When to get what runes

[Tiktacy]

I just had a general question about what types of characters are best suited for getting specific runes of Zot.

Generally, I know most people consider the 2 lair runes to be the easiest to get, but I see a lot of variation on opinion of the third rune to acquire. When is it better to go for the demonic rune of zot? The abyssal? The Silver? And so on. My understanding is that silver is the most common 3rd rune to acquire, and its how I've completed most of my 3 rune games.

[ydeve]

For blasters and Qaz worshipers, the slimy rune is really easy. Just blast TRJ from range and run up the stairs to escape the angry mob.

[nago]

Abyss is good as 3rd rune if you're with Lucy. Or so overpowered that doesn't matter what you get.
With my melee char I usually go with slime, especially if I lack of a regen source, because v:5 can slowly chip away all your health if things go south or you don't care to play well, while in slimes there's only one hard fight when you can buff insanely high. This isn't an "advice" as v:5 played well and carefully is usually still safer than slimes and most of good player kinda agree on that.
Tomb is kinda good for undead and kiku worshipper

[RBrandon]

I find it extremely surprising that tomb always comes up in these 3rd rune discussions. Does anyone actually do this?

[Tiktacy]

I remember going into crypt once to go for tomb as my third rune and left the crypt for a minute to get a book on one of the vault levels. I ended up dying to a single fire crab, I have never been so angry at a death in this game before.

[KoboldLord]

The third Rune is kind of a risk-vs-reward thing. The Silver Rune is one of the more dangerous ones, but it gives you quite a bit of loot and is fairly likely to cover any holes in your inventory if you still have some sort of problem. It presents a wide variety of threats that no character is guaranteed to be fully prepared for, and most of the map is absolutely dreadful terrain for prolonged combat. Clearing Vaults 5 is usually at least somewhat fun, which is actually pretty important.

The Abyssal Rune is tedious and gives basically no reward at all, but if you have a remarkably delicate character it will probably be the safest. Unless it randomly decides to lock you in a cul-de-sac with something you can't reasonably fight, in which case you die. But that's unlikely; usually it is just a slog. I generally go with the Abyssal Rune for my 15th Rune because getting it usually involves voluntarily going to the Abyss, and I generally don't voluntarily choose to enter the Abyss if there's another thing I could do. Because it is the Abyss.

Slime and Tomb are dangerous on first appearances, but the danger they present can be ameliorated with a relatively small but specific set of preparation. If you happen to have the tools to handle one of them, that branch is a good option that is safer than Vaults 5, but if you don't have those tools you have fewer options to bypass those dangers. Slime is usually more fun than Tomb, but either of them is probably going to be more fun than the Abyss. Although at its worst, Tomb can be very unfun. More fun than the Abyss is not a very high bar to clear.

[Leszczynek]

I find it extremely surprising that tomb always comes up in these 3rd rune discussions. Does anyone actually do this?

I do, on Ghouls. Dispel Undead is about the only thing you have to fear there and its users are relatively weak. There's also the Silence/Darkness cheese competent fighters can pull off, I have to try it with a Formicid some time.

[Sar]

I could see doing Tomb as my third with Kiku (I did that), though I'm not sure if that's optimal, but it can be fun!

[Airwolf]

Abyss is also good for stealthy characters and with Ash (showing exits, stairs, items, & monsters).

Tomb is easier with Kiku or Zin, and by ghouls and mummies (but not vampires). Tomb might work as 3rd rune for a ghoul of Kiku (or other race Zin with lucky drops for rN+++), but very rarely, if ever, would it be the easiest 3rd rune.

The OP asked about the demonic rune: I can't imagine a scenario when any of the Pan or Hell runes are the easiest 3rd rune. Pan & Hell lords are nasty, not to mention Fiends etc. I've never ninjaed runes, though.

Edit: Sorry for the redundancy. Somehow I missed a bunch of comments before I replied.

[Airwolf]

That's a good point about loot: Tomb loot is insane & Slime is good. Even Abyss loot can be good. I'd say Tomb > V:5 > Slime > Abyss. Some of the Hells and Pan are great (e.g. Cerebov) and some are not (e.g. Mnoleg).

[nago]

Abyss loot doesn't exist, so it´s difficult for it to be good

[tabstorm]

Do Slime it's easiest
Unless you can't get rCorr, then do V:5

[amaril]

IMO loot should almost never be a consideration. Grab the rune that is most manageable for your character. If you can get three runes, you can beat the game.

Slime might be 'easier' than vaults, just because it is so predictable, but acid blobs are a hassle and I don't like dealing with mutations when I don't have to, so I almost always do vaults.

[WingedEspeon]

I find it extremely surprising that tomb always comes up in these 3rd rune discussions. Does anyone actually do this?

Yes, it is actually rather easy on Mu because you can't get tormented.

[Sar]

Tomb nowadays has holy executioners and lots of dispel undead, so it was easy, but not anymore!

[duvessa]

My idea of optimal branch order:
D until Lair (or until like D:11 if you really want) -> Lair -> Orc -> Remainder of D, Lair branch 1-3, other Lair branch 1-3 (order in which you do the 3 doesn't matter much and will change per character anyway) -> Lair branch:4 -> Vaults:1-4, other Lair branch:4 (again, order depends on character) -> Depths -> Vaults:5 or Slime -> Win

Almost all characters that do the above branches first can do Vaults:5 or Slime in complete safety, the choice doesn't matter a lot. I default to Vaults:5 because of that, since Vaults:5 has enormously better reward than Slime. The main characters where you'd rather do Slime first are formicids, maybe stabbers too. Of course if you are just more personally comfortable doing Slime first for whatever reason (the tactics are notably simpler), or want Jiyva, go ahead, because like I said they're both safe choices for almost all characters.

Elf and Crypt don't generally help humans win (death by inattention is more likely than the extra loot/xp turning the tide in the small part of the game that remains), so you're really just doing them for fun/grinding in most cases; if you do want to do them, Crypt is still really easy so it's good to do when you find it, and Elf probably right before doing Depths or so, or a bit earlier if you have cloud spells or LRD.

If you are already worshipping Lugonu then going to Abyss for your third rune can be good. If you are not with Lugonu then doing that is completely insane.

Realistically Tomb is never going to be the easiest third rune anymore, even old Tomb was really only the easiest 3rd rune for Kiku worshippers. It is still extremely predictable so it's often the easiest 5th rune.

[infinitevox]

If you are already worshipping Lugonu then going to Abyss for your third rune can be good. If you are not with Lugonu then doing that is completely insane.

I don't understand why people think Abyssal rune is so bad. It's really not. It has never been a terribly dangerous rune imo. Just plunge to Abyss:3, look for rune. If baddies start to swarm, read a tele scroll.
It's actually even easier now that gates spawn from killing mobs.
I honestly feel like Slime is more risky than Abyss, despite being able to use the same strategy pretty much every time for Slime.

[amaril]

Abyss is one of the most unpredictable branches in the game. Sometimes you can grab the rune w/o difficulty, but there are situations that can appear basically out of nowhere that are extremely dangerous for all characters. And if you misjudge combat and need to read tele, it takes like an extra 10 turns to go off.

Slime, otoh, is super predictable, provides a convenient hallway in which to fight TRJ, and it is usually easy to retreat if things are going poorly.

[duvessa]

Yes, Abyss has a low chance of putting you in a really bad situation, but Vaults, Snake, Spider, Swamp, Shoals, Slime, and usually Tomb have no chance at all of putting you in a really bad situation if you approach them correctly. Abyss is distinguished by giving dramatically less weight to player skill than any other place in the game (the positioning game is extremely shallow because of terrain shifting and the way monster spawns work) so if you are writing a bot then maybe it makes sense to have it do Abyss for the third rune, otherwise no.

[Airwolf]

Somebody said this recently in another thread, but I don't think terrain shifts in Abyss happen often enough to be as important as duvessa suggests.

[duvessa]

Perhaps I was not clear. Abyss monsters effectively converge on the player's location when spawned. This means that your current location is always the worst place to be as far as encountering monsters, which means that most of your time in Abyss is spent moving into unexplored territory. Staying in good terrain for a while can be useful, but since it means encountering more monsters and it's going to shift anyway, it is generally not too appealing.

[dowan]

That's true, but getting marked in vault 5 is worse, even if you immediately cancel it you have to get the hell out of dodge asap.

I like to do abyss for my 3rd rune with very stealthy characters who I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vault 5 with. If you have a fair amount of tele scrolls/wands (which I always seem to by then), and you identify dangerous situations while you still have lots of HP, abyss isn't too bad. With stealthy characters, you can usually just keep walking and nothing notices you, and if something bad does notice you, pop a tele and keep walking. The most important thing in the abyss is to keep moving, like duvessa said, the longer you stay in one spot the more monsters there are converging on your location. It will get out of control sooner or later.

Abyss does have a unique ability to generate wildly difficult scenarios, but its average danger level (on a stealthy character) is far below the other 3rd rune options, in my opinion.

The biggest problem with abyss is the tedium, but the recent changes have definitely improved that. And being able to quickly escape the abyss when you get banished to abyss 5 by a zot trap or alich is a very good thing.

[Sar]

Well, it's not the average danger that kills you in Crawl...

[dowan]

That's certainly true. But I think vault 5 generates more deadly situations than abyss, even though the deadly abyss situations are probably even more deadly than the vault ones. But in the abyss, a successful teleport means you are now safe from that danger. In vault 5, it might not.

[Sar]

Yeah, but Abyss delays teles a lot and prohibits cblinks.

[Gerad]

Yeah, but Abyss delays teles a lot and prohibits cblinks.

The "prohibits cblinks" part is no longer true and I think hasn't been for a little while. Which helps a tab but isn't a game-changer, given the nature of the Abyss.

[Reptisaurus]

What order do you do the hell branches in, assuming decent resists?

[duvessa]

I like to do abyss for my 3rd rune with very stealthy characters who I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vault 5 with.

Well there's your problem. Stairdancing v:5 is a bad strategy.

[shnurlf]

I like to do abyss for my 3rd rune with very stealthy characters who I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vault 5 with.

Well there's your problem. Stairdancing v:5 is a bad strategy.

It works wonderfully till the first Vault Warden shows up. Then you're gonna have a bad time if you were relying exclusively on stair dancing.

[njvack]

Even with no wardens, the terrain at the center of the V:5 map is unfavorable. Stairdancing a quicksilver dragon up while like five stone giants and titans and aliches are hitting you with ranged attacks and stuff is awful. And that's assuming you can get a monster alone to pound on you while you lumber up the stairs, which you can do like one time before the stairs get swarmed. Yeah, some characters are diesel enough to manage this, but you could have fought somewhere better a lot more safely.

Being in the middle of V:5 means you usually have a lot of nasty monsters onscreen at once, and that you'll likely draw more out of every quadrant and maybe the hallways if you're especially lucky. You really want to limit the number of nasty you see at once, so find a quadrant with good terrain and start there.

[Reptisaurus]

I like to do abyss for my 3rd rune with very stealthy characters who I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vault 5 with.

Well there's your problem. Stairdancing v:5 is a bad strategy.

I just don't get that.

My argument starts with "I am a terrible player" so that might be my problem...

but I am a terrible player, I always do vaults, I always stairdance V:5, and I can't remember ever dying. I've been shinxilized, titaned and even ugly thinged to death on v:5, but that was never on the stairs. By the time you get to vaults 5 you're going to have missiles of penetration or smiting or a bolt spell or mass confusion or SOMETHING that can deal with wardens. If I feel like I'm getting overwhelmed I go do elf or something and let a few of the monsters disperse. Maybe if you're playing a spriggan with an armor class of 2 and 16 hit points it's a bad idea, but if you have fair-to-middlin' ac and can take a few hits, stairdancing seems a lot safer than cutting yourself off from your only escape route to relative safety.

[Tiktacy]

Is silence useful on V:5 for preventing swarming?

Assuming you can deal with the swarm of guards and have a Tele wand incase things get ugly.

[njvack]

duvessa's guide to V:5

My Vaults:5 guide:
- start by using whatever buffs you want before entering v:5, one of these buffs should be haste
- my first action on v:5 is always reading a scroll of magic mapping
- don't stay on the stairs, unless maybe you are casting shatter
- don't make a lot of noise (immolation is a dumb idea, the "vault guard" monster is about as strong as an orc knight so it's not a big deal if they follow you), or if you do make noise, move to a new position afterwards. Not making the noise at all is better than making noise and then moving. Yes, most characters need to make some noise to kill things, but not a lot.
- DON'T STAY ON THE STAIRS, the stairs are where every monster on the level will converge when they wake up. It is not a stretch to say that the stairs are actually the worst place to be on v:5, this is why random teleporting upon entering is not a terrible strategy like it would be on normal levels. If you want to stair dance a couple of times to kill most of the vault guards, sure, that's probably fine, but go away from the stairs afterwards.
- The best terrain is almost always in one of the quadrants, not along the perimeter. You want to make it slow for monsters to reach you.
- Hasting and running is OP.

Here are some examples of quadrants with really good terrain:

  Code:

NAME:   vaults_end_mu_not_diamond
TAGS:   vaults_end_quadrant unrand
SUBST:  9 = 8 9 *:20
: vaults_end_loot(_G)
: vaults_end_rune(_G)
MAP
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 ..x9x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.
x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x9x.x
xx.x.x.x.x9x.x.x9x.x.x.x.xx
x.x.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.x.x
xx9xxxxxxxxx.x.xxxxxxxxx.xx
x.x.xxxxxxxx...xxxxxxxx.x.x
xx.xxxxxxx...9...xxxxxxx9xx
x.x.xxxxx.........xxxxx.x.x
xx.xxxxx...|$|$|...xxxxx.xx
x9x.x.x....$***$....x.x.x.x
xx.x.x.x.9.|*O*|.9.x.x.x.xx
x.x.x.x....$***$....x.x.x9x
xx.xxxxx...|$|$|...xxxxx.xx
x.x.xxxxx.........xxxxx.x.x
xx.xxxxxxx...9...xxxxxxx.xx
x.x.xxxxxxxx...xxxxxxxx.x.x
xx9xxxxxxxxx.x.xxxxxxxxx9xx
x.x.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.x.x
xx.x.x.x.x9x.x.x9x.x.x.x.xx
x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x
 ..x9x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.x9x..
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP

Full of squares where only 4 other squares will be in LOS, making it very easy to reposition and fight one monster at a time, and with very little risk of getting meaningfully cornered.

  Code:

NAME:    vaults_end_minmay_connected_circles
TAGS:    vaults_end_quadrant_prize unrand
SUBST:   9 = 8 9 .:20
NSUBST:  * = 1:O / *:*
: vaults_end_loot(_G)
: vaults_end_rune(_G)
MAP
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 x.9.xxxxxx*9xxxxxxxxxxxx
x.....xxxx9..*xxxxxxxxxx.xx
x9.$.9xxxx*..9xxxxxxxxx.xxx
x.....xxx.x9*xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
xx.9.xxx.xxxx.xxx.9.x.xxxxx
xxx.xxx.xx$9xx.x.....xxxxxx
xxxx.x.xx$*$9xx.9.$.9xxxxxx
xxx.9.xxx9$*$xxx.....xxxxxx
xx.$.$.x.x9$*$xxx.9.x.xxxxx
xx9.$.9.xxxx$*$xxx.xxx.xxxx
xx.$.$.x.xxxx$x.x.xxxxx*9xx
xxx.9.xxx.xxxxxx.xxxxx9..*x
xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx.xxxxx.*..9x
xxx9*.*xxxx*9x.xxxxx.xx9*xx
xx.*.*.*xx9..*xxxxx.xxxxxxx
x........x*..9xxxx.xxx.9xxx
x.......9xx9*xx*9*xxx.$.9xx
x9.......x.xxx*.*.*xx9...xx
x.........xxxx9*.*9x.x9..xx
x.......xxxxxx*.*.*.xxx...x
 x....9xxxxxxxx*9*xxxxxx.x
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP

By sitting in one of the circles, you can easily use the diagonal lines to keep at most one monster in LOS at a time.
Here are some without any good terrain:

  Code:

NAME:   vaults_end_mu_clover
TAGS:   vaults_end_quadrant unrand
SUBST:  9 = 8 9 .:20
NSUBST: ? = 1:O / *:*
NSUBST: " = 1:. / *:x
: vaults_end_loot(_G)
: vaults_end_rune(_G)
MAP
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 ........................
x.........................x
x..xxxxxxxxx999xxxxxxxxx..x
x..x?**....x...x....**?x..x
x..x**..9..x...x..9..**x..x
x..x*..9...x...x...9..*x..x
x..x..9....xx"xx....9..x..x
x..x...................x..x
x..xxxxxxxx.....xxxxxxxx..x
x..9......x.....x......9..x
x..9......"....."......9..x
x..9......x.....x......9..x
x..xxxxxxxx.....xxxxxxxx..x
x..x...................x..x
x..x..9....xx"xx....9..x..x
x..x*..9...x...x...9..*x..x
x..x**..9..x...x..9..**x..x
x..x?**....x...x....**?x..x
x..xxxxxxxxx999xxxxxxxxx..x
x.........................x
 .........................
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP

Every spot inside the vault not only lets several monsters get to you at once, but corners you.

  Code:

NAME:    vaults_end_dpeg_shops1
TAGS:    vaults_end_quadrant vaults_end_quadrant_mall unrand
KFEAT:   S = any shop
: if crawl.one_chance_in(4) then
SUBST:   A = +, a = ., CD = x
: else
SHUFFLE: CD
SUBST:   C = ., DAa = x
: end
SUBST:   9 = 8 9 .:20
: vaults_end_loot(_G)
: vaults_end_rune(_G)
MAP
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 ..xxxxxxxxxx.....xxxx...
x...xxxxx.................x
xx........................x
xxx......................xx
xxxx.....................xx
xxxx.....................xx
xxx......9xxxxxxx........xx
xx......9xxxxxxxxx.......xx
xx......xxx$999$xxx.......x
xx......xC.9$$$9.xx.......x
x.......CC.9$S$9Oxx.......x
x.......xC.9$$$9.xx......xx
x.......xAa$999$xxx......xx
xx.......xAxDDDxxx9......xx
xx........xxxDxxx9......xxx
xx.....................xxxx
xx.....................xxxx
xx......................xxx
x........................xx
x.................xxxxx...x
 ....xxxx.....xxxxxxxxxx..
  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP

Barely better than having no walls at all.

There are only like 8 quadrants total without any good terrain, out of like 70; I'm not going to try to compute the chances of getting 4 of those quadrants, because it's complicated by there being multiple kinds of quadrants. I'm content with just saying it's very unlikely to happen. If 3 or fewer of the 4 quadrants have bad terrain then it's not really a big deal because you started by reading mapping so you can just go to the one with good terrain!

[njvack]

Is silence useful on V:5 for preventing swarming?

I suppose I might silence a sentinel if it was in range of my silence and I could cast silence and I didn't want to be casting other things? Normally V:5 is a place where I would really like to be able to read scrolls at least, though.

[archaeo]

What order do you do the hell branches in, assuming decent resists?

This seems like something that totally depends on the character. I usually find Tar easiest and Dis hardest, but it's not that much of a difference; they're all equally easy to keep controlled and relatively safe, especially if you get fat on all the XP from Pan first. It's mostly just a slog.

This answer might be more specific if you were going to do hell right after 3 runes, but why would you.

[Tiktacy]

What order do you do the hell branches in, assuming decent resists?

This seems like something that totally depends on the character. I usually find Tar easiest and Dis hardest, but it's not that much of a difference; they're all equally easy to keep controlled and relatively safe, especially if you get fat on all the XP from Pan first. It's mostly just a slog.

This answer might be more specific if you were going to do hell right after 3 runes, but why would you.

Tar is hardest now because of doom hounds.

My oroder:

Coc: Monsters are the least scary here, boss is weak
Geh: The spawns here aren't too hard to deal with, brimstone fiends are a lot scarier than ice fiends though.
Dis: Almost entirely comprised of omniresistent and magic immune monsters with enormous AC.
Tar: Doom hounds. They make hell sentinels and fiends look like fucking turnips. If your evocations isn't amazing and you don't have a lot of wands of poly, then you are going to have a bad time.

[Sar]

Doom hounds nowadays just make more branch-specific monsters spawn, though? That's not terrible, actually, since those aren't guaranteed to be top tier ones you actually care about.

[crate]

hell branch order is pretty much completely irrelevant for 99% of all games

you don't kill enough things in hell for the increase in xp to make a big difference unless you are doing some sort of challenge run (including speedruns) where you are very low on xp to begin with (these games are the 1%), and you get almost no loot either

just do them in any order

[Tiktacy]

hell branch order is pretty much completely irrelevant for 99% of all games

you don't kill enough things in hell for the increase in xp to make a big difference unless you are doing some sort of challenge run (including speedruns) where you are very low on xp to begin with (these games are the 1%), and you get almost no loot either

just do them in any order

Its worth mentioning that if the player wills it and has easy access to necromutation, one could easily grind hell branches for obscene amounts of experience with very little risk as long as you stay on the exit.

This strategy is not viable or fun most of the time though. I did this as a chei worshipper on my MfGl win in order to get controlled blink online, and if not for that then I never would have stood a chance in hell(literally). I did it again as an ashenzari worshipper for almost exactly the same reason, but instead of needing controlled blink, I just wanted it so I could be the shatter ninja I always wanted to be.

[WingedEspeon]

Gehenna is the most dangerous in my opinion because the other branches have very little hellfire and you AC/EV by that point should be so insane that hellfire is one of the few things left in the game that is actually dangerous.

[dowan]

I like to do abyss for my 3rd rune with very stealthy characters who I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vault 5 with.

Well there's your problem. Stairdancing v:5 is a bad strategy.

It might be a bad strategy, but so is picking not-trog. But let me explain myself.

If feel comfortable stairdancing vaults 5 because I have good defenses, that's the route I'll start with, even if I'm also very stealthy (not a common occurrence) . Of course, as things change in vault 5, I will stop stairdancing if necessary, and probably just teleport out and tackle it from there. But it's not uncommon to stairdance the initial wave, and a bunch of reinforcements before wardens show up, and if enemy density has fallen enough, I'll feel safe to kill the wardens and resume dancing. Most of the time, I am able to keep stairdancing until stuff stops coming.

If I don't feel comfortable stairdancing vaults 5, because my defenses don't seem adequate for it, AND I am very stealthy, I'll typically go for the abyssal rune. I only feel safe going for the abyssal rune if I am very stealthy.

If neither of those things are true, I'll tackle vaults 5 in pretty much the way duvessa describes, in a non-stairdancing fashion, usually teleporting right away, or maybe just hasting up and running down a corridor.

Lately I've been playing mostly heavy armored melee types, and dith following spellcasty types, so I haven't had to do scenario 3 in a while.

[tabstorm]

What order do you do the hell branches in, assuming decent resists?

This seems like something that totally depends on the character. I usually find Tar easiest and Dis hardest, but it's not that much of a difference; they're all equally easy to keep controlled and relatively safe, especially if you get fat on all the XP from Pan first. It's mostly just a slog.

This answer might be more specific if you were going to do hell right after 3 runes, but why would you.

Tar is hardest now because of doom hounds.

My oroder:

Coc: Monsters are the least scary here, boss is weak
Geh: The spawns here aren't too hard to deal with, brimstone fiends are a lot scarier than ice fiends though.
Dis: Almost entirely comprised of omniresistent and magic immune monsters with enormous AC.
Tar: Doom hounds. They make hell sentinels and fiends look like fucking turnips. If your evocations isn't amazing and you don't have a lot of wands of poly, then you are going to have a bad time.

Tar isn't the hardest. It's pretty clearly Dis now with iron giants and hell sentinels, I think. I accidentally thanked your post when trying to quote it.

Anyway, you can use Poly on doom hounds because they have 20 MR. They aren't that threatening.

[ydeve]

I accidentally thanked your post when trying to quote it.

You can unthank posts. Hit the thank button again.