 nets, and both are similar melee backgrounds.
monk has significantly worse weapon to start. and shield is a nicer benefit than nets to start imo, makes most earlygame threats so much less dangerous.
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 14:55

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Monk starts with no tricks and it can be a lot of floors before the background's gimmick does anything. That is bad.
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Barkeep

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 17:59

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Gcg's list is basically what mine would be, except I would bump draconian to A and promote EE one tier. (Imo AK is also right at B+/A- in those tiers but I might be biased by what I like, as it is one of my favorite backgrounds.)

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 21:20

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

When you guys said DD was S tier you made it sound like they were fun, first time playing DD and I haven't died yet but boy managing this shit is annoying. If I don't win this first time il kill myself

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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Sunday, 25th September 2016, 21:21

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

yeah there's a reason no one plays DD even though they're amazing

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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 05:02

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

I don't play them often because the games are all the same and very easy, not because they're annoying to play. Not resting or taking significant damage is good.
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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 05:04

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

goodcoolguy wrote:I don't play them often because the games are all the same and very easy, not because they're annoying to play. Not resting or taking significant damage is good.


I'm getting my first rune and trog only gave me one gift, that's how much I have been spamming trogs hand lol
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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 05:13

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Yeah, I don't like DDBe even though it is the strongest combo in the game. It has to be Makhleb for a tolerable DD game in my experience.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 05:44

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

and into wrote:Would you mind elaborating on why you'd list EE and AE as weak backgrounds? I find that surprising to be honest.


Sure, they have no good multitarget attacks (lightning bolt never hits in the early-midgame and LRD has a triple AC check and tends to hit at most 3 targets, both are noisier than fireball) and IE, FE, Su are vastly superior.

The only real thing AE has going for it is Swiftness, and I don't think .2 move helps you escape from any important monsters in early D (except worker ants, barely) unless you are sufficiently close to the stairs. If you have to use it to bail on a fight with a speed-10 non-ranged monster, you are straight up playing bad 99% of the time. Speed-10 non-ranged monsters should basically be treated as nonexistent past D:2-3, almost all deaths to such monsters are deaths you could have avoided by running upstairs several turns ago. EE at least has sandblast + stones. It is actually not that bad in the early game, but in my experience EE starts to struggle in early-mid compared to IE/FE.

On a related note, this is why Mi, Tr, and DD are better than Ce and Sp, for example. The only existent monsters for Ce and Sp in the early game are basically orc priests, centaurs, and bees. Mi, Tr, and DD can power through a bad situation with these enemies when teleport has not spawned, whereas Ce and Sp might die due to crap defense or low health. Almost all enemies that can outspeed and kill Ce or Sp, a Mi/Tr/DD can just bash to death.

Also I should have put Wr in the Weak group and Su in Good. Most of the Weak backgrounds are not that bad except for CK, AM, VM, which are really bad. They just aren't as good as En, Cj, As, etc.
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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 15:01

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

No character with meph cloud is bottom tier.

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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 16:15

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Most of what determines the bottom tier happens before it's even possible to get meph.
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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 16:17

Character difficulty tier list?

goodcoolguy wrote:Most of what determines the bottom tier happens before it's even possible to get meph.


Ooo, didn't that come back... STIIINGS!
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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 17:14

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Well the thing about DD is
KoboldLord wrote:deep dwarf which gets moved to the top of the list because it is actually playing a completely different game than standard Crawl

it really *is* playing a completely different game. The fast species are kind of doing this, but less so — the same things will keep you alive when you're fast, they just work somewhat better.

But playing DD will give you habits that don't transition very well to the rest of the game's species.
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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 17:16

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

njvack wrote:Well the thing about DD is
KoboldLord wrote:deep dwarf which gets moved to the top of the list because it is actually playing a completely different game than standard Crawl

it really *is* playing a completely different game. The fast species are kind of doing this, but less so — the same things will keep you alive when you're fast, they just work somewhat better.

But playing DD will give you habits that don't transition very well to the rest of the game's species.


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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 17:56

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

goodcoolguy wrote:Most of what determines the bottom tier happens before it's even possible to get meph.

  Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1-50-g88ac8fd (webtiles) character file.

reptisaurus the Stinger (Human Venom Mage)          Turns: 1769, Time: 00:02:45

Health: 24/24      AC:  2    Str:  8    XL:     3   Next: 27%
Magic:  0/6        EV: 12    Int: 16    God:   
Gold:   41         SH:  0    Dex: 13    Spells: 3 memorised, 0 levels left

rFire  . . .      SeeInvis .    e - +0 whip
rCold  . . .      Gourm    .    a - +0 robe
rNeg   . . .      Faith    .    (no shield)
rPois  .          Spirit   .    (no helmet)
rElec  .          Dismiss  .    (no cloak)
rCorr  .          Reflect  .    (no gloves)
SustAt .          Harm     .    (no boots)
MR     .....                    (no amulet)
Stlth  ++........               (no ring)
                                (no ring)

@: very slightly contaminated, not resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: no striking features
a: no special abilities


You are on level 1 of the Dungeon.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 1 of its levels.

You have collected 41 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand Weapons
 e - a +0 whip (weapon)
Armour
 a - a +0 robe (worn)
Potions
 d - a fuming golden potion
Books
 b - a Young Poisoner's Handbook   
   
    Spells                             Type                      Level
    a - Sting                        Conjuration/Poison            1
    b - Cure Poison                  Poison                        2
    c - Mephitic Cloud               Conjuration/Poison/Air        3
    d - Olgreb's Toxic Radiance      Poison                        4
    e - Venom Bolt                   Conjuration/Poison            5
Comestibles
 c - 3 chunks of flesh
 f - a slice of pizza
 g - a beef jerky
 h - a meat ration


   Skills:
 * Level 0.2 Fighting
 - Level 2.0 Dodging
 - Level 2.0 Stealth
 + Level 2.4 Spellcasting
 * Level 0.8 Conjurations
 - Level 4.4 Poison Magic


You cannot memorise any spells.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sting                 Conj/Pois      ##..         10%         1    #......
b - Cure Poison           Pois           ###.......   6%          2    ###....
c - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #.......     34%         3    ###....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (1/15)           

Altars:

Message History

You hit the goblin.
You kill the goblin!
A dart slug comes into view.
Casting: Sting
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Sting
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - dart slug
Aim: a dart slug (clinging, hasn't noticed you)
You miscast Sting. Nothing appears to happen.
The dart slug launches a dart at you.
The slug dart hits you!
You see here a giant gecko skeleton.
Casting: Sting
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Sting
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - goblin
Aim: a goblin, wearing a runed garnet ring
The sting hits the goblin. The goblin is poisoned.
The goblin is moderately wounded.
Char dumped successfully.

     #..#    #..#
     #..#    #..#
     #.. ### #..#
         ... ...#
         ......##
         #.#####
         #[#
         #.#######      ###
         #@##....##     #..
         #.##.#...#######..
  ########g##..............
#.#...........#...###.###..
#.#.###.#####.#.......# #..
#. #.##÷#####.#...###.###..
#.###.........##### #......
#..#......#####     ###.#..
#.........#          ##.#..


You can see a goblin.

Vanquished Creatures
  An ooze (D:1)
  3 dart slugs (D:1)
  A giant gecko (D:1)
  A giant cockroach (D:1)
  A goblin (D:1)
  2 hobgoblins (D:1)
  A kobold (D:1)
  A ball python (D:1)
  3 bats (D:1)
  A giant newt (D:1)
  3 rats (D:1)
18 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | reptisaurus the Human Venom Mage began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3
   685 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 19/19 MP: 0/5
   691 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Cure Poison
  1505 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/24 MP: 0/6
  1513 | D:1      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud

Action                   || total
-------------------------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           ||    23
       Whip              ||     2
 Cast: Sting             ||    30
  Eat: Bread ration      ||     1
Armor: Robe              ||     8
Dodge: Dodged            ||    21


My human venom mage has meph at 34%, and he's not even done with d:1.

(And it was a fairly tough d:1! No jackal packs but around-the-corner-into-four-different-monsters a couple times.)

Although I guess if he had died that would be a terrible waste of two minutes and 30 seconds.

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Post Monday, 26th September 2016, 18:58

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

A lot to unpack there.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 14:26

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

CypherZel wrote:
njvack wrote:But playing DD will give you habits that don't transition very well to the rest of the game's species.


Like?

* If you get in over your head, it's fine because you have a healstick and damage shaving to bail you out
* There are like three gods, the other ones don't exist, definitely wait for mak, ely, trog unless you already have vamp draining (and really, even then)
* If you have heal-on-kills or vamp, wade in and kill the dudes, it'll be fine; if it isn't, see the first point
* Otherwise, never ever take damage if you can avoid it no matter how tedious this may be; you can train Evo/Invo/Spellcasting to get MP for more healing charges even if you don't care about the skill otherwise

I don't hate DD like a lot of tavern-goers (and I think their presence in Crawl is on balance a good thing) but they are probably playing the most different game of any species.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 14:29

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

njvack wrote:
CypherZel wrote:
njvack wrote:But playing DD will give you habits that don't transition very well to the rest of the game's species.


Like?

* If you get in over your head, it's fine because you have a healstick and damage shaving to bail you out
* There are like three gods, the other ones don't exist, definitely wait for mak, ely, trog unless you already have vamp draining (and really, even then)
* If you have heal-on-kills or vamp, wade in and kill the dudes, it'll be fine; if it isn't, see the first point
* Otherwise, never ever take damage if you can avoid it no matter how tedious this may be; you can train Evo/Invo/Spellcasting to get MP for more healing charges even if you don't care about the skill otherwise

I don't hate DD like a lot of tavern-goers (and I think their presence in Crawl is on balance a good thing) but they are probably playing the most different game of any species.


It's my first and probably last (unless if I finish Greater player and I feel like doing it again but all CK) that will play them so I don't think I will gain habits

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 16:15

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

njvack wrote:* There are like three gods, the other ones don't exist, definitely wait for mak, ely, trog unless you already have vamp draining (and really, even then)
* Otherwise, never ever take damage if you can avoid it no matter how tedious this may be
These are both good habits though
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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 17:10

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

speaking from purely optimal viewpoint I don't think "wait for these gods over others" makes sense for normal species when "these gods" does not include yred, oka, fedhas

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 21:57

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Fucking died in zot, have to play DD again. 3 orbs at the same time, 6 orbs in total and that was just one lung. Got the shitty mute that makes you spend mana for evokes. The cute mute nerf is pretty serious, got 2 whole cure mutes that game.

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Post Tuesday, 27th September 2016, 22:54

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

On the one hand, it's impressive that you got so far without vamp. On the other hand, you should have used best available vamp weapon.

Also, don't invoke zerk in zot.

Also, use your spider bags and elemental evokers. If box of beasts dropped, you should carry it.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Cy ... 202646.txt
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Post Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 02:57

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

CypherZel wrote:Fucking died in zot, have to play DD again. 3 orbs at the same time, 6 orbs in total and that was just one lung. Got the shitty mute that makes you spend mana for evokes. The cute mute nerf is pretty serious, got 2 whole cure mutes that game.

Just do a DDGl of Makhleb next time.
remove food

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Post Wednesday, 28th September 2016, 05:12

Re: Character difficulty tier list?

Rast wrote:On the one hand, it's impressive that you got so far without vamp. On the other hand, you should have used best available vamp weapon.

Also, don't invoke zerk in zot.

Also, use your spider bags and elemental evokers. If box of beasts dropped, you should carry it.

http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/Cy ... 202646.txt


There actually wasn't one sadly, unless I missed it. I pretty much spammed trogs hand for Hp and by making that choice I had to use whatever I found in the dungeon as a weapon. Found the axe early on and decided to make it my main since at max level it's only slightly less powerful as a exec axe. Never going to play DDBe again haha
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