Abyss Ambulator
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Re: Remove either orb run or digging
- For this message the author tabstorm has received thanks: 3
- all before, nago, reosarevok
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Abyss Ambulator
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Cocytus Succeeder
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Wahaha wrote:Psieye wrote:Wahaha wrote:That's a pretty ugly fix in my opinion.
duvessa has already covered that - it's only one possible fix. Generating new levels is another possibility.
You're incorrectly assuming that I'm "triggering immediate-responses"? which is slightly insulting.
Vestibule Violator
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Vestibule Violator
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duvessa wrote:This isn't a tiny or theoretical issue. I have seen players other than myself do it, and should the orb run ever become more dangerous, the problem will become bigger.
It was basically a non-issue back in 0.5 when orb run was weaker and Chei didn't exist. Now it really isn't, imo.
Digging has been "screwed with" many times, I don't see why changing/removing it should be taboo.
Swamp Slogger
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already an extremely easy portion of the game
Ziggurat Zagger
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ie, changing digging based on some hyper optimal strategy that just barely improves player survivability in what is already an extremely easy portion of the game is completely asinine.
2) permanent allies set up problematic incentives in Crawl.
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Swamp Slogger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Tedious grinding in order to accomplish a win has its pleasures; they are just not pleasures that crawl is aiming to provide.
Another basic design principle is avoidance of grinding (also known as
scumming). These are activities that have low risk, take a lot of time, and
bring some reward. This is bad for a game's design because it encourages
players to bore themselves. Even worse, it may be optimal to do so. We try
to avoid this!
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Swamp Slogger
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crate wrote:Actually crawl is not merely not aiming to provide these "pleasures"; it is actively aiming to prevent activities like these from being possibilities.
crate wrote:Digging to clear an orbrun path fits this definition pretty well, so it is clearly (by crawl's own philosophy) a problem ... . The number of players who actually perform grindy things is irrelevant to the existence of a problem.
crate wrote:(you know very well what I meant above even if you disagree with me taking a bit of artistic license with my post)
crate wrote:...perhaps it is not a priority to address it (spend development time elsewhere instead), but I've already brought this up above. If that is the argument you are making, you should understand that that is the argument you are making ....
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Now I can totally see if someone came to a different conclusion about the optimal-ness of digging an orb route, they'd be more in favor of changing something about it, but FWIW I disagree
Ziggurat Zagger
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crate wrote:Now I can totally see if someone came to a different conclusion about the optimal-ness of digging an orb route, they'd be more in favor of changing something about it, but FWIW I disagree
Okay so now the comparison is to orb-apportation; I still personally doubt that orb-apporting all the way to the stairs was actually good practice and thus a change to prevent it wasn't "needed" in the same way that the permanent-zombies change was, but that also got changed so in and of itself saying that "digging isn't actually useful here" appears to also not be a useful argument.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Psieye wrote:Alternatively, an orb run-only monster that casts "Shaft You" to hinder your progress.
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Temple Termagant
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archaeo wrote:
2) Alternately, you could deploy the Corruption code and reflavor the Orb as the thing that the Lords of Pan use to allow the Dungeon to teter on the edge of the Abyss. Without the Orb, the whole thing begins to fall into the Abyss, so in addition to orb spawns, you also get increasing amounts of corrupted territory on the way out.
Cocytus Succeeder
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archaeo wrote:Of course, these are both really big fixes to the small problem duvessa pointed out. I like the idea of a more fun orb run
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Tartarus Sorceror
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Psieye wrote:Constraint 3 suggests we need to scale the threats somehow depending on if the character is a 3-runer or a 15-runer. I think it's better to use Total XP (possibly with caps at the lower and upper ends) to measure how strong a character has gotten from extended content.
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Tartarus Sorceror
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archaeo wrote:I don't think it's any more "spoilery" than what's already happening, dowan. Though I guess you could make an argument that if the game doesn't tell you ahead of time that all dug walls will stop being dug, it'd be even more spoilery, especially for players who come to Crawl from, say, NetHack, where pre-digging your escape route is fairly common casual play.
My issue is that it's just inelegant. Either digging should be permanent, or it should be temporary; making it permanent-until-the-endgame seems kludgy and unappealing, at least to me.
Abyss Ambulator
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ontoclasm wrote:- killholes. This is an awful tactic and should be removed, period.* Like 80% of the content -- not to mention the challenge -- of Crawl is handling groups of monsters in various configurations of terrain. Building a killhole deletes this entirely; you fight exactly one monster at a time in terrain that is 100% beneficial to you. No risk. Minimal cost. Tedious and repetitive. The fact that anyone likes it is entirely due to the fact that people like winning and will vehemently defend bad design if it makes them win more. Other tactics (e.g. stair use) can be worse, but that does not make this one good.
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Abyss Ambulator
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Shoals Surfer
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ontoclasm wrote:That's not true at all. You just dig your killhole in such a way that you can walk out the other end. If /dig only dug one tile per use then maybe that would cost too much, but as it is making a "killtunnel" is usually no more expensive than a dead end.
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Ziggurat Zagger
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zxc23 wrote:Here is a very recent win by bsdbeard without using any potions, scrolls or wands:
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