Race proposal: Moon Troll


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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:25

Race proposal: Moon Troll

Discovered on the Moon long ago by the earth mage Lehudib, Moon Trolls are an ancient race of hairy lunar brutes that are significantly more sophisticated than their earthly cousins. Like normal Trolls, they are large (Large), razor-clawed (Claws 1), and have a voracious appetite (Gourm, Metab 3, no extra racial bonus) - but the similarities seem to end there. Unlike Trolls, they are skilled with magic, and can actively draw from their magical reserves to protect themselves (+Spirit, toggle, no penalty for switching on). Instead of regenerating health, they regenerate magical energy (RegenMP), and can also derive energy from the flesh they so voraciously consume (2+2d(XL/3) MP back per chunk eaten). They can even draw magical energies from foes through their bites (Fangs 1, AM bite 1/2), though to a much lesser extent than Vine Stalkers can.

They are much more flimsy than their size would suggest, and are terrible with most sorts of physical combat - a reflection of their peaceful ancestry - but can make do with their claws, and can throw large rocks. On the other hand, they are strong, intelligent casters, and though they have a terrible time with some of the more volatile elements of magic, they are perfectly suited to their native elements of Air and Earth.

Finally, as a race so foreign to this world yet so long-lived, they have as much trouble gaining experience as Demigods do.

Mutations:
Fur 1 (2 at XL6, 3 at XL12).
Claws 1
Fangs 1
Mana Chunk (restore 2+2d(XL/3) per chunk eaten)
AM Bite 1/2 (they gain half the MP as do VS from their bites).
MPRegen 1 (Effect of "MPRegen)
+Spirit

Aptitudes:
Fighting: -3
Short: -5
Long: -5
Axes: -4
Maces: -3
Pole: -4
Staves: -3
Unarmed: -1

Throw: 0
Slings: -1
Bows: -4
Cross: -1

Armour: -4
Dodging: -2
Stealth: +2
Shields: -2

Spellcast: +1
Conjur: +1
Charms: +2
Hexes: -2
Summon: -2
Necro: +1
Transloc: +2
Transmut: +2
Fire: -3
Ice: -3
Air: +2
Earth: +2
Poison: -3

Invoc: -1
Evoc: +1
Exp: -2

HP: 0
MP: +2

Attributes: 5 Str, 8 Int, 3 Dex, +S/I every 4th level.
+5 MR / XL

(AN: These seem very strong magically, having access to fast MP restoration; that being said, I imagine them being tough because of their terrifying lack of HP and defenses.)

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:31

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Dear god, we've come full circle

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:35

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

duvessa wrote:Dear god, we've come full circle


No, they're actually quite bad at summoning.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:38

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

duvessa wrote:Dear god, we've come full circle
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
More on topic, why do trolls have to be terrible with bows?
Spoiler: show
Image
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:49

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

TehDruid wrote:
duvessa wrote:Dear god, we've come full circle
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
More on topic, why do trolls have to be terrible with bows?
Spoiler: show
Image


Trees don't grow on the moon. Bows are the natural product of spears (require trees) and string (require plant or hair or asbestos-like material). Rocks can be thrown, slings can throw rocks, and crossbows can throw rocks - crossbows which can be made of stone to throw stones.

But not bows.

Now, trolls in GENERAL ... I don't know. It probably has something to do with the fact that their claws would snap bowstring like a razor snaps fishing line.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 00:56

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

The moon sure is a magical place.

Hold on, they have no hp boost or no hp at all?
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:20

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Nice try but I would never approve a new species with -2 Summoning apt. Also, according to official DCSS lore, Lehudib preferred to be referred to by the title of 'Lunar Mage' rather than 'Earth Mage':

  Code:
Lehudib, whose famous writings on earth magic left few personal details, is
said to have studied the power of magical crystal with single-minded devotion
and in the most distant location imaginable. After traveling to some
forgotten Moon and carving a fortress into its very surface, the wizard
somehow convinced the bizarre surface creatures there to stand guard. Who can
say what other knowledge this self-described Lunar Mage learned in such
isolation? Adventurers who manage to reach the remote Moon Base of Lehudib
may indeed find powers beyond their comprehension.


In all seriousness, some of us had discussed the idea of having a giant species that was good at magic, somewhat akin to the old "Ogre Mage" species, but this never got anywhere. I'm not excited for *another* species with innate anti-magic, and some of those aptitudes look weird to me. The whole "Large caster species" thing is probably a bad idea, to be honest.

On the other hand, if it got in, this would be the THIRD time this particular minmay joke spiraled out of control into a dubious thing that actually made it into the game, which would probably annoy him a lot. That's one major positive aspect of this species' design imo.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:35

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

"Know what would be a good idea?"
"What?"
"If we put Gh, DD, VS, and Tr into one race but then made it really bad."
"Sounds good."
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:41

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

also, we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:43

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

dynast wrote:The moon sure is a magical place.

Hold on, they have no hp boost or no hp at all?


Of course, they have OHP. That's because the surface's atmosphere is absolutely toxic to them. They get all their not-dying from their mana. That's why it's so important.

Jokes aside, 0HP just means they have a Hu-like modifier (except, of course, that they advance XLs at such a snail's pace that they might as well be Kobolds*).
Last edited by Hurricos on Thursday, 18th February 2016, 02:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:48

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hirsch I wrote:also, we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres.


Don't kid yourself. Ogres make worse casters than Centaurs. Their across-the-board average aptitude is better than only two races: Minotaurs and Trolls.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 01:52

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

tabstorm wrote:"Know what would be a good idea?"
"What?"
"If we put Gh, DD, VS, and Tr into one race but then made it really bad."
"Sounds good."


Sure, except the bad part. If you throw this many racial gimmicks at the wall at once, it's as sure to stick as gum to a desk.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 02:45

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hurricos wrote:
Hirsch I wrote:also, we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres.


Don't kid yourself. Ogres make worse casters than Centaurs. Their across-the-board average aptitude is better than only two races: Minotaurs and Trolls.

so what? you don't need to cast level 9 spells. their aptitudes are perfectly ok to cast the most basic ones, and considering they have so much HP, and good aptitudes in lots of stuff, there's enough EXP to spend.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 02:49

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hirsch I wrote:
Hurricos wrote:
Hirsch I wrote:also, we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres.


Don't kid yourself. Ogres make worse casters than Centaurs. Their across-the-board average aptitude is better than only two races: Minotaurs and Trolls.

so what? you don't need to cast level 9 spells. their aptitudes are perfectly ok to cast the most basic ones, and considering they have so much HP, and good aptitudes in lots of stuff, there's enough EXP to spend.


You are not making the distinction between ogres and this race, then; Ogres can cast but cannot cast WELL; *this* race CAN cast well, and that's the reason I suggested it with all the gimmicks it has.

Your suggestion that Ogres could cast sounded as though you were saying that we had a giant race that can cast *as well as Moon Trolls could*, which just simply isn't true.

Either way, this isn't so much about having a giant race that can cast as it is about having a race that sacrifices defenses and puts up with big race problems in order to get some of the stronger gimmicks (chunk mana, MPRegen) and best aptitudes available for casters. Being big is not the good thing about this race like it is with Ogres (where being big means giant clubs, giant HP and large rocks - MT only gets one of these!)

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 03:08

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hirsch I wrote:
Hurricos wrote:
Hirsch I wrote:also, we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres.


Don't kid yourself. Ogres make worse casters than Centaurs. Their across-the-board average aptitude is better than only two races: Minotaurs and Trolls.

so what? you don't need to cast level 9 spells. their aptitudes are perfectly ok to cast the most basic ones, and considering they have so much HP, and good aptitudes in lots of stuff, there's enough EXP to spend.
By saying "we already have a giant race that can cast, Ogres," you're suggesting that the other large races (Ce, Na, Tr) are worse at casting. Centaurs and nagas are universally better at casting than ogres, and trolls are mostly better at casting too.
gammafunk wrote:On the other hand, if it got in, this would be the THIRD time this particular minmay joke spiraled out of control into a dubious thing that actually made it into the game, which would probably annoy him a lot. That's one major positive aspect of this species' design imo.
Being the third time isn't what makes it remarkable. What makes it remarkable is that it's a serious race proposal that is ultimately derived from a joke race proposal with the same name and properties.
It's like if Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" was released in 1976, and then Stevie Wonder got inspired by "Amish Paradise" and wrote "Pastime Paradise" in 1995, then in 1996 Coolio was inspired by "Pastime Paradise"... and wrote "Amish Paradise" as a completely serious song, without realizing Weird Al's "Amish Paradise" ever existed. Well, except that Stevie Wonder could probably draw a better moon troll tile.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 07:16

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Trolls make excellent casters. I should know. I won one with 42 Int. Such smart creatures. [Nah, I'm just a weird player that will stack a bunch of +Int artifacts to use Statue Form, cBlink, (an assortment of level 5-6's) and Shatter in extended. :P ]

EDIT: I do think there's a place for a large caster race; high HP, high MP, but otherwise low defenses and probably bad at melee. Be more like DE/Og than this though.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 07:59

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

bcadren wrote:EDIT: I do think there's a place for a large caster race; high HP, high MP, but otherwise low defenses and probably bad at melee.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:03

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Moon trolls make great AEs because their natural environment, the moon, has so much air you know to practise with.

You ever seen a moon tornado, son? I reckon not, seeins how your livin an breathin today.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:32

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

daggaz wrote:Moon trolls make great AEs because their natural environment, the moon, has so much air you know to practise with.

You ever seen a moon tornado, son? I reckon not, seeins how your livin an breathin today.


Keep it in context: Crawl's Moon has air on it, seeing as Lehudib's Moon Base is a thing and you can survive in it.

What it doesn't have is water or warmth.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:35

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

duvessa wrote:
bcadren wrote:EDIT: I do think there's a place for a large caster race; high HP, high MP, but otherwise low defenses and probably bad at melee.
naga


Na have some of the best defenses of any caster, owing to their scales PLUS barding PLUS good shield usability (15 Shields to remove large shield penalty? Yes please). They're also extremely good at melee - constriction is a gargantuan benefit once you get it.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 08:40

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hirsch I wrote:you have to be alive to cast.
duvessa, well, trolls are better because they are impossible to lose with if you are paying attention, not as casters specifically. so are centaurs. do you think Nagas are better than ogres at casting? the slow movement makes them too vulnerable, and impossible to kite with...


They also have nearly as much HP (more than ANY OTHER race but Og until XL27, yes this includes Tr which have a -2 Fi apt and -1 XP to Na's 0 so Na will have more health), SIGNIFICANTLY better defenses (can wear helmets / gloves / normal armour / bardings / +7 AC base), more MR, SInv, higher base int, higher random int (4SID instead of 3S for Og) ... the list goes on for reasons why Na are way better casters. Moving isn't an issue anyways if you pick Wz - just use blink if you need to not be next to something. I mean, this all comes before the fact that they learn spell schools just about twice as fast as Ogres do, and have an incredible stealth modifier and skill to boot, meaning they can get away with a lot very easily early-game. That, and poison spit cleans up D:1-5 like a charm, and rPois means they don't die to early adders and moccassins like Ogres do.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 09:46

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hurrcios wrote:poison spit cleans up D:1-5 like a charm

you have failed to use that ability

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 10:43

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

I feel like this question needs to be asked: What is honestly that interesting about a large species? That they can use Giant spiked clubs? That they don't wear armor? To me, a large species has good HP and can wear shields effectively and thats the extent of it. Is that interesting? Good HP is always nice, and changing the way shields work rather than having higher aptitudes is definitely more interesting. But we have enough large species in the game, just because we don't have a large species that can't wear most armor and lacks any positive aptitudes doesn't mean we have a niche to be filled.

I really don't see the appeal of this species idea. Its not bad, its definitely not a bad suggestion, but it lacks a purpose. The big thing you have to ask yourself when making a new species is "Will this lead to some form of unique gameplay that I can't get with other species?" and if the answer is no then odds are your race won't end up in the game.

That doesn't mean the species doesn't have potential, but I'm not really seeing the point of it yet.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 10:49

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

They are huge, that means they have huge guts.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 11:01

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Sar wrote:They are huge, that means they have huge guts.
Do they have Big Pecks?
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 11:45

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

duvessa wrote:Dear god, we've come full circle


What came first: your species proposal, or the invisible tornado monster thing?
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 14:55

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

I think a lot of people are taking this post as a joke ... It's on cyc for a reason, but that's not because it's a joke ... It's because it's farfetched.

I genuinely believe that if these gimmicks and aptitudes are put together, they'd make a solid (if very strange) racial makeup.

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 15:05

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Not so sure about the whole "no HP" thing. A DEWz starts with 7mp, a skald 6 and a warrior 3. That would be your starting hp on a no AC/EV race.
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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 15:22

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Sar wrote:They are huge, that means they have huge guts.


RIP AND TEAR YOUR GUTS

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 22:44

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

I hope we can get back to the topic on hand ....

I am fully confident that with their high Int, great apts and excellent means of mana regeneration, these dudes will be great casters. Considering they have so many characteristics that are similar to other races' gimmicks, I'm thinking of actually attempting to integrate these in a branch ... Does anyone have any opinions about the actual specifics of the race?

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Post Thursday, 18th February 2016, 23:10

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hurricos wrote:Does anyone have any opinions about the actual specifics of the race?

They already have *MPRegen mechanic, so I don't think there's any reason to steal Vine Stalker's main mechanic as well. I'd just tweak the one mutation to desired effect.

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 03:57

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

scott9027 wrote:
Hurricos wrote:Does anyone have any opinions about the actual specifics of the race?

They already have *MPRegen mechanic, so I don't think there's any reason to steal Vine Stalker's main mechanic as well. I'd just tweak the one mutation to desired effect.


What do you think about drawing MP from consuming chunks?
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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 04:06

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Okay, I moved all the troll vs. ogre stuff and other assorted stuff to its own thread.

Hurricos wrote:What do you think about drawing MP from consuming chunks?

Given that chunks are the worst part of the game, I feel pretty uncharitable toward this idea. It's a lot like corpse sacrifice or ghoul eating, both of which force you to interact with every corpse that drops, and not in a Hypothetically Optimal way, just in a normal and obvious optimal way.

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 05:06

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

If you really want the food to mana thing, just give them an on demand channel ability with a hunger cost. Then there's less of the fiddling around with chunks nonsense.

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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 06:11

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

ydeve wrote:If you really want the food to mana thing, just give them an on demand channel ability with a hunger cost. Then there's less of the fiddling around with chunks nonsense.


Or perhaps mana on kill? Flavored as "able to absorb the spirits of their enemies?"
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Post Friday, 19th February 2016, 07:10

Re: Race proposal: Moon Troll

Hurricos wrote:
ydeve wrote:If you really want the food to mana thing, just give them an on demand channel ability with a hunger cost. Then there's less of the fiddling around with chunks nonsense.


Or perhaps mana on kill? Flavored as "able to absorb the spirits of their enemies?"

it already steps on the toes of half the races, no need to make it do so with two gods as well.
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