all before wrote:faded altars wouldn't be as terrible if there were no chance of getting a god that actively made it more difficult for you to win (xom, chei, qaz).
I strongly disagree, especially for Chei and Qaz (less so Xom, only because chaos knights exist). I think the fun of Ecumenical Altars is partly trying to adapt to whatever the game gives you, even if it's clearly suboptimal. And I think adapting to Chei or Qaz is interesting.
Heck, I dislike getting Trog from an Ecumenical altar way more than getting Chei, Qaz, or even Xom. Because if I get Trog, there's no real interesting adaptation. Any character who gets Trog from an Ecumenical altar either abandons him or plays like a berserker, whether they're a MiGl or a DEFE. The only difference is whether they play like a good berserker, a regular berserker, or a crappy berserker.
But getting most other gods is interesting. If it's a bad god, or one that doesn't have obvious synergy with my character so far, then it makes me think about how I'm going to play that character. After all, if the Ecumenical Altar never gives you a god you wouldn't take voluntarily, what's the point?
Obviously, in this case, I'm looking at it from the standpoint of Ecumenical Altars being fun/interesting, not useful, but I think that's the standpoint they should be looked at from. I think trying to make Ecumenical Altars good is a lost cause. Not that I don't think it's possible (we can use the thought experiment dpeg brings up sometimes and ask "Is there a number that would make them strong?" to easily conclude that yes, if they gave 200 piety they'd be strong, so it's obviously possible), or that I think they shouldn't be buffed (I think making them give ** piety sounds good), but that I think they simply work better as a fun feature for people who like the gambling and/or adaptation they create than as a serious feature where it's sometimes optimal to chose them. I don't think there's anything wrong with them not being optimal, I think they're serving a clear purpose already as something some people enjoy.