Remove the ability to wield useless items


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 13:00

Remove the ability to wield useless items

Allowing the player to equip, for example, a scroll or potion or food ration, has no benefit (correct me if I'm wrong here) and has a slight drawback - players (me) might accidentally waste a turn (as I just did in Tartarus:7 with a Tzitzimitl continuously casting dispel undead on me) by accidentally equipping a useless item (my disc of storms).

Fix pls.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 13:08

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

But.. but.. what about, Breadswinging!
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ydeve

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 13:44

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

swinging a potion of curing can save you from barely lethal poison.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 20:00

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

dynast wrote:swinging a potion of curing can save you from barely lethal poison.


Wouldnt you just drink it in that case?

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 20:21

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

That uses it up!

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 20:23

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

dynast wrote:swinging a potion of curing can save you from barely lethal poison.

FR apply poisoning damage before regen, so that the opposite is true

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 20:41

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Ok guys thanks for the added support. It is now important than ever to forbid wielding such things as potions and bread, to eliminate an extremely spoilery and niche mechanic based on abusing the game engine.

Does anyone else have more evidence they would like to throw in to help my feature get implemented?

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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 6th August 2016, 07:34

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

It's an easy way to waste valuable time if you're prone to key mistakes as I am. Would support this.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 05:11

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Now that you can't wield the legendary snozzcumber upon ascension, the ability to wield non-weapons is pointless unless you engage in exploiting the ratio of turns spent to auts waited for the purposes of regenerating health in turncount speedrun situations (and if the ability to wield useless items is not removed, swinging them should spend exactly as many auts as waiting normally would).
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Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 11:38

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Removing the ability to wield random items is good, but it doesn't prevent swinging slowly to get long turns. You just need to carry and swap to an untrained slow weapon, rather than swapping to the bread etc that you were already carrying.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 16:07

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Partial solution: make swinging a weapon at an empty square always take only a short time.
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 20:38

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Yeah the problem is in the game engine the issue here is mostly:
Do you continue making everything wieldable even though it is rarely a benefit and sometimes a malus.
Some effects:
It will be a bit harder to break a part of the intensions of the games engine.
Ui will go up, since for the majority of players (accidently) wielding anything not intended to be wielded is useless.
Adress the concept of using wielded items as resource.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 20:42

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

A game that warns you when trying to cast dangerous spells, doesn't allow you to fall into deep water when confused, warns you when risking to damage allies or yourself should also at least warn you before equipping bread, rather than when trying to hit someone with it.

If you are into silliness, you can have the bread absorb water elementals, but it feels like a spoilery thing to me.
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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 22:25

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Sprucery wrote:Partial solution: make swinging a weapon at an empty square always take only a short time.
This was actually how Crawl worked for a long time. It caused more problems than it prevented.
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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 7th August 2016, 22:53

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

duvessa wrote:
Sprucery wrote:Partial solution: make swinging a weapon at an empty square always take only a short time.
This was actually how Crawl worked for a long time. It caused more problems than it prevented.


Yeah, I do that all the time to figure out my attack speed without doing math.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 8th August 2016, 06:52

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Reptisaurus wrote:Yeah, I do that all the time to figure out my attack speed without doing math.

Well, the current attack speed could just be shown in xv.
...MiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 8th August 2016, 09:50

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Okay, even if removing wielding random items won't remove the essence of breadswinging (i.e. the aforementioned use of an unskilled weapon), it's still a strict gain. As people have said, it simplifies the UI and reduces potential confusion about what's usable as a melee weapon, and whether any non-weapon items have any special effects (think NetHack's cockatrice corpses - it's not unprecedented).

Technically, removing useless item-wielding makes the tactic of breadswinging (or rather, great sword-swinging) marginally more tedious/difficult, but that is absolutely not a reason to keep it. I doubt there's anyone who would argue that uselessly swinging to decrease "turns" spent regenerating is a good thing, just that removing it poses all sorts of problems.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 14:40

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

There is another way to get rid of the breadswinging. If the players have a convenient method of restoring HP/MP that is more efficient than breadswinging, they will stop using this spoilery technique.

I suggest to add a new status effect called Rest that kicks in after 5 turns of inactivity and boosts the HP/MP regeneration rate. Doing an action, taking damage, etc. cancels this effect. The boost is a half of what the corresponding amulets provide or something like that.

The idea is that a resting character isn't just standing still, but actively treating their wounds or meditating.

Pros:
  • players get the benefits of breadswinging without actual breadswinging;
  • the fun is preserved: breadstubbing with the boots of the assassin is still possible;
  • a UI indication for resting.
Con:
  • it is a buff to all characters that can regenerate HP/MP.

Also, IIRC, in Angband resting doubles the rate of HP/MP regeneration.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 16:32

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Would it be too radical to remove normal HP regen from all non-resting actions?
Maybe it would - your char can even repair his equipment (from corrosion) on the go!
(but if it were removed then it could be buffed to e.g. 1 HP/turn, independent of max HP)
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2016, 17:04

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Would it be too radical to remove normal HP regen from all non-resting actions?
Maybe it would - your char can even repair his equipment (from corrosion) on the go!
(but if it were removed then it could be buffed to e.g. 1 HP/turn, independent of max HP)

This change is interesting to think about as it has several knock-on effects. It would slightly discourage the current pattern of retreating to a safe spot to rest, and instead slightly encourage standing still (but closer to danger) to rest. It would incentivize training stealth, although maybe not that much. It would also end up being a modest nerf to characters with faster HP regeneration (trolls, VS, vampires in the "alive" state, probably others) in that they wouldn't get to enjoy these benefits while traveling or in battle.

Probably the most important effect would be on speedrunners, who would forever curse the dev responsible for removing the ability to regen-on-the-go AND their beloved breadswinging all in one commit.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 03:41

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

elmdor wrote:
HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Would it be too radical to remove normal HP regen from all non-resting actions?
Maybe it would - your char can even repair his equipment (from corrosion) on the go!
(but if it were removed then it could be buffed to e.g. 1 HP/turn, independent of max HP)

This change is interesting to think about as it has several knock-on effects. It would slightly discourage the current pattern of retreating to a safe spot to rest, and instead slightly encourage standing still (but closer to danger) to rest. It would incentivize training stealth, although maybe not that much. It would also end up being a modest nerf to characters with faster HP regeneration (trolls, VS, vampires in the "alive" state, probably others) in that they wouldn't get to enjoy these benefits while traveling or in battle.

Probably the most important effect would be on speedrunners, who would forever curse the dev responsible for removing the ability to regen-on-the-go AND their beloved breadswinging all in one commit.


Damn, that's interesting.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 07:02

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

elmdor wrote:
HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Would it be too radical to remove normal HP regen from all non-resting actions?
Maybe it would - your char can even repair his equipment (from corrosion) on the go!
(but if it were removed then it could be buffed to e.g. 1 HP/turn, independent of max HP)

This change is interesting to think about as it has several knock-on effects. It would slightly discourage the current pattern of retreating to a safe spot to rest, and instead slightly encourage standing still (but closer to danger) to rest. It would incentivize training stealth, although maybe not that much. It would also end up being a modest nerf to characters with faster HP regeneration (trolls, VS, vampires in the "alive" state, probably others) in that they wouldn't get to enjoy these benefits while traveling or in battle.

Probably the most important effect would be on speedrunners, who would forever curse the dev responsible for removing the ability to regen-on-the-go AND their beloved breadswinging all in one commit.


This would encourage an extremely annoying-but-optimal strategy of blink-regen-blink-regen with melee-only monsters. Don't forget that for many characters, blinks are practically unlimited. Moreover, it would not remove kiting for fast species like Sp and Ce, just make it a million times more tedious: run away, stop to regen, run away, etc.

Also, it's not a modest nerf to species with fast HP regen, it's a huge one. "I can get back a good chunk of my HP in a fight" is orders of magnitude better than "I get interrupted by monsters while not fully healed less often."

Lastly, consider what this does: it effectively makes healing an active ability during fights. If there was an active ability that was always available, and quite often useful, I think the first thing most players would want is for the developers to turn it into some sort of a passive ability, or to reduce the need to use it all the time: see the recent changes to Sif's channeling.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 13:34

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

What characters have practically unlimited blinks? Especially melee characters?

Either way, although I think you exaggerate a bit, you still have a point about the blink-regen thing.

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 22:39

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Yeah I should have been clearer: I meant that blinks don't cost any strategic resources. Even if you're tactically limited in how many blinks you can do per fight, it's still optimal to do it until you run out of MP if you're not a blaster-type. Plus, if MP regen stays, then it becomes optimal to blink any time you have 2MP.

And lots of melee characters will pick up blink as a support spell, and not need the MP for much else. Not to mention evokable blink from randarts.

Spider Stomper

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 23:37

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Could regen be applied on standing still or moving, but nothing else? Forcing 5 to heal sounds obnoxious anyway, I like to just start moving again if I'm at 68/70 or something.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 11th August 2016, 23:49

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

how about regen applies to all actions, so I don't have to annoyingly micromanage what I do based around it all the time
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Post Sunday, 14th August 2016, 00:47

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

elmdor wrote:Probably the most important effect would be on speedrunners, who would forever curse the dev responsible for removing the ability to regen-on-the-go AND their beloved breadswinging all in one commit.
I'd make waiting not count towards turncount while at it.

ion_frigate wrote:This would encourage an extremely annoying-but-optimal strategy of blink-regen-blink-regen with melee-only monsters. Don't forget that for many characters, blinks are practically unlimited. Moreover, it would not remove kiting for fast species like Sp and Ce, just make it a million times more tedious: run away, stop to regen, run away, etc.

Also, it's not a modest nerf to species with fast HP regen, it's a huge one. "I can get back a good chunk of my HP in a fight" is orders of magnitude better than "I get interrupted by monsters while not fully healed less often."

Lastly, consider what this does: it effectively makes healing an active ability during fights. If there was an active ability that was always available, and quite often useful, I think the first thing most players would want is for the developers to turn it into some sort of a passive ability, or to reduce the need to use it all the time: see the recent changes to Sif's channeling.


The blink-to-regen optimal tactic is overblown. It can be good to blink repeatedly because you have a strong ranged attacked and the monster has a strong melee attack. Getting more attacks in is really good in that case. Getting a couple health points is very poor returns on a blink. It will be outweighed by randomly landing right next to the monster, and getting hit. OK, you can get rid of that risk by leading the monster through a twisted tunnel before blinking, but my point is that having blink would not be like getting guardian spirit, and blink-to-regen would definitely not be an "any time" kind of optimal. And why bring Sp/Ce into this? Sp/Ce kiting is strong not because of regen, it's strong because you can indefinitely attack monsters that can't attack you back. Nothing to do with regen. (Being able to out-regen monsters is a valid concern with various solutions.)

I don't think trolls are important to discuss since the basic (eg human) case has not been examined. Trolls could have a "you can heal without resting" mutation, instead.

wow, simply waiting amounts to an active ability now?

Doesnt wrote:Forcing 5 to heal sounds obnoxious

really? anybody else feel like that? even with 'o' autoresting first?

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2016, 16:52

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
Doesnt wrote:Forcing 5 to heal sounds obnoxious

really? anybody else feel like that? even with 'o' autoresting first?

Yes, actually. Not being able to control how long I rest for seems like it'd be pretty annoying.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2016, 17:04

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

i don't get it... why would you not want to rest at least until you are fully healed, in a system where your natural regen happens only while you are resting? And nobody has mentioned any taking away of "control" up until your post here, (I presume that you could press "." to get 1 HP at any time,) so I don't know what you're talking about.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 14th August 2016, 17:43

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

But we all still agree that my proposal is sound and favored by the gods

Right?

Right?

Spider Stomper

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:21

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Wielding a potion **should** do something. Think of Nethack where the carafes are always getting broken over your head. Though I suppose before long you'd get tired of kobold peltasts throwing potions of mutation at you to spoil your bucktrollish good looks.

ELI5: why can't swinging a potion or a loaf of bread simply take the same time as resting?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 19:37

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:i don't get it... why would you not want to rest at least until you are fully healed, in a system where your natural regen happens only while you are resting?
piety decay

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 22nd August 2016, 04:30

Re: Remove the ability to wield useless items

Chicken wrote:Wielding a potion **should** do something. Think of Nethack where the carafes are always getting broken over your head. Though I suppose before long you'd get tired of kobold peltasts throwing potions of mutation at you to spoil your bucktrollish good looks.

ELI5: why can't swinging a potion or a loaf of bread simply take the same time as resting?

That wouldn't really fix the breadswinging problem because then players would just carry a scythe or something around for the same purpose.

You'd need to reduce all weapon base delays to 1.0 or below.
Or just kill the "number of player actions" scoring system and base it on auts instead (rip Chei speedruns).

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