What is generally the best weapon overall


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Post Monday, 9th May 2016, 20:21

What is generally the best weapon overall

Not including artifacts, what is the best weapon for general use? Assuming that the specific character in question is a human.

Basically, what weapon, when you get it, do you think to yourself: "Holy shit, looks like I found my end game weapon." Lets also assume that you have yet to start investing significant experience into a weapon up to that point, so no matter what type it is its still usable without wasting previously gained experience.
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Post Monday, 9th May 2016, 20:43

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I don't think there's a single answer to this. But I'll try anyway.
Lajatang of speed: Very good damage for pretty low XP. The usual problem with this is you have to kind of gamble for it, because you're stuck with a quarterstaff until a lajatang shows up. Obviously this isn't a concern in your example. Probably 'best' overall, because of the utility you gain with that extra XP you didn't have to spend on the weapon.

Triple sword of lightning: Really good damage, only 24 long blades required, best of the end-tier weapons. You can use various other long blades and short blades as you train up, which can come in handy if you find a dagger of venom early on or something. I believe this is the best weapon in terms of straight DPS.

Vampiric on either of the above: Probably the best weapons for a 3 rune game, of course they're like an unbranded weapon against enemies you can't steal health from. Makes weapon swapping much more of a pain, pretty useless in extended.

Those are my theoretical best weapons. Typically though I've already selected a weapon, so generally finding either the top or second from top tier weapon is where I decide to use my EA and branding scrolls, and plan to use it for the endgame.

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Post Monday, 9th May 2016, 21:31

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Best brand depends on where you are. In a lot of extended fights, Antimagic is unbelievable.

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Post Monday, 9th May 2016, 21:35

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

One weapon I was thinking about was a quickblade of pain, since it effects the majority of enemies in the game and can potentially deal insane damage even through heavily armored opponents.

Lajatang of speed is also up there, I agree on that. However, I think a triple sword would be better with fire branding since lightning's damage is a flat boost.

A GC of speed is pretty insane on an ogre as well, but of course thats not realistically going to happen unless you follow trog and are extremely lucky.
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Post Monday, 9th May 2016, 21:42

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Actually you are probably going to get at least one speed (G)SC if you follow Trog, train M&F and can use one. Like 90% of his weapon gifts are going to be randart (G)SCs.

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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 03:33

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned executioner's axes. All of the top-tier weapons have their benefits. (And HO/Mf apts help with the XP needed...)

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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 04:53

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

The answer is: Whatever weapon you find that matches your training, has a decent brand, and non-crap base damage.

Seriously there's not enough of a difference between the top end weapons of each type to identify one as significantly better than another, the exception is short blades (Which can be very good, but only under certain extremely unusual conditions, it's usually better to assume short blades won't be as good as other weapon types unless you *really* know all the math involved, or know you'll be able to reliably get a stabbing bonus.)
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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 06:01

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

amaril wrote:Best brand depends on where you are. In a lot of extended fights, Antimagic is unbelievable.


I usually tend to carry around an antimagic weapon of the type I use as my main weapon, just to be able to switch to it when I encounter something that needs to be shut down. I dump all my extra EW scrolls on it after I have maxed out my main weapon. Antimagic is really helpfull against OOF's, curse toes/skulls, Fiends and Pan Lords. Using it all the time might not be optimal, but it can trivialize some of the nastiest monsters there are.
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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 06:27

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

blade hands + Chei
works pretty well even with lower UC skill, plus looks cool
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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 09:01

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Outside artifacts, I'd vote for lajatang of speed mentioned in the first reply.
Speed is the best general purpose brand (because it's not affected by resistances), and lajatang is highest base damage weapon you can get with speed brand, so it will work even vs high AC targets.
It's usable by any species (except felid and those who sacrificed a hand), and on top of that it doesn't require big XP investment.

Lajatangs are rare, but staves category has just two base types of weapons. So if you have trained staves and have found a quarterstaff, first acquirement/god gift is quite probably a lajatang of something.

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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 11:34

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Tiktacy wrote:Not including artifacts, what is the best weapon for general use? Assuming that the specific character in question is a human.

Basically, what weapon, when you get it, do you think to yourself: "Holy shit, looks like I found my end game weapon." Lets also assume that you have yet to start investing significant experience into a weapon up to that point, so no matter what type it is its still usable without wasting previously gained experience.

You've got two questions here:

1) What's the best weapon for general use as a human?
2) What weapon(s) are end-game weapons?

The answer to the latter is "any weapon at all from the set of weapons that do at least 15 damage, plus sometimes demon weapons, plus sometimes broad axe." It doesn't matter if they have a brand; you can rebrand it. It doesn't matter what the plusses are, because you can enchant it. Basically, you don't need that amazing of a weapon to be good enough for end game, and if your weapon has lower base damage you generally get extra skill points to dump into other things as compensation.

The answer to the former question is purely academic and depends on the version you're playing. In some versions the answer is +72 club. In more standard crawl, assuming good stats and 27 skill, the answer is probably blade hands. I'm perfectly fine with letting someone else run the figures.
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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 14:08

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Ignoring skill investment/damage ratio:

+9 vampiric executioner's axe for the normal game
+9 holy executioner's axe for extended
Chei + Statue/BH/DF
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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 14:50

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Really? Exec axe over triple sword? Cleaving is nice, but that's a lot of extra XP to spend.

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Post Tuesday, 10th May 2016, 15:57

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

The most important thing for a good weapon is that it is in your character's inventory.

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 13:03

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

That's not really an answer to the OP though.

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 13:11

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

it's better than that

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 20:42

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Re: exec axe vs triple sword: the nicest thing about cleaving is that it kicks in when you've messed up.

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 20:51

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

+9 triple crossbow of holy wrath (aka the pump action shotgun of the extended)

(You didn't say it had to be a melee weapon!)
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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 21:14

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Statform + UC:27 > holy bardiche + Spectral Weapon >> everything else.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 21:19

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

statueform actually deals less damage than blade hands

it also obviously deals less damage than dragon form

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Post Wednesday, 11th May 2016, 21:31

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

crate wrote:statueform actually deals less damage than blade hands

it also obviously deals less damage than dragon form

All true, but HP+30% + shield gives it the best damage dealt/damage received ratio in the regular game, and 50% torment resistance makes it the most tabbable all-rune tech.

Edit: Blade Hands also has two drawbacks: no wands/missiles, so forget about throwing rocks to lure enemies to your good position, no healing/tele/hasting wands, other evokables, and -Wiz, which hinders spellcasting.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 00:29

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

sometimes I wonder if people here even realize that statue form makes you slow

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 00:42

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

duvessa wrote:sometimes I wonder if people here even realize that statue form makes you slow

Sometimes I wonder if people realize that when you kill everything in a few hits it doesn't matter, at all.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 00:47

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Ok, I was being snarky, but my real experience after getting Statue Form is that I just kill everything so quickly, that the Slow debuff just doesn't seem to play to it at all. With or without Haste or /hasting or !haste.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 01:46

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

For what it's worth, the more I think about it the more I think minmay's advice is good because of how he delivers it. It makes people desperately want to prove him wrong, so they have to actually figure out why he gives the advice he does, and thus it advances learning, even if whoever he is advising does not reach the same conclusion.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 01:48

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Statue form is unironically good. It's like a 0 ER plate that gives you an HP boost and damage that's at least as good as neutral, if not better due to punching through AC more effectively. More importantly, it's easier to cast a lot of good spells, like haste, cblink, summons of level > 5 (which are all overpowered), borg, and ddoor with less XP investment. In my view it is a good choice for a hybrid-y book start char transitioning away from conjurations or for a Chei character. Unfortunately it has been crapped on since 0.16 with the removal of stoneskin + phase. Oh well.
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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 03:02

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I actually specifically did not comment on statue form, and I will refrain on commenting on statue form. If you re-read my previous post, you will note that it is true regardless of whether minmay's advice is correct.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 08:55

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:In Statue Form, the Slow debuff doesn't matter

Out of curiosity, do you truly believe that? I like hyperbole as much as the next tavern patron, but that takes it a bit too far. By that 'argument' statue form would not improve if the debuff was removed.

In my experience the debuff is a significant enough drawback that it makes statue form a liability in some situations. The main reason for that is that running away is probably the most powerful tactic in the game and statue form often makes it impossible to run away. Sure it can be cancelled, but using a (slow?) action to cancel a form (losing armor in the process) is not great when in danger.

Note that I'm not saying that the spell is useless or bad.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 09:31

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:[...] running away is probably the most powerful tactic in the game and statue form often makes it impossible to run away. Sure it can be cancelled, but using a (slow?) action to cancel a form (losing armor in the process) is not great when in danger.

Note that I'm not saying that the spell is useless or bad.


By those standards Chei would be bad and the best race (to win) would be Centaurs and the worst Nagas, I dont see many people playing Centaur on webtiles (not more than Naga at least, but it may just be an illusion, and running around is tedious as hell that may be why) and while I can't for the life of me properly play a Cheibriados worshipper, I know it is a very powerful god regardless of the slowness it inflicts.


PS: I'd be interested in the number of games played with centaurs and nagas in let's say a month on webtiles, instinctively i'd say it's around the same number but i'd love to be proven wrong.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 09:39

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Actually, the slowness is the reason why Chei is considered a 'bad' god by some people. At low piety Chei is often worse than no god.

Centaurs are stronger than Nagas. Faster than normal movement speed is extremely strong in crawl.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 09:46

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:Actually, the slowness is the reason why Chei is considered a 'bad' god by some people. At low piety Chei is often worse than no god.

Centaurs are stronger than Nagas. Faster than normal movement speed is extremely strong in crawl.

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Yes sure popularity and power are two things and their relationship is not always rational. But on the other hand Centaur apts are crappier (especially defensive ones) than Nagas'. I actually find Nagas funnier to play so even I myself am an example of this :p.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 10:32

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

we could argue all day about chei being good or bad but it's really really hard to deny centaurs are one of the strongest races in the game.

who cares if they have bad overall apts? they have good apts in one of the most powerful playstyle (ranged) and an -extremely- powerful quirk that synergises greatly with it. people don't play them much because they are kind of one-dimensional and boring (more so if you don't enjoy going after your ammunitions all the time) but they are super easy to win with.

nagas on the other hand are very punishing to play due to limited retreat options but are more flexible and probably more interesting.
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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 13:03

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 15:04

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:In Statue Form, the Slow debuff doesn't matter

Out of curiosity, do you truly believe that? I like hyperbole as much as the next tavern patron, but that takes it a bit too far. By that 'argument' statue form would not improve if the debuff was removed.

In my experience the debuff is a significant enough drawback that it makes statue form a liability in some situations. The main reason for that is that running away is probably the most powerful tactic in the game and statue form often makes it impossible to run away. Sure it can be cancelled, but using a (slow?) action to cancel a form (losing armor in the process) is not great when in danger.

Note that I'm not saying that the spell is useless or bad.

Saying that Slow doesn't matter is a bit of a hyperbolic way of saying that the benefits of UC+statform (great damage output, HP+30%, good AC/GDR, EV, SH) vastly outweigh the drawback from Slow. I can honestly say that I all but forget about the debuff in 99%* of the game because the character feels so strong and tanky. The 1%* is handled by hasting.

IMO, winning with a statformer is as easy as it gets, but rTorment always tempts me into fetching the remaining runes as well, and I'd rather have UC+statform than any other build in extended as well.

*) The numbers are pulled out of thin air, your anecdotal numbers may vary.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:25

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I think people overestimate the damage contribution of statue form. The reason for that is that it does a lot more damage per button pressed. The damage increase per aut is smaller. Of course it needs to do 50% bonus damage per hit, just to even out the slow debuff. Of course it does more than that, but there's a big gap between statue and blade hands where raw damage is concerned.

I'm also not convinced that UC+stat is actually better in extended than a good 2-h weapon and heavy armor. It's certainly not worth it for rTorm alone. But, to each, their own.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:36

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I think people overestimate the damage contribution of statue form. The reason for that is that it does a lot more damage per button pressed. The damage increase per aut is smaller. Of course it needs to do 50% bonus damage per hit, just to even out the slow debuff. Of course it does more than that, but there's a big gap between statue and blade hands where raw damage is concerned.

I'm also not convinced that UC+stat is actually better in extended than a good 2-h weapon and heavy armor. It's certainly not worth it for rTorm alone. But, to each, their own.

I don't think I overestimate it. It does better damage with UC than a wielded weapon, even with Slow. At UC:27 + Slow, you're still fighting at 0.75 aut speed, close to the heaviest weapons there are, and you're dealing a lot more effective damage per hit.

But without the body armour encumbrance, your EV is going to be a lot higher than in a body armour. So effectively you're doing more damage, and have better total defences. Why would one prefer something else? Then add HP+30% and the rest and for me it seems quite clear where the advantage is.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)
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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:55

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I've won and enjoyed statform characters (even statform with chei, gasp!) but there are times when you want to do things other than stand next to a dude and tab, and statform makes all those other things more difficult.

Yes you can work around it and yes it feels strong because things die in way few presses and you get HP and rTorment and such but I'm willing to believe the times where statform is a net disadvantage outnumber the times when it's a net advantage. Especially if you aren't meticulous about luring and such. Which I am definitely not.

Again, you can win these chars and they can be fun, but I'm kinda getting a "statue form is the one true path" vibe and it's more complicated than that.
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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:01

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Last time I played optm (this is like, literally the best statue form character in the game) I still found myself using hydra form and dragon form more often than statue form. This is probably not ideal for all players. Other players probably do not have the same tactical strengths you do!

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/crate ... 062106.txt

There are good uses for statue form (it was definitely valuable in that optm game). I have a hard time finding transmutations-based statue form characters that would not benefit from also learning dragon form (it's very close to free, since you have statue form already) and then using whichever of the two is appropriate in the current situation. (There are statue-form EEs or the like who don't want dragon form, but that's not generally what people here talk about. Perhaps more people should use statue form with earth elementalists?)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:09

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

njvack wrote:I've won and enjoyed statform characters (even statform with chei, gasp!) but there are times when you want to do things other than stand next to a dude and tab, and statform makes all those other things more difficult.

Yes you can work around it and yes it feels strong because things die in way few presses and you get HP and rTorment and such but I'm willing to believe the times where statform is a net disadvantage outnumber the times when it's a net advantage. Especially if you aren't meticulous about luring and such. Which I am definitely not.

Again, you can win these chars and they can be fun, but I'm kinda getting a "statue form is the one true path" vibe and it's more complicated than that.

While I agree that statform UC dudes are pretty single-minded, punch everything dead, it's also the only thing required to win the game. If you can excel with that, your chances of winning are pretty, pretty good.

After getting to statform one doesn't really *need* anything else apart from maxing UC, Fighting, and Dodging. If you fetch the extra runes, then sure, get some evoc or air for extra killing power (and healing with Makh), but one doesn't really need that either.

As for statform being the one true path; no. I think that a straightforward melee dude is better because a transmuter doesn't really get super powerful until statue form, which is midgame. But statform definitely maxes out at a higher level than anything else I can think of, so once you get there, sure, it's the best option.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:13

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

crate wrote:Last time I played optm (this is like, literally the best statue form character in the game) I still found myself using hydra form and dragon form more often than statue form.

Both are quite strong, but they lack in defences. Statuepode with a shield has a better damage dealt/damage received ratio than a dragonpode in almost any fight, but I also always memorize Dragon Form for a single purpose: killing OoFs as quickly as possible, and one can't beat Dragon Form in it. Hydraform is fun but all offense, no defense; it's a good form if you lack statue or dragon, but rarely useful after either.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:28

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

crate wrote:Last time I played optm (this is like, literally the best statue form character in the game)

Statuepode has constriction, which makes statform even better on an octopode, and a statformer with 8 rings is quite ridiculous by itself.

Damage-wise, deciding between dragon, hydra, and statue is like deciding between a maxed out exec axe, bardiche, and triple sword in each fight. Sure, you'll kill everybody regardless.

But what does a succesfull fight in Crawl look like? First of all, you kill the dude(s). 2nd, you remain at as good health as possible. Dragon and hydra tick the first box, but not the 2nd one.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)
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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:50

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Animate Skeleton is the best weapon

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animate skeleton ettin club dcss.png (268.47 KiB) Viewed 7844 times


Checkmate Trogolodytes
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Psst, hey kid... you like roguelikes?

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 18:50

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Statuepode with a shield has a better damage dealt/damage received ratio than a dragonpode in almost any fight

This is not true, especially if you change from "damage dealt/damage received ratio" to "current hp/maxhp at the end of the fight", since the latter is what matters. (You can use the former as a proxy for the latter in all cases outside of forms, but dragon form gives you more maxhp than statue form, so it fails here.)

It is true against things that just do damage by meleeing you (I think? I'm too lazy to really test this appropriately), though not actually by a lot, and it sometimes depends on you actually having a shield.

Against things that have unblockable conjurations (including stuff like damnation) the shield does nothing and the AC from statue form tends to do less (conjurations deal a lot of damage) so dragon form's higher maxhp and higher damage is a big deal.

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If you are using a shield, then you are purposely trying to make statue form good and (maybe you don't even realise this) things like dragon form bad (dragon form can't use a shield, so it is just wasted xp that could have gone somewhere better). Obviously, if you go out of your way to make statue form better than dragon form, statue form will be better than dragon form. This might be the right thing for you personally to do as a player, depending on what you are good at. It's very much not the case for me.

It might be illustrative to think about blade hands compared to ice form, also. There's no slowness to complicate things, so this is simpler than statue form-vs-dragon form. Also, ice form and blade hands do basically indistinguishable damage from each other in most situations if you aren't worshipping chei. So the only difference is in the defenses you have in either form. Blade hands typically gives you better AC and better EV; ice form gives you better HP and no spellcasting penalty. From playing characters built toward using one or the other of these forms, I personally think that both forms have advantages (and I think I do better with ice form than with blade hands).

Almost everyone builds toward making blade hands good instead of making ice form good, so then, yeah, no surprise, blade hands does better than ice form when you have a +7 swampDA and lots of dodging skill and less fighting skill and you didn't even learn any escape spells you would cast mid-fight. The mistake is then concluding that ice form is bad without also trying to build an ice form character. If instead you try to make an ice form tm (wear robe, train less dodging skill, no armour skill, more fighting skill, maybe you even have some escape spells) then you might find that ice form actually outperforms blade hands on that character. It certainly is true for me. You might still find that blade hands outperforms ice form even after trying this; that's completely believable (lots of people find ogres difficult, and ice form is a lot like ogres).

Just as you can't build a blade hands character and then use just that to conclude that ice form is bad, you can't build a statue form character (like octopode with shield and lots of dodging skill and not as much fighting skill) and use just that to conclude that dragon form is bad. Maybe players legitimately don't recognize that you can do this and it matters?

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If you want to fight a big group of enemies that is just going to hit you with melee attacks, statue form is pretty good. Personally, however, I find situations like that very low-threat to begin with, since my personal strengths include threat evaluation and melee tactics to fight things one-on-one. So using ice form or hydra form or dragon form in those situations, while it is a bit worse, is still perfectly fine for me; I don't die either way. Scary spellcasters are better tackled with dragon form, since the best defense there is just killing them as fast as possible. Those are the enemies I tend to die to (outside of moth-of-wrath-related things in zot), so I find dragon form better than statue form in general. But, of course, this isn't just a "you can only pick one" sort of thing anyway.

Other players do die to things just meleeing them to death, and if this includes you, then you will surely find statue form better than I do. Statue form is pretty much unarguably good in tomb. Dragon form would be unarguably better against orbs of fire and similar enemies even without the rF it provides.

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note: I have been very careful throughout this post in trying to keep things that are from my perspective clear. I do not claim that what I am good at is what you are good at. Maybe you are better at getting out of messes than I am (I'm really bad at it) and thus you can handle when things start to go wrong in statue form better than I can. Maybe you're worse at threat evaluation so you need the buffer that statue form gives you. Those are things that would make statue form relatively better. I think most people find blade hands superior to ice form even after trying an ice-form-built transmuter.

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Hydraform is fun but all offense, no defense; it's a good form if you lack statue or dragon, but rarely useful after either.

Hydra form is pretty much exclusively useful when it is vamp-axe form. If you're attacking things it eats during fights then it is really very good. If you're not, then it's a bigger ice form but smaller than the biggest ice form (dragon form) so yeah, not very useful. However hydra form is actually still useful for a statue-form character, since it's different instead of just worse.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:00

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

+0 dagger (elec). A weapon so good it will get you through the hardest part of the game (early game), with a minimal xp investment, and common enough that you can actually find one fairly often.

Second choice +0 hunting sling: at XL2 the ability to deal damage to, and often kill, monsters without being adjacent to them is more important than any +9 exec axe.
Last edited by amalloy on Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:01

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Thanks for a very thoughtful reply Crate. Many good points were made, and it warrants a good reply after some thinking thing.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:49

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

For crate, I don't think I'm so much arguing against the other good forms, rather than arguing for statue against non-forms.

You might be very well be correct that Dragon is the superior form in many occasions. I recently did the math on a FeTm and partially because of the aptitudes, I found dragon to be superior because of the HP bonus (+50% vs +30%) and pure damage output. Fe's can't wear shields, so dragon is a heavy favourite by default.

My argument for statue is more directed against non-forms, but let's compare statue to dragon (and to a lesser extent, hydra).

If you could choose to have only one for the remaining game, which one would you choose? Statue is certainly winnable, I've had dudes without either dragon or hydra and found the win to be one of the easier ones. All 15 runes, all with at least a buckler, but rTorment in extended is of course the default.

Without torment, Dragon is the damage king in the game, and with the extra HP, I think that even though a shield-wielding statueformer has the better damage dealt/received ratio, because of the extra damage and HP it's certainly at least close.

So I think your case for dragon is good, Hydra is more situational, because it excels in fighting multiple monsters at the same time, which is always a dangerous prospect.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:51

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:My argument for statue is more directed against non-forms
"Better than literally nothing" is not a glowing endorsement of a level 6 dual-school spell. I do think that statue form is good on some characters but this is a really bad way to evaluate it.
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:rTorment in extended is of course the default.
?????
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:If you could choose to have only one for the remaining game, which one would you choose?
This a nonsensical question since this choice cannot actually occur in the game, but I would choose dragon form and it would be a very easy choice.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:56

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

I'd personally pick dragon form but yes this is not a real situation.

It is clear that for unarmed characters statue form is usually better than no-form but that's pretty useless because all the other forms are also better than no-form and you very nearly always have access to several of them.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:57

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

Some really good arguments ITT, I just want to point out that wizzzargh's post has already won the thread, because dual randart giant club wielding ettin skeleton is the best weapon overall.

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Post Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:58

Re: What is generally the best weapon overall

duvessa wrote:
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:My argument for statue is more directed against non-forms
"Better than literally nothing" is not a glowing endorsement of a level 6 dual-school spell. I do think that statue form is good on some characters but this is a really bad way to evaluate it.
ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:If you could choose to have only one for the remaining game, which one would you choose?
This a nonsensical question since this choice cannot actually occur in the game, but I would choose dragon form and it would be a very easy choice.

With the remaining game I always think about 15 runes with a transmuter because they have the easiest time with it. With 3 runes, dragon is quite an easy choice.
Spellcasting penalties, Armour skill, and strength
15 runes: 2x HuSk, Op(Mo,Tm,Wn,Fi,Wr,EE,AM,Wz,Ne), VSTm, DsTm, Dg(Sk,Tm), MuGl, GhMo, Fe(En,EE,Ar,Wn,IE)
3 runes: FoFi, OgSk, KoHu, SpCj, 2x DgGl, MiBe, Fe(Fi,Tm,Mo,Su)
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