Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation


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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 02:06

Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

As the title says. The other tier 3 mutations change a Demonspawn's gameplay in noticeable and interesting ways. Robust certainly isn't weak (some believe it to be the strongest option), but it's definitely less interesting and less flavorful than the other available mutations.

Unfortunately, it's very strong in addition to being very boring, so just removing it might be too much of a nerf to Demonspawn. Or maybe not! I'm certainly not an expert player (or even a very frequent one), so I don't really know for sure how the various mutations stack up in power level, although my one-and-only ascension had a lot of fun blowing orbs of fire up with the hellfire mut.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 02:20

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

In my opinion, robust changes the character more than any of the other tier 3 facets except maybe augmentation. Although maybe that just highlights how unnoticeable fire, cold, and negative energy facets are.
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Dis Charger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 03:09

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

Yes the evocable ability deal 3d48 damage that ignores AC and EV at the high cost of 15% of your HP is very boring. You could say it's weak, or too risky to use, but it's definitely not boring. (Yea Augmentation and Robust are likely the most powerful tier 3's, but I can't help but agree that they are also fairly boring; it's like the Okawaru of Tier 3 mutations, arguably one of the best gods, all boring abilities).
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 03:15

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

duvessa wrote:In my opinion, robust changes the character more than any of the other tier 3 facets except maybe augmentation. Although maybe that just highlights how unnoticeable fire, cold, and negative energy facets are.


I mostly agree with this. Robust has really shitty flavor though, I normally don't suggest this but adding something a bit more interesting and gimmicky to it seems like it would go a long way towards improving it as a whole. It wouldn't even need to be anything significant, just something very flavorful so Ds players don't feel ripped off getting the non-unique ability.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 03:22

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

...Are Ds players ever actually disappointed by getting robust?

Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 04:44

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

duvessa wrote:...Are Ds players ever actually disappointed by getting robust?

+1

I'm assuming the disappointed ones are fans of that "ugly thing" race proposal that refuses to die? Also the one's who are disappointed that Ds can no longer get throw flame as a mutation?

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 04:47

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

Robust is one of the funner DS mutations in my opinion.

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 04:49

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

duvessa wrote:...Are Ds players ever actually disappointed by getting robust?

As I said, it's not a weak mutation, just a boring one.

There are players who would be very happy about getting robust over the other alternatives, but that's because it's the strongest option, not the most fun and interesting one.

In an alternative universe where it was considered to be on par with or slightly weaker than the alternatives, I don't think anyone would be happy to get it.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 06:37

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

I think having more HP is not as fun as Powered by Death(well, that's basically having more HP too), but I do think that it is fun/not boring and would not want it removed. It always makes me happy when I get it, it's exciting largely because of how powerful it is. Like "man, I am totally gonna shit all over the rest of this game, oh boy".

Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 10:49

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

Imho ice and neg energy 3rd facets are a lot more boring. Since they don't do anything. Wel ok, Ice gives rc+ I guess.
Black mark used to be good when it still gave vampirism (even against demon/undead). Now it really doesn't do anything.
I think those should be made more interesting first before fixing a facet that isn't broken.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 11:06

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

I don't think black mark ever did very much. The first two levels may as well be nothing, and getting the third level generally happens within the final few XLs. Same complaint about hellfire.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 12:53

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

FWIW I'll not be disappointed to get Passive Freeze on my current Ds because I can cast Freezing Cloud. Or to get Hellfire if I can also find Ignite Poison, because I could switch to Poisonous Cloud. But Robust or Augmentation will be better overall.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 17:20

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

I can see why it might seem boring, but it's really, really not. Now hellfire, I had that on a recent monstrous Ds of qaz and that was boring as hell.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 17:44

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

duvessa wrote:...Are Ds players ever actually disappointed by getting robust?


I am, but I like Ds no matter what though.

But that's just me, other players might disagree completely.
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 18:50

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

I do think getting a regular mutation instead of some unique one is kind of disappointing when you are playing a race that gets a ton of unique mutations, power levels aside. Then again, you're guaranteed an aux slot mut and those aren't unique either.

But yeah, it's so much better than other slot 3s except for maybe aug (which is great). Maybe Nightstalker should be slot 3 (would make scumming for/against it harder though). Maybe some slot 3 muts should be buffed.

Edit:
ydeve wrote:I'm assuming the disappointed ones are fans of that "ugly thing" race proposal that refuses to die? Also the one's who are disappointed that Ds can no longer get throw flame as a mutation?

If we're playing "baseless assumptions", I assume the people who are extremely happy to get robust are too bad at Crawl to win a normal HP race and find Trolls and Ogres too hard because of armour restrictions?
Last edited by Sar on Saturday, 5th March 2016, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 18:51

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

Before they changed it, black mark was pretty fun. If i were to suggest a tier 3 facet it would be demonic language:
level 1 - Flip off: You gesture at a single target enemy, causing it to go into a frenzy.
level 2 - intimidating monologue: You preach to nearby creatures about their final moments, causing fear and mass confusion.
level 3 - Gesturing: you can cast spells and abilities without speaking.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Saturday, 5th March 2016, 19:15

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

heh that sounds like great fun, Dynast. I'd make flip off check MR/HD and maybe have a breath timer, and instead of intimidating monologue, make it so that when monsters who haven't noticed you hear your shout, they become badly drained (or stunned if they're not living, I guess). Boo! heh heh
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 9th March 2016, 19:30

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

Everyone likes getting robust with demonspawns belive me :)
Formicid Lyfe

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Post Wednesday, 9th March 2016, 19:51

Re: Robust is too boring to be a Ds tier 3 mutation

At level 3 it should make your large, RIP your equipment/EV.

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