Remove slotloss mutations from the BeneMut pool

[milski]

See title. "Beneficial" mutation shouldn't give you mutations that are very likely (though not guaranteed) to weaken your character, e.g. gaining Horns 1 and losing your fancy helm. It makes it needlessly risky to quaff considering (afaik) it's supposed to be a rare way to get a strategic bonus for your character. And there are already several ways to engage the mutation system in a risky fashion that may yield a stronger or weaker character.

[duvessa]

no it's supposed to be a way to get players to mutate intentionally more often

[svendre]

no it's supposed to be a way to get players to mutate intentionally more often

Yeah... so they have a harder time removing the 10 bad mutations to follow later
Can we rename Beneficial Mutation potions to: Potion of dampen Cure Mutations?

[Reptisaurus]

C'mon! This is Dungeon Crawl! Everything is out to get you, always.

[pumpyscump]

Circus Animals has the code for this, regular crawl could use it. Muts are good/bad/depends. Anything that could ruin your armor slot is "depends". Potions of mut can give you any mutation, but BeneMut potions only give you Good, aka good mutations that don't make you lose a slot.

https://github.com/jeremygurr/dcssca/co ... 9adf67dd99

[dowan]

Body slot mutations in general (aside from claws) are almost always unwanted. They're also pretty uninteresting, meaning you don't play the game any differently with horns 1 than you do without horns, except your hat selection is more limited.
Claws are either awesome or just another crap body slot mutation, depending on if you use UC. An early claws mutation presents an interesting choice, but typically that only happens with demonspawn, unless you play a lot of mutation roulette.

So I'd go a step further and say remove body slot mutations in general, let them be a species specific thing, like move speed and dietary restrictions. I'd love if they were removed from Demonspawn too, but that's a whole separate thing.

[duvessa]

body slot mutations are only unwanted if:
1. you don't use melee, or
2. they are claws, or
3. you are like dowan and milski, and do not actually know what body slot mutations do, but assume they're bad anyway

[Bart]

Duvessa, could you explain then what body slot mutations do? I was under the impression that auxiliary attacks coming from 1st level body slot mutations are very weak compared to normal attack because of their low base damage. On D:1 I would definitely trade helmet slot for small horns, but on D:15 - I highly doubt.

[duvessa]

level 1 horns headbutt is 8 base damage
beak is 6
other body slot mutations, you aren't going to get to a level where they remove armour (but they are also good (except for claws because you already have a weapon (yes antennae are good, monster detection is strong, just really stupid)))
to get a headbutt or peck, both a (str+dex)/49 chance and a 2/3 chance need to succeed (this is checked on every melee attack you make, and is done independently for all auxes)
all aux attacks fully apply slaying, get almost the same strength damage bonus*, but the damage bonus from fighting is 25% less than for regular attacks for some reason (the reason is that crawl is dumb)

*i encourage you to look at attack::player_stat_modify_damage and melee_attack::player_aux_stat_modify_damage and see for yourself, assuming you aren't bothered by the sensation of your brain trying to escape your skull through your nose

[Sar]

Is slaying fully applied to auxes? Including Augmentation slaying?

[duvessa]

yes

you might notice that i said exactly that

fun fact: corrosion is not applied to aux attack damage

[Bart]

So the benefit of headslot mutation is an unbranded, unenchanted attack with a whip (beak) or a mace (horns) happening at best twice in three attacks. The price is 1-2AC and limited headgear selection.

Beak/horns mutations seem to be only wanted if:
1. dex+str is high, slaying is high, character goes melee, uses fast weapon, preferably already cannot use armour in the affected slot, or
2.You are like duvessa, and like to thrash an ancient lich with the +0 Whip of Mediocrity.

On the topic, I don't think that removal is going to happen, as the intention of BeneMut potions is to introduce double-edged effects rather than strictly beneficial ones. Bodyslot mutations would be more interesting if they had two or even only one level (with a stronger effect than current lvl 1).

[Shard1697]

Knowing that slaying applies is new to me but yeah, outside of having good slaying it doesn't really seem worth it to me most of the time.

If anything I'd rather wild magic was removed from benemut pool though.

[Sprucery]

Just change the name of the potion to 'potion of potentially beneficial mutation'.

[Siegurt]

"potion of mutation, but not the really really bad ones"

And yes, horns/beak are pretty decent, and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

Look at it this way: you are getting around 10 to 50 percent more damage for 1 to 5 more ac, would you wield a weapon that did 10% more damage but had a -1 ac? I would.

[nago]

And yes, horns/beak are pretty decent, and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

Not since a year and more. Dev nerfed Centaur into oblivion and nobody complained, I wonder how is possible.

Look at it this way: you are getting around 10 to 50 percent more damage for 1 to 5 more ac, would you wield a weapon that did 10% more damage but had a -1 ac? I would.

How is possible to reach a bonus of 50% more damage? I mean, I usually swing a good 2 hander - which means at least 15 base damage to which is summed enchantment and ego. Accounting that 25% less from fighting for aux damage, It doesn't look plausible to me to reach a bonus so high, am I wrong?

[dynast]

I dont remember tengus being that good.

[neil]

and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

They used to, but that was removed in 0.17, along with headbutt mini-stun.

[Tiktacy]

And yes, horns/beak are pretty decent, and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

Not since a year and more. Dev nerfed Centaur into oblivion and nobody complained, I wonder how is possible.

Look at it this way: you are getting around 10 to 50 percent more damage for 1 to 5 more ac, would you wield a weapon that did 10% more damage but had a -1 ac? I would.

How is possible to reach a bonus of 50% more damage? I mean, I usually swing a good 2 hander - which means at least 15 base damage to which is summed enchantment and ego. Accounting that 25% less from fighting for aux damage, It doesn't look plausible to me to reach a bonus so high, am I wrong?

Well, the aux attacks always hit(I think), and they gain all the slaying bonus your weapon has without dealing with accuracy. Keep in mind that your aux attack also has the slaying boost from your weapon. Granted, 50% bonus damage is very unlikely, but it would be entirely possible if your strategy involved a weapon of speed at min delay.

The point is that its a huge boost to damage, even 20% boost to damage in exchange for 1-3 AC is a no-brainer level trade off, but 50% boost is entirely possible depending on the situation(although perhaps quite unlikely).

[nago]

They don't automatically hit, they need to pass

both a (str+dex)/49 chance and a 2/3 chance need to succeed (this is checked on every melee attack you make, and is done independently for all auxes)

And what do you mean for slaying boost from your weapon? The enchantment of the latter has not influence over aux damage, only +slay sources.

[dowan]

I need a chart full of numbers! In my experience, having these sorts of mutations didn't add noticeable damage, but of course crawl does its very best to prevent you from having any idea if your attacks are more or less effective, so my impression could be totally off.

I do know what body slot mutations do, inasmuch as bart pointed out, you get an occasional weak attack that is usually pretty forgettable, and I think it's pretty common knowledge that with very high slaying any extra attacks become quite powerful. Losing a +2 helm for a +2 hat isn't a big deal, true, but it sucks when you have a +2 helm of various good things, and lose it, and the best hat is a +2 hat of nothing.

I don't know where these 20% and 50% numbers are coming from, it seems like they came out of thin air. It would depend on your weapon speed, dex/str, actual weapon damage (50% of unbranded whip damage is a lot easier to achieve than 50% of +9 triple sword damage)

An 8 base damage attack every 21 auts is pretty forgettable damage, and most of the time I'm not running around with any slaying except what's on my weapon, which (as far as I know) does not transfer to aux attacks.

[Shard1697]

And yes, horns/beak are pretty decent, and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

Not since a year and more. Dev nerfed Centaur into oblivion and nobody complained, I wonder how is possible.

Because centaur were not nerfed into oblivion, the main feature of Ce is kiting, not hooves.

[nago]

/sarcasm

[infinitevox]

And yes, horns/beak are pretty decent, and hooves ignore AC, for whatever that is worth.

Not since a year and more. Dev nerfed Centaur into oblivion and nobody complained, I wonder how is possible.

Because centaur were not nerfed into oblivion, the main feature of Ce is kiting, not hooves.

Probably meant Minotaur, not Ce.

[duvessa]

Aux attacks don't always hit, they roll for accuracy like other melee attacks.

[adozu]

well if you have claws and beak you can butcher corpses even with a cursed blunt weapon.

[Tiktacy]

well if you have claws and beak you can butcher corpses even with a cursed blunt weapon.

Lol that hasn't been in the game for a long time if I'm not mistaken.

[WingedEspeon]

Actualy fSiming a Human with 24 str and dex Vs a stone giant with a +9 great mace of nothing at 20 maces and flails and 20 fighting with 15 armour in PDA yeilded an ave eff damage of about 24.1 without horns and 25.8 with horns, a 7% increase in damage. increasing fighting to 22 instead of gaining horns increased av eff damage to 25.1, a 4% increase.

Overall I think the loss of denfence balances the gain in offence pretty well, which is not what you want when you could be getting something nice like brown scales.

[Sar]

Probably meant Minotaur, not Ce.

Neither mythological nor Crawl Minotaurs have hooves.

[milski]

Probably meant Minotaur, not Ce.

Neither mythological not Crawl Minotaurs have hooves.

Minotaurs having hooves is a very, very common depiction, though. Kind of an unrelated aside, but Crawl and the (non-modern interpretations of) the minotaur of the labyrinth are probably the only minotaurs that don't have hooves.

[Tiktacy]

Minotaurs should have hooves, but giving hooves an auxiliary attack really doesn't make sense, its just the same as a kick.

[adozu]

well if you have claws and beak you can butcher corpses even with a cursed blunt weapon.

Lol that hasn't been in the game for a long time if I'm not mistaken.

awww man, starving to death because you wielded a glowing mace on d1 was one of the best things, almost as good as getting red sickness because you're both nauseated and starving.

[Zooty]

well if you have claws and beak you can butcher corpses even with a cursed blunt weapon.

Lol that hasn't been in the game for a long time if I'm not mistaken.

Well it's still technically a true statement.

[dowan]

Actualy fSiming a Human with 24 str and dex Vs a stone giant with a +0 great mace of nothing at 20 maces and flails and 20 fighting with 15 armour in PDA yeilded an ave eff damage of about 24.1 without horns and 25.8 with horns, a 7% increase in damage. increasing fighting to 22 instead of gaining horns increased av eff damage to 25.1, a 4% increase.

Overall I think the loss of denfence balances the gain in offence pretty well, which is not what you want when you could be getting something nice like brown scales.

If that great mace was better, which of course it would be in a real game, and your stats weren't so high, since 24/24 is pretty high, it'd be even less effective than 7% more. That's a pretty good best case scenario for horns.
So... I'd probably rather have -2 ac and +7% damage, if all else was equal, but usually it's not. In my last game I lost my +2 helm of see invis, and the only hat was a +0 regular hat of sucking.

[WingedEspeon]

Yes I did cast horns in a pretty good light with that fSim. Playing a lot of gozag characters has probably distorted my sense of what endgame stats for a 3 rune melee character look like. the +9 great mace of nothing was chosen because you might get horns before the end game when your weapon is a lot worse than a +9 great mace, but you might have one with a great brand. On the other hand, if you get horns early game you almost certainly don't have 24/24 stats. Speed would actually increase the damage of horns along with your weapon, but that is pretty rare.

[dowan]

Wait, was it a +9 or a +0 great mace of nothing? That makes a difference if we're talking about percentages. 7% of a mediocre weapon's damage is a lot worse than 7% of a good weapon's damage.

I suppose it's good to see that level 1 horns damage actually does something against stone giants, because I assumed a base damage 8 attack every 21 auts would do practically nothing. In your example it essentially acted as a +3 slaying ego. Would I take a +2 hat of see invis and +3 slaying over an additional +1-2 ac? I suppose I probably would, if I intended to melee.

So... maybe the moral of the story is, don't drink benemut if you have a really good helmet you don't want to lose or spend a cure mut to get back? But if you only have a regular helmet, and hats are available, go ahead and hope for horns.

Antennae are different, their boost obviously doesn't show up in fsim, but detecting monsters through walls is nice. Probably worth 2 ac...

All in all, it's one of the worse effects you could get from benemut (the worst would be wild magic on something like a minotaur who just barely can cast haste). But it's only bad if you have a really good hat, in most cases it's pretty much a wash, and if you have good slaying it's actually pretty good.

[WingedEspeon]

Shoot it was +9. I edited my above post. Stupid dyslexia.

[dowan]

Oh, that's interesting. So it was actually a bit better than I thought originally. Thanks for running the fsim