View: Okawaru is too good compared to others; UC is OP

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I tend to pick Oka by default with all my characters, because her abilities are just too good compared to every god in the game, and I'd like to use the other gods more.

I tend to play mostly UC characters, because after the initial period where UC sucks, it quickly becomes the best melee skill in the game. The main reasons are forms, so for species without them UC maxes out at a lower point than with others. UC base damege is 3+skill, so at 27, even without forms, the damage is absurdly good.

With Okawaru one gets +5 in the weapon skill, Dodging, Armour, and Stealth. +5 with UC characters means +5 base damage, and almost an aut more in speed, and because UC maxes out at 27, it remains a superb buff throughout the main game, but UC characeters with forms tend to have an easy time in extended as well: there is no threat in the extended game that can't be dealt with Statue Form + buffs, and Oka's buffs are the strongest of them all: +5 base damage might lose it's appeal after maxing out the UC skill, but double damage with Finesse never does.

I'd like to see a nerf in Oka's abilities so I'd have a reason for picking out some other deity. Possible nerfs: give only +3 in the abilities with Heroism, or make Finesse only give Haste-level attack speed increase, or give Contam like Haste, so Finesse wouldn't stack so well with +Inv.

Even after those nerfs I'd still probably pick Oka over any other deity in the game though.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

One extra reason for Oka: Her wrath is benign compared to others. When one has blink and haste, I've never ever lost a char to her wrath. Switching to Makh for extended is easy-peasy without a real drawback.

And for my other problem: Makh is too good in extended compared to other deities. With either a disc of storms, or Tornado, switching to Makh keeps the character at max HP at all times. And because switching from Oka is so easy, switching to Makh has almost no drawback.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

The idea I just had, was replacing Oka's Finesse ability to give double damage to giving +5 in spellcasting and evocations.

Because many Oka dudes tend to be warriors with spellcasting buffs, getting a bit of help there would be a good way of not making Oka just a version of Trog.

[Sar]

fun fact: Okawaru wrath used to be number one Crypt killer

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

fun fact: Okawaru wrath used to be number one Crypt killer

I know the wrath can be hard, but with Finesse it's just not likely to be so. As I said, I personally haven't lost a character to wrath, but I can imagine one who did.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

My main point is regarding to switching from Oka: If you have a strong enough character to switch from at that point, the wrath is unlikely to pose problems. Otherwise, you're fine with no switching; Finesse vs OoF is the strongest abilility in the game.

[Sar]

I know the wrath can be hard, but with Finesse it's just not likely to be so.

I don't understand. You lose Finesse when you switch away from Okawaru?

Finesse vs OoF is the strongest abilility in the game.

Berserk is probably comparable.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I know the wrath can be hard, but with Finesse it's just not likely to be so.

I don't understand. You lose Finesse when you switch away from Okawaru
A misthought, a brain fart if you will. Of course you don't retain your abilities after switching. But, at that point you're likely to be strong enough to deal with the dudes regardless.

Finesse vs OoF is the strongest abilility in the game.

Berserk is probably comparable.

Berserk is really strong, but it has a drawback, which other abilities don't. When you're at Zot:5, you're likely to have a potion or two of might and agility, perahaps. Most of my chars would likely quaff those, instead of invoking Berserk, because one of those leads our hero with a chance to escape; the other one with having to fight.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I've replied to many of you, but do you really subscribe to the notion that Oka is too good, and need to be nerfed?

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Some seem to say, that the wrath is just fine as it is. I subscribe to the notion, that it isn't, and it needs to be worked out.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I think that Oka needs a strong thinking-out throughout.

[dowan]

Oka is really good, but he's no trog. You're looking at it through a very narrow lens of transmuters though, for whom oka is really, really good for the reasons you outlined. Also you're looking at things generally from a late game standpoint, although +5 to all fighting skills is good early game too... I wouldn't take wrath into account when talking about god strength.

If you're using finesse to kill oka wrath summons you must be a hacker. I assume you meant haste there.

I do love me some oka, but he got nerfed enough when corpse sacrificing was lost and heroism cost went up. Also, keep in mind, gods are not intended to be balanced against one another, just to provide different play experiences. If you think Oka is so good that nobody would ever pick some other god over Oka, that would be a problem. If you think Oka is just generally better than Sif, that's not really a problem, because they're so different. Otherwise Chei would have to give you like +100 to all stats to be 'balanced' against the other gods.

[Sar]

do you really subscribe to the notion that Oka is too good, and need to be nerfed

No. Sorry!

[crate]

note that +5 base damage to UC is very different from +5 base damage to a weapon; you cannot compare UC to weapons in this way, and in fact you should mostly just never talk about base damage with UC because it is a meaningless number except to compare to other UC attacks

use fsim if you want to compare

oka is strong (and he is particularly strong with UC; heroism is actually a 100%-ish damage boost for much of the game for UC, though less with transmutations) but i don't think he's actually more powerful than some other gods (particularly trog, fedhas) so I don't think this is a big problem

[Xion350]

Gods should take back weapons/items they gift you when you leave.

[Pereza0]

Maybe try other playstyles that don't benefit as much from him?

Or just pick another god even if the synergy isn't as insane?

There are many combos that become ridiculously powered in extended. Three-five rune games is where things are mostly balanced IMO. Characters that decide to go extended are usually those that won't die to it.

[WingedEspeon]

I've replied to many of you, but do you really subscribe to the notion that Oka is too good, and need to be nerfed?

No, where did you get that idea?

[duvessa]

Ever since his piety change I don't think okawaru is very good by crawl god standards. The time at which you get heroism is a crapshoot compared to gods with standard piety on kills, or sif, or fedhas.

[Lasty]

I think Oka is still a reasonably powerful god, but nowhere near the top of power lists. Every character is going to have some gods that offer more and others that offer less, depending on what you already have and how your character's current gear and species scale over time, but for most combinations at least one god other than Okawaru offers a better deal both short-term and long-term. I mean, Fedhas, Makhleb, and Trog all exist, for starters.

Overall I think Okawaru is in a fine place balance-wise, but if anything needs a buff, not a nerf.

[Siegurt]

oka is strong (and he is particularly strong with UC; heroism is actually a 100%-ish damage boost for much of the game for UC, though less with transmutations) but i don't think he's actually more powerful than some other gods (particularly trog, fedhas) so I don't think this is a big problem

FWIW, the first column is your current UC skill and the second is the percentage bonus Heroism gives you:

Normal UC, no claws:

  Code:

0   193.88%
1   148.44%
2   121.28%
3   103.26%
4   90.48%
5   80.97%
6   73.64%
7   67.86%
8   63.19%
9   59.38%
10   56.21%
11   53.57%
12   51.35%
13   49.48%
14   47.90%
15   46.57%
16   45.45%
17   44.53%
18   43.78%
19   43.18%
20   42.73%
21   42.41%
22   42.22%
23   32.48%
24   23.46%
25   15.08%
26   7.28%
27   0.00%


Claws:1

  Code:

0   120.41%
1   102.43%
2   89.67%
3   80.16%
4   72.84%
5   67.05%
6   62.37%
7   58.53%
8   55.35%
9   52.68%
10   50.43%
11   48.52%
12   46.90%
13   45.52%
14   44.36%
15   43.38%
16   42.57%
17   41.90%
18   41.37%
19   40.97%
20   40.69%
21   40.52%
22   40.47%
23   31.22%
24   22.61%
25   14.57%
26   7.05%
27   0.00%


Claws 2

  Code:

0   88.92%
1   79.43%
2   72.10%
3   66.30%
4   61.62%
5   57.77%
6   54.56%
7   51.87%
8   49.59%
9   47.66%
10   46.00%
11   44.59%
12   43.39%
13   42.36%
14   41.50%
15   40.78%
16   40.18%
17   39.71%
18   39.35%
19   39.10%
20   38.95%
21   38.90%
22   38.95%
23   30.12%
24   21.86%
25   14.12%
26   6.85%
27   0.00%


Claws 3

  Code:

0   71.43%
1   65.63%
2   60.93%
3   57.07%
4   53.85%
5   51.14%
6   48.84%
7   46.88%
8   45.19%
9   43.75%
10   42.51%
11   41.45%
12   40.54%
13   39.77%
14   39.13%
15   38.60%
16   38.18%
17   37.86%
18   37.63%
19   37.50%
20   37.46%
21   37.50%
22   37.63%
23   29.17%
24   21.21%
25   13.73%
26   6.67%
27   0.00%


Slaying, and most transmutations would tend to decrease the percentage of bonus damage done by heroism on UC (As would any other flat bonuses to damage, from say might or infusion)

[crate]

I got very different numbers when I tested, but it depends on the actual enemy you are fighting and how much fighting skill you have. For 10/10 fighting/UC with no claws/tmuts and 18/18/18 stats I get a 95% damage increase against a yak when using heroism.

[Siegurt]

I got very different numbers when I tested, but it depends on the actual enemy you are fighting and how much fighting skill you have. For 10/10 fighting/UC with no claws/tmuts and 18/18/18 stats I get a 95% damage increase against a yak when using heroism.

That's pre-AC, AC will obviously knock off more of the lower-end damage, resulting in higher net damage increases (as any increase in damage does)

As a simple exercise in why this is so:
6 damage is 100% more than 3, but if you subtract 2 damage for AC, then you get 4 damage vs. 1, resulting in an *effective* gain of 400% more damage.

If you want to compare post-AC gains to damage, you have to do it per-creature, since AC varies pretty widely.

Since fighting is, itself, a percentage bonus, it doesn't effect the pre-AC percentage bonus to damage (Although obviously it effects the net, post-AC percentage bonus for the same reasons that any bonus to damage does)

It really doesn't make much sense to talk about post-AC and percentages since you can pick any given point in the AC line to get a different number for your percentage bonus.

[Wahaha]

Yeah Okawaru with UC is absurdly good early. Not so much after midgame but what matters is before that point. Still really good until the end. You didn't even mention how heroism gives +5 to other skills like dodging and armor too on top of the huge UC damage increase.

I haven't played him since the piety got nerfed again though (the 2nd piety nerf..?). So maybe he's not that good now idk.

I don't think Okawaru should be nerfed because he's balanced for non-UC weapons. I would prefer a special case like only UC getting +3 instead of +5.

[crate]

Since fighting is, itself, a percentage bonus, it doesn't effect the pre-AC percentage bonus to damage

but you also get +5 fighting skill from heroism, so it actually does matter

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Oka is really good, but he's no trog. You're looking at it through a very narrow lens of transmuters though, for whom oka is really, really good for the reasons you outlined. Also you're looking at things generally from a late game standpoint, although +5 to all fighting skills is good early game too... I wouldn't take wrath into account when talking about god strength.

I pick Oka with weapon-wielders too. Heroism is quite good with those as well, especially if they go with the heaviest 2-handers. Weapon-users also get the weapon gifts, and species other than felids get armour gifts too. My latest character is a felid who doesn't get the weapon and armour gifts, and Oka is still a superb choice, and I would still pick Oka even with the nerfs I suggested.

God wrath does play a role if one tends to fetch all the runes. And Oka's wrath is very manageable compared to most others.

If you're using finesse to kill oka wrath summons you must be a hacker. I assume you meant haste there.

Correct. Brainfart.

I do love me some oka, but he got nerfed enough when corpse sacrificing was lost and heroism cost went up. Also, keep in mind, gods are not intended to be balanced against one another, just to provide different play experiences. If you think Oka is so good that nobody would ever pick some other god over Oka, that would be a problem. If you think Oka is just generally better than Sif, that's not really a problem, because they're so different. Otherwise Chei would have to give you like +100 to all stats to be 'balanced' against the other gods.

Heroism is still cheap enough to be able to use it in every fight where one needs it. Same with Finesse.

My recent experience with felids was the main reason I found Oka to be so powerful. With HP-40% one needs all the extra killing power to finish fights early. With stronger species the god choice is less interesting, because one doesn't really *need* the god powers, it's just something little extra. Trog being the main exception, because no spells is a disadvantage that god powers help to overcome. Chei is another, because they play so differently compared to everything else.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Ever since his piety change I don't think okawaru is very good by crawl god standards. The time at which you get heroism is a crapshoot compared to gods with standard piety on kills, or sif, or fedhas.

But you get Heroism at * piety, and I find it to be extremely strong, and spammable. Why would it be a crapshoot compared to other deities?

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Maybe try other playstyles that don't benefit as much from him?

Or just pick another god even if the synergy isn't as insane?

I like the melee playstyle more than I enjoy playing conjurers or hunters, and Oka is the perfect match for it. I just recently got my first wins with a kobold hunter and a spriggan conjurer, and they both took a lot more effort than my usual characters. Interesting challenge, but harder to play.

So my default is melee dudes, and Oka is just too good for those compared to other gods.

There are many combos that become ridiculously powered in extended. Three-five rune games is where things are mostly balanced IMO. Characters that decide to go extended are usually those that won't die to it.

I agree that extended game is not that interesting when it comes to gameplay arguments, because most characters are strong enough to handle it regardless of the deity--with the exception of Makh, which makes the extended game all too easy compared to any other deity.

But for someone like me, who likes to try to take all the runes, Oka->Makh route is just too good to pass.

[Magipi]

You started by stating the Oka is much better than any other deity, an now it turns out that you like to LEAVE Oka for another deity. This thread is starting to get interesting, please don't stop.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

You started by stating the Oka is much better than any other deity, an now it turns out that you like to LEAVE Oka for another deity. This thread is starting to get interesting, please don't stop.

Oka is a great choice for a standard win, because her abilities remain strong. This changes in the extended game, where one's character is strong enough without Oka's abilities, and Makh's HP for kills becomes the best ability of them all, especially when combined with a disc of storms or Tornado, which become the best killing/healing powers of them all.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I took the time to read all replies the second time, and I found two arguments that I'll try to reply to.

UC+Oka is too good, Oka with others is less good. In a game where one tries to maximize his/her chances of winning, if one specific combination is considered to be too good compared to others, it is a problem worth considering. Oka's abilities are arguably stronger than others, especially with this particular combo, so if something is a no-brainer, it needs fixing.

But Trog. Yes Trog is really strong, because it helps you from the very beginning, compared to all other deities. Trog isn't compatible with transmuters though, because they need spells. Is Trog too powerful? Perhaps, but once you get Heroism on another combo, I'd argue that it becomes even more powerful. One only needs a few levels in invocations to be able to use Okas abilities to the full extent.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

One last argument for Oka is the following: Imagine playing species with -50% HP, and -2 aptitudes all across the board. You're at the risk of dying to one shot for the majority of the game.

Which god would you pick? Heroism is especially good with species with negative aptitudes, because +5 is +5 regardless of the aptitudes. Finesse gives you double damage, so you can still fight the toughest dudes. Which other god would you pick instead?

[Sar]

Fedhas or Trog

maybe Nemelex

possibly Yred, or Kiku

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I think Oka is still a reasonably powerful god, but nowhere near the top of power lists.

That's interesting. Which gods would you rate better? I'm really curious.

[ZipZipskins]

View: reply button is too good compared to others; quick reply is OP

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

Fedhas or Trog

maybe Nemelex

possibly Yred, or Kiku

So Trog again is suggested, and Fedhas. I admit I have no experience with Fedhas, a little bit with Trog here and there.

Apparently Oka, Trog, and Fedhas are the obvious deities, and the others not so much. Maybe all those 3 need a nerf then, if they are the obvious choices?

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

View: reply button is too good compared to others; quick reply is OP

I do appreciate the snarky comment, but you don't really contribute to the conversation.

[lethediver]

I agree with your point about Mak in extended much more than I do your point about Oka. Everyone who's anyone agrees Mak is the go-to god for extended and zigs and I would argue that hurts the game a lot worse than one guy's rather uncommon opinion of Oka's broken-ness.

I highly suspect the only reason you think Oka is so good is because you stick to the one transmuter build so heavily. I thought transmuters were easy too until i started rolling DeFEs of Vehumet.

Even for a transmuter, ashenzari > oka imo. You get higher passive skill boosts to combat AND magic (essential on hybrid builds), plus scrying, and piety goes up faster. Also cursed equipment doesnt matter when its melded most of the time anyway.

[njvack]

If I were gonna change Oka, I'd make Heroism passive, scaling with piety, maybe with less than +5 at the top-end. Fighting boost would improve HP.

I've heard people say this would step on Ash's toes too much; I think they're different enough gods that it wouldn't actually. And anyhow, look at Yred (god of undead allies and some other things) and Kiku (god of slightly different undead allies and some other things).

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I agree with your point about Mak in extended much more than I do your point about Oka. Everyone who's anyone agrees Mak is the go-to god for extended and zigs and I would argue that hurts the game a lot worse than one guy's rather uncommon opinion of Oka's broken-ness.

I highly suspect the only reason you think Oka is so good is because you stick to the one transmuter build so heavily. I thought transmuters were easy too until i started rolling DeFEs of Vehumet.

Even for a transmuter, ashenzari > oka imo. You get higher passive skill boosts to combat AND magic (essential on hybrid builds), plus scrying, and piety goes up faster. Also cursed equipment doesnt matter when its melded most of the time anyway.

My personal "high score" wins went with Ash, she's great. Playing felids was my main motivation of starting this thread: if something is true with the weaker species, it must be true for others as well. Octopodes become pretty much invincible after statue form, and at that point the choice of a deity doesn't really matter anymore.

Oka being good is only true with melee characters I presume. But most dudes are, and not playing a melee char is the exception. My win with a spriggan conjurer would have had little to gain from Oka's abilities, for example. Not that Dith was so great with him either.

[Sar]

I admit I have no experience with Fedhas, a little bit with Trog here and there.

Apparently Oka, Trog, and Fedhas are the obvious deities, and the others not so much. Maybe all those 3 need a nerf then, if they are the obvious choices?

maybe you should try actually playing with other gods before comparing them with the gods you have experience with

that seems like the obvious choice to me in this situation

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

For lethediver: I very much do agree that Makh is too good in extended compared to anything else, and it's a problem that needs addressing.

As for my view that Oka is too good early on, I maintain that the point is valid. +5 combat skills with Heroism, and double damage with Finesse are so strong abilities, that in this thread only objections I've gotten are pretty much Trog and Fedhas, both arguably the strongest deities that exist.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I admit I have no experience with Fedhas, a little bit with Trog here and there.

Apparently Oka, Trog, and Fedhas are the obvious deities, and the others not so much. Maybe all those 3 need a nerf then, if they are the obvious choices?

maybe you should try actually playing with other gods before comparing them with the gods you have experience with

that seems like the obvious choice to me in this situation

That's a fair point, but I can also simulate the situations either on paper, or with fsim. Fsim points me to a place I'm advocating for; it tells me how good the ability really is. So even though I'm less familiar with playing with those other deities, I can be pretty familar with their abilities. This gives me more ammunition in my argument, IMHO, not less.

[dynast]

I would never ditch oka over mak for extended, mak is a good god for beginners since it rewards suboptimal play and, by the time you are doing extended, you no longer need to care about optimal play. Im surprised you didnt mention the "brokeness" of oka's needle stabber gift pack. Btw, i dont consider oka to be "that" good and felid is not a weak species.
Gods that i consider stronger than oka includes Gozag, Nemelex, Fedhas, Trog, Sif, Yred, Veh and Ely, though i wouldnt play half of those gods because they are boring, for me, at least.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

I would never ditch oka over mak for extended, mak is a good god for beginners since it rewards suboptimal play and, by the time you are doing extended, you no longer need to care about optimal play. Im surprised you didnt mention the "brokeness" of oka's needle stabber gift pack. Btw, i dont consider oka to be "that" good and felid is not a weak species.
Gods that i consider stronger than oka includes Gozag, Nemelex, Fedhas, Trog, Sif, Yred, Veh and Ely, though i wouldnt play half of those gods because they are boring, for me, at least.

The main reason for ditching Oka for Makh in extended is either the disc of storms, or Tornado. Both of those basically put you on max HP at all times, so they are preferable to Oka's killing boosts at that point.

So Makh becomes more "optimal" than any other god at that point. Try and clear a Zig without Makh, it's just too dangerous.

As for other gods, I've outlined the reasons why Oka is "optimal" in the early and midgame. Unless you address those, just name-dropping gods isn't going to cut it.

[ZipZipskins]

View: reply button is too good compared to others; quick reply is OP

I do appreciate the snarky comment, but you don't really contribute to the conversation.

You're right, I don't, because I think scrolling through three completely different replies by you is annoying when you could condense them into one post.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

View: reply button is too good compared to others; quick reply is OP

I do appreciate the snarky comment, but you don't really contribute to the conversation.

You're right, I don't, because I think scrolling through three completely different replies by you is annoying when you could condense them into one post.

Fair enough, but I wanted to annoy you just by making this post.

[ZipZipskins]

The power you wield, the power of annoyance. Too great for one person alone to bear.

[ThreeInvisibleDucks]

ou're right, I don't, because I think scrolling through three completely different replies by you is annoying when you could condense them into one post.

But even though I could read minds, I couldn't know what people would want to discuss about. If this thread is all too obvious to you, I'm sorry. I had a real issue in my mind that I thought might be interesting for people to discuss, if it was not, I'm sorry I wasted your time reading it.

[dynast]

The main reason for ditching Oka for Makh in extended is either the disc of storms, or Tornado. Both of those basically put you on max HP at all times, so they are preferable to Oka's killing boosts at that point.

So Makh becomes more "optimal" than any other god at that point. Try and clear a Zig without Makh, it's just too dangerous.

You are digging some heavy memes there, be aware of that.

As for other gods, I've outlined the reasons why Oka is "optimal" in the early and midgame. Unless you address those, just name-dropping gods isn't going to cut it.

Sure, oka is optimal during all stages of the game, those other gods i named are just better.
Trog rage is stronger than heroism, it only gift weapons, he has summons to protect you.
Gozag provides everything oka does and more, also after gathering enough gold you can just buy the orb of zot and leave.
Fedhas mushrooms will kill everything early, after mushrooms get trivial you raise spores and after that oklobs.
Sif is broken if you play as a summoner, but you have to play as a summoner otherwise its a ok god.
Veh speeds up(in a consistent way) the process of getting stronger as a spellcaster.
Ely has life protection, a skill that can one shot most enemies, healing on demand and a huge hp boost.
Also Kiku, who i forgot to mention, good book gifts, lets you hide behind a army of undead and cover your escape with miasma.

[ZipZipskins]

My issue still isn't with the content of the thread nor do I think the content of the thread is "all too obvious"

As a matter of fact I don't think that Okawaru is too good compared to other gods. I think if you're fortunate enough to get the notoriously shaky heroism off the ground Okawaru is a solid god but no more than that, because some truly overpowered gods exist

My issue is that you can edit posts and add content to them after the fact so that you don't need to make a new post every time you have a thought, did you know that?