Monstrous Menagerie?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 02:15

Monstrous Menagerie?

So, I just played (and stupidly lost) my first summoner in a long time. One of the spells I didn't ever understand was Menagerie -- it's level 7 and summons one (or a few) monsters that are basically late-D or early Depths. Harpy packs are nice, sphinxes are OK, but these dudes don't generally tear up the level.

Constrast this to Shadow Creatures, which can summon basically whatever's troubling you at one level less. Or Summon Hydra, which has its challenges (real short duration) but is a fair bit more predictable.

Am I missing something?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 18

Joined: Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 23:17

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 04:19

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Yea I was unimpressed by MM, Mana vipers were pretty good, shadow creatures are nice, but expensive. My favorite are demons, but having them turn hostile is a bitch, generally I hoped for abjure to handle it, but sometimes I did have to run. Actually didn't get to greater demons, but I imagine it's the same as Makhlebs and those kick ass.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 05:37

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Shadow Creatures and Summon Hydra have really low durations. Monstrous Menagerie does not, and it has a separate summon cap. Also, harpy packs certainly do tear up the level. Perhaps you don't understand how batty monsters work? The faster your own actions are, the more effective harpies (both friendly and hostile) will be.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 5
nago, njvack, Sar, Tiktacy, ZoFy

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 05:46

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Have you actually tried it against enemies? Monsters are not players, and this has important effects on which monsters are good against monsters.

Harpies demolish pretty much everything.

For this message the author crate has received thanks: 3
nago, njvack, Sar
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 13:31

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

If I always (or even usually) got harpies, it would be great. But quite often it's not harpies. Even sphinxes seemed surprisingly ineffective. Manticores were not great.

Knowing that harpies are improved by hasting myself helps, even though it's weird. I think I don't actually understand how batty creatures work.

Anyhow, thanks all. I don't think I'll be rolling another summoner soon, but I'll give MM another chance if I do.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 13:43

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Looking at the code, you get sphinxes half the time if your spell power is over 60... if harpies are better than sphinxes, the spell is better at lower power?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 14:07

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

I don't know, but what you said alone is not enough to say. Harpy group > sphinx > manticore/lindwurm in general, so if the sphinxes just replace manticores/lindwurms then higher spellpower is an obvious improvement. You also get more harpies when you do get harpies at higher power.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 14:34

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

The logic is
  Code:
    if (random2(pow) > 60 && coinflip())
        type = MONS_SPHINX;
    else
        type = random_choose(MONS_HARPY, MONS_MANTICORE, MONS_LINDWURM);

    if (player_will_anger_monster(type))
        type = MONS_MANTICORE;
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1193

Joined: Friday, 16th January 2015, 20:20

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:35

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

random2(pow) gives a random integer between 0 and pow - 1, inclusive.

If pow < 62, you never get a sphinx.
If pow >= 62, you a sphinx with probability
p = (pow - 61) / pow * 1 / 2.

Your general point is correct that harpies are more likely at lower spellpower (probabilty 1/3 at pow < 62, probability (1 - p) / 3, with p from the equation above, if pow >= 62).

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 167

Joined: Friday, 23rd October 2015, 03:12

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:41

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

duvessa wrote:Perhaps you don't understand how batty monsters work? The faster your own actions are, the more effective harpies (both friendly and hostile) will be.


njvack wrote:Knowing that harpies are improved by hasting myself helps, even though it's weird.


Can anyone explain this? I thought batty just meant "moves away after hitting" and I don't see how these would follow from that.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1591

Joined: Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 18:59

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 16:44

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Ever been attacked by a caustic shrikes or harpie zombie?
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 17:38

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

When a batty monster attacks it starts moving randomly until the next player action, then resumes normal monster behaviour until its next attack. So if player actions are more frequent, batty monsters waste fewer actions on moving randomly.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
njvack, ydeve
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 17:54

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.

@duvessa: So, if you've summoned harpies and want them to killdudes most efficiently, would it be best to hang out and swap weapons over and over or something?
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1591

Joined: Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 18:59

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:02

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

njvack wrote:OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.

@duvessa: So, if you've summoned harpies and want them to killdudes most efficiently, would it be best to hang out and swap weapons over and over or something?


:lol:
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:13

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

no I am actually serious, batty monsters have always been slightly mysterious to me and I want to know if I'm getting smarter or dumber

edit: also time in Crawl is really weird; it seems normal until you really think about it and then whoah
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:19

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

I think you're correct njvack. You can study this in relative safety with some actual bats.

Also, imagining a batty hydra is quite amusing.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:42

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Yes, weapon swapping would make your harpies more effective, although it might still be a better use of turns to keep casting spells/moving/attacking/whatever. I just thought I'd mention it in case you were playing a summoner of chei or something.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
njvack
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:45

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Well, if I'm understanding things right, battiness wouldn't make a hydra more dangerous; being fast would... battiness on normal speed creatures would just make them move away from you after attacking. Which I guess would be kind of funny for hydras...

oh god a summoner of chei
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 18:49

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

njvack wrote:OK so the reason hydra zombies hit so hard is that they *aren't* batty, they're just fast and hit hard.

Just in case, you know, it wasn't obvious where the hydra came from. (As usual, it was loitering by the stairs, with intent...)

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 19:01

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Yes, the reason harpy zombies often have higher damage output than harpies is that they aren't batty.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4435

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 19:02

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

My typos know NO BOUNDS.

Yes, I meant harpy zombies.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 20:20

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Death scarab zombies/simulacra are hilariously powerful, I've had those 2v1 and I think even 1v1 greater mummies.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
nago

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6454

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 20:58

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

FR: all summons and mindless undead are batty. :)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1233

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 21:19

Re: Monstrous Menagerie?

Siegurt wrote:FR: all summons and mindless undead are batty and very fast. :)

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.