Wizard Start


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Friday, 8th January 2016, 15:50

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 08:33

Wizard Start

I find the book of minor magic really appealing with blink, rmsk, and conjure flame.

However after a few tries, it seems I hit a ceiling around XP 10/ Dungeon:10 if I don't find a really good book by then. I have a hard time to kill things.

Can you do the start of Lair with only the book of minor magic ? The open layout seems to not really help.

So I am thinking it might be wiser to start as FE anyway since Fireball will carry you a bit further (even if you have less defence)

Are they other strategies specific to wizard ? Or should I try until I am lucky ?

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 08:39

Re: Wizard Start

Try melee?

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Friday, 8th January 2016, 15:50

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:07

Re: Wizard Start

Sar wrote:Try melee?


I was tyring with a DE and focusing almost exclusively on Spellcasting + spell scholl + dodge/figthing around lvl 5.

But I might actually try to level up a weapon (+ maybe stealth) earlier.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 885

Joined: Sunday, 28th June 2015, 14:44

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:09

Re: Wizard Start

Wz doesn't have the tools to get through Lair smoothly with just the starting book, but the dungeon usually drops something that you can use.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:13

Re: Wizard Start

DEWz is really bad IMO. If you become really good at using Conjure Flame, you can get through Lair with it. Imps help too, though they were better when you could have a dozen of them at once.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 09:47

Re: Wizard Start

For Wz, Conjure Flame and Summon Imp are your main offensive tools in Lair. It's possible to get through Lair using just these, but it's much easier to learn to use a weapon, get some defenses, and then use you spells and your weapon in conjunction.

DE is a pretty difficult species, and DEWz is a particularly challenging one since it can't lean as heavily on its book as other book starts.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Friday, 8th January 2016, 15:50

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 12:06

Re: Wizard Start

Thanks for all the good advices, I think I'll try a Draconian Wizard next, it should be a bit more easy to survive.
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1785

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 13:12

Re: Wizard Start

If that doesn't work (and it absolutely can, DrWz is fine), try TrWz or OgWz or HOWz. "Wizard" is probably the most misleading background name in Crawl; it's a book of spells that can be leveraged to work with several playstyles, and it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells. You can do it, but it'll take longer and be more frustrating than if you had just started as an FE.

For this message the author archaeo has received thanks:
ZipZipskins
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 20:14

Re: Wizard Start

Train only enough magic to use conjuire flame, mephitic cloud, and summon imp at 15-20%, and no more, unless you're starting as a low-HP magic-affine race.
remove food

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8654

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 20th May 2016, 21:26

Re: Wizard Start

archaeo wrote:it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells.
frankly, this is only true if you suck at using conjure flame
just conjure flame + meph + occasional imps is easily enough to kill everything up to lair, everything in lair, and most of remaining d an orc too

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
nago, RBrandon

Halls Hopper

Posts: 66

Joined: Thursday, 24th May 2012, 14:36

Post Sunday, 22nd May 2016, 16:54

Re: Wizard Start

Mummy wizard of Sif and conjure flame on the whole map...

For this message the author Avigdore has received thanks:
Reptisaurus
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 554

Joined: Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 03:52

Post Sunday, 22nd May 2016, 21:27

Re: Wizard Start

seren wrote:
Sar wrote:Try melee?


I was tyring with a DE and focusing almost exclusively on Spellcasting + spell scholl + dodge/figthing around lvl 5.

But I might actually try to level up a weapon (+ maybe stealth) earlier.


Right. If you don't get book drops or kiku/sif/vehumet then you're a fighter with a little bit of magic as back-up. (This is not a bad thing to be!)

Try to use positioning and conjure flame as much as possible - Meph cloud is great but it is loud so you don't want to use it as your primary offense when you don't have an easy escape route.

Side question: I rarely even bother to memorize slow. Is this a huge tactical error on my part?

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 21

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd May 2016, 03:34

Post Monday, 23rd May 2016, 03:41

Re: Wizard Start

I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention SpWz yet, so I'll plug my piece in about this combination. Speed and Blink make this character really survivable early on, and Mephitic Cloud synergizes well with a spriggan's good aptitude for short blades and stealth if you don't find a good book early. I would recommend that such a character should worship either Ashenzari or Vehumet if they intend to become blaster casters since they make up for a spriggan's poor conjurations aptitude. SpWz^Kiku might also be good, but I personally haven't tried it.

As for DEWz, I really like them since I can get Firestorm online by Vaults if I worship Vehumet. It's a hard combination to start with, but they gain a lot of power very quickly if you can get a good book or Vehumet provides you a good enough spell early enough.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Tuesday, 13th October 2015, 06:02

Post Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 06:51

Re: Wizard Start

I kinda like that spell book. Using a spear or any ranged weapons works well with it.

only problem is mephitic cloud ties the other skills together nicely, but need 3 schools.

I try to work around that using high INT characters or chei. +apt to poison/fire/conj help.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 08:31

Re: Wizard Start

Lair is definitely possible with just the book of minor magic. Conjure flame is really strong and pretty much all tough enemies in lair walk right into it. That includes spiny frogs, black mambas and hydras.

It does require some experience in how monsters move to make it work well. I'd recommend spectating someone who's good at it.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Friday, 8th January 2016, 15:50

Post Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 14:43

Re: Wizard Start

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Lair is definitely possible with just the book of minor magic. Conjure flame is really strong and pretty much all tough enemies in lair walk right into it. That includes spiny frogs, black mambas and hydras.

It does require some experience in how monsters move to make it work well. I'd recommend spectating someone who's good at it.


Probably with a DEWz the worst enemy would be the blinking frogs, I am not sure what you are supposed to do, it is hard to create bottlenecks. Use Mephitic cloud as soon as you seem them to confuse them ?
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 15:02

Re: Wizard Start

Lure blink frogs to fight 1v1. Mephitic should help a lot (it'll kill their blink), but I would still not try to fight the whole pack at once.

Actually don't fight them 1v1, you have call imp.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 184

Joined: Tuesday, 4th November 2014, 07:22

Post Tuesday, 24th May 2016, 21:04

Re: Wizard Start

Slow is worth memorizing if you have the spell levels. If you haven't found another book by Lair to kills stuff with, you will want something to help you deal with/escape singular, dangerous enemies - Spiny Frogs and Black Mambas in particular are faster than you and resist your Mephetic Cloud. They also have pretty crummy MR, iirc, as does most of Lair. I also believe that delay between actions influences Conjure Flame damage.

So yeah. Memorize Slow, at least as a DE. DE has rhe INT and aptitudes to easily make good use of it, and DE also is so frail they need as many escape/control options as possible.
"This spell will have no effect right now because your brain is too dead to use."

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1601

Joined: Sunday, 14th July 2013, 16:36

Post Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 01:07

Re: Wizard Start

seren wrote:Probably with a DEWz the worst enemy would be the blinking frogs, I am not sure what you are supposed to do, it is hard to create bottlenecks. Use Mephitic cloud as soon as you seem them to confuse them ?

Blink frogs have no AC and Magic Dart never misses. It takes a lot of shots, but since blink frogs spend so much time away from you, it's not that big of a deal (especailly if you can get one in a flame cloud). And they're affected by mephitic cloud, it isn't too much trouble to escape from them.

The real trouble is when something like a spiny frog or a black mamba catches you in the open and decides to walk around your clouds instead of through.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 07:19

Re: Wizard Start

Yeah, if you end up with a mamba or spiny next to you and not in a flame that's an emergency, certainly for DE. In my experience that is almost, but not completely, avoidable. If it does happen, or better if it's about to happen, consumables need to be used.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 184

Joined: Tuesday, 4th November 2014, 07:22

Post Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 16:31

Re: Wizard Start

Oh, something worth knowing with regards to spiny frogs and mambas: they will avoid a flame cloud in the open, but if you cast it, say, three times and make a little "wall" perpendicular to their approach, they generally dive in and burn. Note, however, that a Spiny Frog or Mamba can still kill a Deep Elf very quickly, quite possibly faster than a flame cloud will kill the monster... So that's a bit risky.

Hydras and Elephants can be taken out with long columns of flame clouds, as they won't change course to get out once they're in one, if that makes sense. Slow can help here as well, but if you wake up an entire elephant pack, you've got a dangerous situation. Mephetic can work but due to HD isn't so reliable. If you have to take out a pack with just Minor Magic, make a killhole full of flame clouds if at all possible (I call this an "oven"), start summoning imps and get ready to teleport if need be.
"This spell will have no effect right now because your brain is too dead to use."

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Tuesday, 13th October 2015, 06:02

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 06:15

Re: Wizard Start

that spell book kinda needs all those spells to be effective later on in the dungeon.

conjure flame will always be good for mindless things that just move into it no matter what, like most undead, animals, and big-dumb guys. it also acts as a shield to things that will wait.

slow+blink let you flee easier. slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially.

repel is obvious for any ranged.

anything meph cloud works on is great because it will keep imps alive and things will walk into flames.

magic dart is great for weak things to pick off at the edge of los or to just lure things one at a time.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 08:01

Re: Wizard Start

TonberryJam wrote:slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially

What makes Slow worse against normal speed enemies, in your opinion?

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1196

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd April 2014, 21:57

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:48

Re: Wizard Start

Sar wrote:
TonberryJam wrote:slow can work great against fast or slow creatures especially

What makes Slow worse against normal speed enemies, in your opinion?

I suspect 'fast or slow creatures especially' means: All creatures, but especially effective against slow creatures.

In my view it's unnecessary against slow creatures.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:53

Re: Wizard Start

archaeo wrote:"Wizard" is probably the most misleading background name in Crawl; it's a book of spells that can be leveraged to work with several playstyles, and it just so happens that the hardest kind of character to get going as a --Wz is one that mostly kills dudes directly with spells.
This is true! In fact, in the original readme.txt (by Linley?), it said that "If you want to play a caster, pick a conjurer" or something similar. The background is cool, but the confusion from the name is real, and old.

Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.
User avatar

Halls Hopper

Posts: 89

Joined: Monday, 11th April 2016, 21:48

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:56

Re: Wizard Start

Dabbler, Dilettante, Magical Student, Wizard's Apprentice, Unprepared Recluse, Unskilled Hermit, Hedge Roaster?
remove handsome distillation
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4288

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 10:57

Re: Wizard Start

dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

Just move it from Mages to Warrior-mages?
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:07

Re: Wizard Start

"Wizzard"

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
Reptisaurus
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4288

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:12

Re: Wizard Start

Witch
...{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}
DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}
DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE

Dis Charger

Posts: 2057

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 11:48

Re: Wizard Start

dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

Renaming solves nothing.

If you want to give new players a strong clue, let wizards pick a weapon at character creation. If you want to give something more than a clue, write a basic crawl strategy guide* and make it available in-game.

* About things like: a background is not a "class" as in other games, or that "casters" can and should use weapons and fighters can cast spells.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8654

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 17:31

Re: Wizard Start

Oh my god, wizards don't need to be renamed let alone given a weapon, this is just Tavern's melee obsession getting out of hand as usual. If players can't figure out how to kill things with Wz, it's because cloud mechanics aren't obvious, not because it's optimal to use melee to kill things (it isn't).

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
nago
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 4425

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 17:56

Re: Wizard Start

dpeg wrote:Ideas for how to rename Wizards welcome.

* Sword Mage
* Wizizzard
* Matthew Lillard
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 325

Joined: Tuesday, 13th October 2015, 06:02

Post Sunday, 29th May 2016, 17:14

Re: Wizard Start

I always thought the only reason to start wizard was for more MP.
User avatar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1192

Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41

Post Sunday, 29th May 2016, 18:02

Re: Wizard Start

The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.
remove food

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1601

Joined: Sunday, 14th July 2013, 16:36

Post Sunday, 29th May 2016, 18:46

Re: Wizard Start

tabstorm wrote:The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.

That's because it actually does something different and you're playing it like it does the same thing.

Seriously; I don't pick Wz because I want to blast things away with superior firepower -- I pick Wz because in addition to the ranged attack option I get lots of spells that help me avoid death in a variety of ways.

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 742

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 12:30

Post Sunday, 29th May 2016, 20:33

Re: Wizard Start

tabstorm wrote:The Wz background should just be removed. It does what lke 4 other backgrounds do, but badly. Give Cj the extra Int or something.

Conjurer is more similar to the 4 elementalists than Wz is and is a better candidate for removal. But I don't think any of them are so similar that they should be removed.

Like Hurkyl said above, Wz plays differently.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 184

Joined: Tuesday, 4th November 2014, 07:22

Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 20:15

Re: Wizard Start

Don't remove Wizard - you've got to be joking with that. A generalist magician should exist, and it's one of the more interesting book starts, imo.

I would be happy for the rest of the Mage backgrounds to get Wizard starting stats, however, with the possible exception of VM, since lots of people here seem to think VM may as well be placed into the hybrid category (Warrior-mage?) anyway.

Anyway, Wizard is interesting, fun, and rewarding, with many options for development. More backgrounds should be like Wizard in these regards.
"This spell will have no effect right now because your brain is too dead to use."
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1386

Joined: Sunday, 5th April 2015, 22:37

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 02:03

Re: Wizard Start

If you just want to win a Wz, pick TrWz, join trog, and burn the book. Otherwise there are plenty of posts above this to help you.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/playe ... speon.html. I started playing in 0.16.1
I achieved greatplayer in less than a year.
Remove food

Return to Dungeon Crawling Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.