Races I stilll need to win


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Post Saturday, 4th June 2016, 23:41

Races I stilll need to win

The following are races that I still need to win. Several I have made progress on but have had trouble getting past two runes. any advice on one or all on a good combo/god/strategy would be helpful.

Troll - Be- managed two runes but cannot seem to make it past depths without biting it. I tend to go unarmed combat as it seems better than a weapon for them.

Naga - Have tried a few fighter and mage backgrounds. Couple different gods. Just cannot seem to get one started. I think I made it to lair on a monk with chei once.

Formicid - Uh. I'm guessing AK is good start? Go armour/big weapon/big shield?

Vine Stalker - Berserker? Short blades? Mage? No clue whats a good approach for this.

Demigod - Playing with skalds/conjurers. Not sure if a pure melee start is easier to win or not?

Vampire - Doesn't even sound fun. Probably hexer and just bear through it? Though the thought of a fighter with a vampiric battle axe would be cool if I could manage to get one.

Felid - Had a Be snag two runes but I couldn't break into the depths. Also had a few Enchanters witht he same problem.

Octopode - Hard to get going it seems. I imagine they could be very strong but getting there seems to be rough.

Again, any advice on any or all of these would be appreciated. I'm willing to try any backgrounds and gods. I'm not tied into any one playstyle for any of them.

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 03:19

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Berserker or Ice elementalist is going to be the strongest start for basically every race. If you're dying with runes, your problem is probably tactical and not strategic, unless your skilling is very bad. That means you can win with whatever you're already playing, just take more care about evaluating enemy threat levels, use consumables, lure harder, etc.

Troll - always go unarmed combat. Very strong species, so you can do whatever you want after that. Train some throwing for large rocks.
Naga - don't go chei. Naga is very weak, go for a powerful start like NaBe or NaIE and choose a strong god like trog,fedhas,kiku.
Formicid - also kind of bad due to the no tele/no haste. If you're dying in mid-late game you can try picking a god that lets you move with abilities like lugonu or ru. Remember to stay near diggable walls when possible, and dig killholes for stuff.
Vine Stalker - You want to abuse their bite aux attack. VsBe is strong, shortblades is generally a weak weapon class but VS can pull it off better than most species imo.
Demigod - Better with a casting background. Skald sucks, pick conjurer or an elementalist, or maybe necromancer.
Vampire - Their food clock is dumb and annoying but they're not bad. A magic start of kiku shouldn't be too hard. Keep your blood level low enough to escape stuff with batform early on.
Felid - If you're dying in depths on a felid try not doing depths, by diving past most of it. It's usually not hard to do if you've got enough stealth. This is also my advice for doing zot on Felid.
Octopode - Very bad for most of the game, try OpIE. You're going to have a bad time unless you find a way to offset their miserable ac. Some people like OpTM, but I think it's pretty awful.

Full disclosure: I haven't won most of the combos I'm recommending (but I have won every species).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 04:26

Re: Races I stilll need to win

I've won all the combos you're recommending and I thanked your post so you're good

FoEE is good for cheesing out a Fo win with minimal effort (still takes some effort because you're Fo but less than other backgrounds except maybe IE and Be)

Short blades are better with VS than they are with other species, but they're still worse than other weapon classes. Just pick a real weapon class.

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 06:25

Re: Races I stilll need to win

OpFE plays pretty much like any other FE if you like casters.

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 07:20

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Hellmonk's recommendations are really good, just a few additions:

Troll: pick hunter for large rocks, that's very good. Or pick a book background that has good cheap utility spells.
Vampire: I won with a berserker, and it was good. Stay alive, and you can berserk. And in branches where you want rPois, stay hungry.
Vine Stalker: listen to Minmay (Duvessa), don't go short blades. And if you are a berserker, try not to use antimagic weapons, they weaken your character (reduce the MP pool).
Demigod: the best are IE and FE. And don't try to play a "pure blaster mage", that isn't what those backgrouds are for. Pick a weapon and use it.
Octopode and felid: try conjurers. Staying away from monsters is good when you have no AC.

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 07:56

Re: Races I stilll need to win

For once I can't recommend a Mummy Wizard...so I'm going to recommend your vampire be a vampire wizard of sif muna. Go for all the Air spells she'll give you. You can abuse Sif's channeling almost as well as mummies can.

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Post Sunday, 5th June 2016, 14:25

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Good advice so far.

When you have trouble with some (weaker) races:
Get stealth if apt. is good.
At *** I'm having most of the time the option whether I want to pick a fight or retreat when something enters LOS.
It helps a lot.

You didn't mention how many runes you want to get ?
Here are links to 15-runes wins. (None of them was a fast game. )

Formicid:
if extended consider switching to ZIN. Excellent synergy with Fo since Sanctuary gives an escape option. Vitalization at high Invo will give you a stat boost (up to +9 for each at 27) which will let you cast high-level spells much easier.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 023722.txt

Naga:
Use spit a lot, train stealth and consider a trident as a weapon. There are several monster which use polearms (or are too fast) and will attack you from a distance.
I went with the first shield I found and made training shields to 15 (large shield) a priority. Skald is not a bad background for Naga imo with polearms (and shield).
You can go Chei (I did) but until you get to high piety it is a game of concentration and careful consideration where to move. Don't use autoexplore :D
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 204945.txt

Troll:
Unarmed combat, throwing and Portal projectile (Warper as a start) is imo a good combo.
Portal projectile will let you pick out one of these nasty summoners/smiters in the background later in the game. You don't need large rocks for them, even Tomahawks with fighting/throwing is ok.
Again: a shield (large) is very useful since your other defences will most likely suck for some time.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 050254.txt

Demigod:
Went with Fighter. Goal for extended was to get Tornado+CBlink which means +int on level-ups most of the time. This is the High-Defence-Tornado-built I like the most :)
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 181443.txt

Vampire: stabber for some time. EDIT: Went with Kiku Corpses+Simulacrum and Haunt for Extended.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 191712.txt

Vinestalker: cannot give good advice. A race I don't really understand :)
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 184559.txt

Felid: Cj. Any blaster background is good. Stealth helps a lot especially with high speed.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 205117.txt

Octopode: Same as Felid except that you're not fast :D
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Nebuk ... 173728.txt

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 6th June 2016, 00:51

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Agreed that most all of the advice here is pretty accurate, one thing I do want to mention is that for trolls, throwing tomahawks isn't as good as it used to be now that throwing works like a weapon skill and not unarmed. They're still good, and you should learn throwing, but you'll want to throw large rocks when possible. Keep in mind you need pretty high throwing skill to throw a large rock at min delay (I think it's around 22 or something? Don't remember). You can still throw them at less than min delay of course, just be careful if you're taking too many hits.
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Post Wednesday, 8th June 2016, 21:08

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Nebukadnezar wrote:You can go Chei (I did) but until you get to high piety it is a game of concentration and careful consideration where to move. Don't use autoexplore :D
It is ok to use autoexplore with Chei. With manual explore you can accidentally make double move towards an monster because of fat/fast fingres.
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Post Sunday, 12th June 2016, 12:15

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Vampire is one if my favorites, and I've won a good handful of 3-, 4-, and 5-rune games.

The recipe is:

Sif Muna. Channeling is "free", and you should use the heck out of it, especially by sleeping/confusing a monster at a chokepoint to pause your fight. Give the rest of the crowd the finger, channel up, stab the blocking monster, and deal with the rest of them.

Sif will pretty reliably give you what you need for the mid game: Invisibility, Passage of G, Mana Viper, and then Discord.

(You know how to use PoG on a stabber, right?)

So that's your two Lair runes.

Now, third rune. Mana Vipers kick a lot of ass, but you only get two at a time, and that won't get you through V:5 or an unlucky Abyss: 3.
Not a problem. You've been training Summoning to strengthen those MVs, so Sif has given you a couple Summoning books. Horrible Things!

Discord and Summon Horrible Things take care of the rest of the game. V:5, Slime:6, Zot:5, whatever. SHT is sufficient.

There you go. 5 runes.

How to do the extended game? That, I don't know. In Hell and Pan everything is awake and tormenting. That's trouble for vampires. The first five runes, though, quite achievable.

Good luck!

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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 14:27

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Down to Octopode and Felid. A few attempts at both. Not fun. Ill try the conjurer approach. Is this better than an enchanter? Also are there any gods that might make it a lot easier to handle the dungeon? Not necessarily enchanter/conjurer either. Like Ely or Fedhas?
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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 14:43

Re: Races I stilll need to win

FeMo^kiku. learn animate dead. abuse receive corpse. learn haste, statue form, and dragon form. game end

http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8080/morgue/rad ... 043823.txt

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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 14:51

Re: Races I stilll need to win

ajon wrote:Down to Octopode and Felid. A few attempts at both. Not fun. Ill try the conjurer approach. Is this better than an enchanter? Also are there any gods that might make it a lot easier to handle the dungeon? Not necessarily enchanter/conjurer either. Like Ely or Fedhas?

Like with most species, Be is strong in the early dungeon. Otherwise, book starts are pretty good. FeEn is quite strong with the huge aptitude and kiting speed. Ne is strong for both species. Elementalists work well with Op. Su is also a good background for squishy species because you can avoid direct enemy contact.
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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 19:40

Re: Races I stilll need to win

I treated both those species as "survive with starting book until I find statue form". Then you can become powerful.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 13:40

Re: Races I stilll need to win

FeCj, kite for days. It plays like a centaur with a bow except with even more running. Hex the monsters that are faster than you.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:09

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Vine Stalker fighter (Pick up Trog later) is very, VERY strong. The plan is to use unarmed w/ a shield. Since the bite aux activates on every strike, and unarmed has the ability to strike very fast (and with high damage once trained up) it is a very good combo, especially when berserked. I almost won the first game I played with one, but Nikolia is an asshole.

I mean with around 10-16 unarmed (You should have this around L:1) you can two-three shot Death Yak and eight headed hydras.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:14

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Why not Berserker? I dislike UC with Trog, it gives great weapons usually. Also shield XP can be wasted later depending on drops. I would play VSBe with M&F.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:49

Re: Races I stilll need to win

For the reasons I like using UC over other weapon types while playing VS:

Vine Stalkers get a level of the claws mutation (This allows them to do good damage early on when the attack delay for unarmed is nothing special), and then later when the attack delay for unarmed gets good (0.6-0.5) it synergies well with their large fangs as well as doing good damage by itself. For the most part however it's just personal preference. Plus it has a slightly better aptitude (-1 compared to 0)

For the reasons I like Fighter over Berserker:

I like choosing fighter over berserker because you have the ability to get some extra levels in Spellcasting which of course give more MP (VS has natural spirit shield) before picking up Trog (He hates it when you train magical skills). It just gives the option of adding some extra survivability without putting to much XP into it. Besides that, you get better armour and a shield, which helps early on.

As I stated earlier it is mainly just personal preference though, and what I have found to work for me.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:50

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:I like choosing fighter over berserker because you have the ability to get some extra levels in Spellcasting which of course give more MP (VS has natural spirit shield) before picking up Trog (He hates it when you train magical skills).


Wow don't do this. If you want more MP as Trog, train evocations. As an added bonus, you will get things that are actually super powerful that you can actually use.
Last edited by Arrhythmia on Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 20:51

Re: Races I stilll need to win

This sounds like a proper wiki guide.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 21:39

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Arrhythmia wrote:
Rokirem wrote:I like choosing fighter over berserker because you have the ability to get some extra levels in Spellcasting which of course give more MP (VS has natural spirit shield) before picking up Trog (He hates it when you train magical skills).


Wow don't do this. If you want more MP as Trog, train evocations. As an added bonus, you will get things that are actually super powerful that you can actually use.


I'm not talking about sinking 27 levels into Spellcasting. I am talking about getting it to around 3-4 early on for a little bit of extra MP before switching to Trog.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 21:40

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
Rokirem wrote:I like choosing fighter over berserker because you have the ability to get some extra levels in Spellcasting which of course give more MP (VS has natural spirit shield) before picking up Trog (He hates it when you train magical skills).


Wow don't do this. If you want more MP as Trog, train evocations. As an added bonus, you will get things that are actually super powerful that you can actually use.


I'm not talking about sinking 27 levels into Spellcasting. I am talking about getting it to around 3-4 early on for a little bit of extra MP before switching to Trog.


Yes, and it's a complete waste of XP.

e: putting those 3-4 levels worth of XP into fighting, weapon skill, armour, dodging, shields if you have a shield, or even freakin' stealth would be more worthwhile.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 21:51

Re: Races I stilll need to win

It's not a complete waste of XP. Maybe compared to getting more fighting or (Insert weapon/armour skill) it is not as valuable, but it is not a waste when you have permanent spirit shield. When you get fighting to around 10ish and your spellcasting is at 0, the amount of XP it would take to get 3-4 levels of additional fighting compared to those initial levels of spellcasting is no where near the same. I'm not saying you SHOULD put a bunch of XP into it, I just said it was another possible reason to consider going Fighter/Monk instead of Trog.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:00

Re: Races I stilll need to win

or you can, again, train Evocations which would give you more MP + better wands and other powerful items

did you know that something like 6 Evocations doubles your wands' spellpower? now you do!

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:05

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Sar wrote:or you can, again, train Evocations which would give you more MP + better wands and other powerful items

did you know that something like 6 Evocations doubles your wands' spellpower? now you do!


I know training Evocations will give you more MP+Wand Power, once again I did not deny that overall training Invocations (Not with Trog) / or Evocations is undeniably better than training Spellcasting, I just said it was another option you have when choosing Monk/Figher over Berserker if you wont to kill a couple enemies and get a couple extra points of MP.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:07

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:It's not a complete waste of XP. Maybe compared to getting more fighting or (Insert weapon/armour skill) it is not as valuable, but it is not a waste when you have permanent spirit shield. When you get fighting to around 10ish and your spellcasting is at 0, the amount of XP it would take to get 3-4 levels of additional fighting compared to those initial levels of spellcasting is no where near the same. I'm not saying you SHOULD put a bunch of XP into it, I just said it was another possible reason to consider going Fighter/Monk instead of Trog.


that would be a good point, if people reached 10 fighting before finding trog.
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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:10

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:it was another option you have when choosing Monk/Figher over Berserker if you wont to kill a couple enemies and get a couple extra points of MP

But why would you ever train Spellcasting over Evocations if you started as a VSMo/VSFi and planned to join Trog? I mean, okay, your aptitude is a little bit better... but you probably won't train any Spc after you join Trog, you would train Evo because of your spirit shield and because Evo is good anyway, I guess.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:16

Re: Races I stilll need to win

The only skill of Spellcasting/Invo/Evo that affects max MP is still whatever's highest, correct?

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:35

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Assuming you want to win and there aren't challenge conditions (e.g., streaking without repeating background), you should just start as a berserker if you want to worship Trog, because berserk from turn 1 greatly outweighs any other considerations.

Aside from that, in general I don't think it is a good idea to train any skill if the only benefit is extra MP, even on a VS. You almost certainly have something else that gives a better return on investment that you could be training instead.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:39

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Well, if Evocations only gave you extra MP (let's imagine that for a moment) I would still train it on a VS of Trog. Spirit shield is kind of good, especially when it's combined with mana vamp.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 22:53

Re: Races I stilll need to win

When I was having problems with VS, I got advice to train Evo early (right on D1-2) and it helped a lot.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 23:28

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Sandman25 wrote:When I was having problems with VS, I got advice to train Evo early (right on D1-2) and it helped a lot.


Really, that early? What background were you?

Sar wrote:Well, if Evocations only gave you extra MP (let's imagine that for a moment) I would still train it on a VS of Trog. Spirit shield is kind of good, especially when it's combined with mana vamp.


Eventually, sure. But I think you get a higher return for investing a good amount of experience in dodging, weapon skill, etc., first. As those skills become much more expensive to level, one might want extra MP just for protection on a VS.

My point is that, by the time you reach the point where it might possibly make sense to train evocations just for the MP, you almost always have evocable items that make evocations worthwhile just for the power boost to those items. Sometimes you find those evocables quite a while before you (or, at least, I) would consider training evocations just for the MP.

In either case, the extra MP just sweetens the pot, but isn't the reason I'm training evocations. At least that has been my experience.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 23:33

Re: Races I stilll need to win

and into wrote:Really, that early? What background were you? .


Gladiator as far as I remember. Some melee background for sure.

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 23:40

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Quaffing experience for VSGl. Which one would you choose? Also don't forget that the more MP you have, the more MP you can restore with bite attack.
  Code:
Health: 17/17      AC:  4    Str: 17    XL:     2   Next: 0%
Magic:  3/3        EV: 12    Int:  8    God:    No God 0 (0)

 + Level 4.2 Fighting
 + Level 6.1 Maces & Flails
 + Level 1.7 Throwing
 + Level 2.4 Dodging


  Code:
Health: 17/17      AC:  4    Str: 17    XL:     2   Next: 0%
Magic:  2/5        EV: 12    Int:  8    God:    No God 0 (0)
 + Level 3.7 Fighting
 + Level 5.4 Maces & Flails
 + Level 1.7 Throwing
 + Level 2.4 Dodging
   Level 3.1 Evocations


  Code:
Health: 15/15      AC:  4    Str: 17    XL:     2   Next: 0%
Magic:  3/3        EV: 12    Int:  8    God:    No God 0 (0)
 + Level 1.7 Fighting
 + Level 7.3 Maces & Flails
 + Level 1.7 Throwing
 + Level 2.4 Dodging

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Post Tuesday, 5th July 2016, 23:54

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Sandman25 wrote:Quaffing experience for VSGl. Which one would you choose? Also don't forget that the more MP you have, the more MP you can restore with bite attack.


Choice about quaffing !experience on D2 is rather different and a unique set of circumstances compared to, "How do I want to distribute my experience as I continue to level, go deeper, and fight progressively tougher monsters?"

I did a test to see how much MP you get from training evocations. It's like +3 MP for four levels, +4 MP for six... It doesn't seem worth it to me, but I admit I haven't tried it out in actual games for comparison, so YMMV.

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 00:24

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I stopped training Evocation really soon, it's just first few levels which are cheap and greatly help with both "HP" and "melee HP" .

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 07:22

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Shard1697 wrote:The only skill of Spellcasting/Invo/Evo that affects max MP is still whatever's highest, correct?


You get a bonus mp depending on whatever is highest among spellcasting or evo\2,invo\2
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 07:48

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Shard1697 wrote:The only skill of Spellcasting/Invo/Evo that affects max MP is still whatever's highest, correct?


Since no one has commented on this, I would like to point this out more. As far as I know, this is the case. You get more MP from training either evo or spc, which ever is higher. I would assume that both are equally effective and you will not get more MP from 10evo + 10spc. So this would make the idea of training Spc for mp as a Trog worshipper completely pointless, when you should train evo instead.

We can continue on discussing if and when it is a good idea to train evo/spc as a Vs purely for MP as spiritshield fodder. But as a Troglodyte, train Evo at some point, never Spc.

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 11:37

Re: Races I stilll need to win

MrRokkomies wrote:Since no one has commented on this, I would like to point this out more. As far as I know, this is the case. You get more MP from training either evo or spc, which ever is higher. I would assume that both are equally effective

This is wrong. Nago gave the correct factor, which is max(spc, evo/2, invo/2).
(code here)

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 12:37

Re: Races I stilll need to win

stickyfingers wrote:
MrRokkomies wrote:Since no one has commented on this, I would like to point this out more. As far as I know, this is the case. You get more MP from training either evo or spc, which ever is higher. I would assume that both are equally effective

This is wrong. Nago gave the correct factor, which is max(spc, evo/2, invo/2).
(code here)


Ok, this is good to know, thanks. Does that mean that if I first train Spc to 5 and then train Evo, the evo will not give me more MP untill it is higher than Spc?

I still would not train Spc on a Troglodyte, but knowing these mechanics is still usefull. :)

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 12:57

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:It's not a complete waste of XP.

It really is, for the obvious reason that 2 levels of evo give the same mp as 1 level of sc. And evo also gives a lot of other benefits. With trog you would typically train evo anyway because wands and evokers are powerful substitutes for some of the things you miss out on.

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Arrhythmia

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 15:47

Re: Races I stilll need to win

I'll admit I didn't think my initial comment all the way through (Forgot Evo/Invo gave MP), and probably wouldn't have wrote it if I had remembered. At the same time I still don't agree that it is a "complete waste of XP", it's too harsh. It gives you MP, therefor you still get value out of it (Yes I understand Evo is better). Anyways there is no point in discussing it further, I had just made my post to suggest a background for VS that I found works for me :d No need to clog up this thread any further

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 16:08

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Rokirem wrote:I'll admit I didn't think my initial comment all the way through (Forgot Evo/Invo gave MP), and probably wouldn't have wrote it if I had remembered. At the same time I still don't agree that it is a "complete waste of XP", it's too harsh. It gives you MP, therefor you still get value out of it (Yes I understand Evo is better). Anyways there is no point in discussing it further, I had just made my post to suggest a background for VS that I found works for me :d No need to clog up this thread any further

Specifically, it gives you a short term bonus to mp, which becomes obsolete as soon as your ev is double your spellcasting.

Whether this is worth spending any xp on (since in the long run, you get no net benefit from it) is debatable.

It is somewhat akin to training a few points for a weapon skill you know for a fact you will stop using later, but which is, in the short term, of some benefit.
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Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 20:14

Re: Races I stilll need to win

The biggest advantage of training spellcasting is that you can do since turn 1, and before knowing if you'll choose Trog, while you can't train Evo.
So as siegurt said you get a short term bonus for a negligible amount of experience (in the long run, early on is significative).
As soon as you get a not crap wand training Evo is better because the short and long term benefits are better no matter which God you choose
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2016, 21:13

Re: Races I stilll need to win

Of course one turn 1 you should usually train your primary weapon skill. And then spare XP should usually first go into fighting.

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